Talk:Táltos
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Pls let me have a little time to search for reference. I have this info from several books. Abdulka 14:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Deleted lines
Alensha, if you explain why you have deleted lines, I am ready to follow your ideas. But if you have just deleted by sport, then let it this way. Abdulka 16:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Source for great kings' shamanistic reputation, treating it as a folk belief
Maybe the following source can help in the discussion of the debated lines:
I have found yesterday a description of a local folk belief, cited by Diószegi Vilmos[1]
| “ | Mondáink küzül a Kyffhäuser-típust kell megemlítenünk, amelyben „kedves királyairól és vezéreiről — amint Szendrey Zsigmond (1922, 59) írja — a nép azt tartja, hogy nem haltak meg, csak elrejtőztek és eltemetkeztek — míg az ország végső veszélybe jut.” (Uő. 1920, 52) A szatmármagyei Kőszegremetén például Béla királyról tartják azt, hogy „nem igazán halt meg, csak elrejtezett” | ” |
(Link added. Indirect citation's bibliography is in #Indirect citation.)
Maybe, according to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, more specially, Wikipedia:Verifiability, it is possible to describe the topic of great kings' shamanistic reputation in some popular beliefs, but (till other sources are found), only as a local folk belief.
Physis 19:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Diószegi Vilmos's remark (cited above), seems for me to be a subsidiary remark. The author regards the táltos concept as rooting in shamanistic remnants in Hungarian folklore. Many shamanistic cultures do not have kings. In some cultures, the shaman is a disjoint role (and person) from the political leader (some South American Indian cultures), in other cultures the shaman may have more complex roles (some Siberian peoples), but many hunter-gatherer cultures do not have explicit leaders at all, the shaman's role restricted to the affairs of magic (some Eskimo peoples[2]). The táltos reputation of great kings seems for me to be a secondary phenomenon, a local folk belief which evolved in retrospection, an epiphenomenon, a side effect of the mixing of the intruding feudalism with ancient shamanistic remnants. But maybe the great kings themselves did not regard themselves as táltos, maybe neither did their contemporary subjects regard them so. The source about the táltos reputation of great kings seems for me to be an interesting and illuminating example how clashing ideas may interfere during history, and how certain features of shamanism (fortune-telling) may survive in some local folk beliefs by sticking to new social instutitions (notion of kingdom); but the intrinsic, essential features of the táltos concept seems for me to be rooting in shamanistic practices, which must be studied by tools of ethnographical and comparative methods, based on materials provided by Hungarian ethnographic records, and field works in Siberian shamanism, possible use of written historical resources with source criticism; discussed inside the paradigms of cultural anthropology.
Physis 17:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Maybe another interesting example of interference of new institutions with ancient shamantic beliefs: Shamanism was persecuted in the late 1940s on the Taymyr Peninsula. A Nganasan shaman was imprisoned. Later, he was released. He had several helping spirits, most of them representing animals, and the shaman used them e.g. for illnesses etc. But one of the helping spirits, named Mikulushka, was an iron horse, it represented Soviet power for the shaman, and the shaman used him only in official things. (see description and incantation examples).
Physis 03:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Also Hoppál mentions a phenomen which may be related to the topic of “shamanistic reputation of great kings”. After the entering the Pannonian Basin (but yet before adopting kingdom and Christianity), in the already stratified society, there might be kinds of shamans who filled in laudatory functions for the leaders. (Of course, there were also shamans filling in "ordinary" curing functions, like in Siberia.)[3]
In summary: I still think that all these are syncretisms, thus, being not inherent of shamanistic features of Hungarians. I think shamanistic features of Hungarians are more related to shamanism in Siberia.
Physis 15:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Notes
[edit] Bibliography
- Diószegi, Vilmos [1958] (1998). A sámánhit emlékei a magyar népi műveltségben, 1. reprint kiadás (in Hungarian), Budapest: Akadémiai Kiadó. ISBN 963 05 7542 6. The title means: “Remnants of shamanistic beliefs in Hungarian folklore”.
- Gabus, Jean (1970). A karibu eszkimók (in Hungarian). Budapest: Gondolat.
- Hoppál, Mihály (1998). "A honfoglalók hitvilága és a magyar samanizmus", Folklór és közösség. Budapest: Széphalom Könyvműhely, 40–45. ISBN 963 9028 142.
[edit] Indirect citation
- Szendrey, Zsigmond (1920). "Történelmi népmondák". Ethnographia — Népélet XXXI: 52.
- Szendrey, Zsigmond (1922). "Magyar népmonda-típusok és tipikus motívumok". Ethnographia — Népélet XXXIII: 59.
[edit] Táltos is not a Shaman!
Be careful! Without questioning Mr Dioszegi's work done in Syberia, pls don't forget that this theory is outdated now. There is NO connection between shamans of Finno-Ugrian origin and Hungarian taltos. The main differences are:
- shamans LEARN to be shamans, while taltos get their power during prenatal period
- shamans use external matters to go into mediation, taltos do not need anything. In fact you cannot distinguish taltos from ordinary people
- shamans usually do some kind of acting (dancing, mumbling, etc) when they are in "operation", taltos are without any movement
- taltos could be female
The most important point is that the powers of Shaman are NOT directly from metaphysics! The Hungarian tradition is full of metaphysical aspects (ie. the Doctrine of St Stephen's crown)and is difficult to understand with our "materialised" mind today.
The shaman is relating to "javas" in Hungarian. They were also similar to Taltos, the tradition is still living in "javasasszony" (curing lady). They have learnt their profession from their mother and the mother was selecting from their daughters who could be the best fit for this profession. This profession, in fact, was (is) very painful and difficult.
{ One more important thing: taltos concept is NOT A BELIEF, there are still living. One example is in Oroszkút, Erdély (Transylvania), a dead-end village, where there is a "János bácsi". All táltos has a mission from God. His mission was to re-start Csíksomlyói búcsú. This was harassed bz Romanian authorities, when the Romanian army was having military excercice every year exactly at that date. The hill was very much destryed. He, knowing nothing about the politics, told every body his mission is to help people to have again this "búcsú". In 1962, if I remember well, Romanian authorities did not order excesise for the army. Was it beause of external politics? Possible, but how could this old man know everything in advance? }
For this reason I will remove all indication to shamanistic remnants, while keeping respect to Mr Dioszegi's work. Abdulka 10:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
