Talk:Szlachta

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Contents

[edit] RE:

I did not read all coments here, BUT: as a re to some of you

Yes if you what the historical facts you need the word 'szlachta'! this is due to the fact, that the polish gentry has a differ a lot from thet of thier neighbors.

and yes the 'szlachta' considert them self as nobels NOT citizens! one has to also see this in the european context of noblemen. best proof is that the 'szlachta' could marry with other nobles in europe. citizens were not permited. Poland also had citizens. eg: the cities Gdansk/Danzig e. a.

before you make wied statements read up. But make sure you dont just use one sided books. (like polish school books ... wuppy! Poland is the holly nation [ironic]) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.93.41.161 (talk) 10:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Old talk

Do we really need this term 'szlachta' ??? let's stick to the 'noblemen'.

This is about specific Polish-only class, not general Noblemen. --Taw

Not really, there was Nobility in all European states. In some states it was as highly privileged as in Poland. In some countries it was just a mere paper title. But in all of them it is called "nobilitas" - Nobility. The word "szlachta" in today's Polish has w very broad meaning, covering both the historic Polish nobility as well as some burlesque knoghthoods conferred by today's monarch. But this article is about the original nobility.


Hello, guys. Maybe you have forgotten to give some information about ukrainian gentry, haven't you ?

Hello Polish contributors -- Could you plese try to remember that, in English, we use a lot of articles -- 'a', 'an', and 'the' -- before nouns? It would help a lot. Also, if you are going to keep a term in its native language (unless it is common English usage) the term should be italicized every time. Finally, it would be very nice if you would provide pronunciation guides for polish words. One of the reasons so many Eastern European cities are known by their German names is that English speakers have long been more familiar with German (plus the fact that German was the Imperial language...). If you want the correct Polish names to gain currency, people need to be able to pronounce them -- otherwise, they'll look for easier, non-Polish equivalents that they can remember! Thanks for the help -- HK

Indeed, articles are our problem :D

Anyway, the term is used in british publications as well, although it might not be that popular among the general population... Could you possibly post a link that would lead me to some foreign diacrites chart? Does Wiki support phonetical script at all?

As a temporary solution I will add the polish-for-dummies name version.

BTW, we should consider adding some paragraph describing the differences between polish szlachta and all the other gentry social groups in Europe. Halibutt 19:00, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Corrected the transcription. Please note that the Polish "sz" is NOT the same as the English "sh". -Arael

"Poland was called the Republic (Rzeczpospolita)" I see it like this:

Republika = Republic

Rzeczpospolita = Commonwealth

Hence, I think commonwealth would suit Rzeczpospolita better in terms of style.

[edit] To do

To do list moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Articles. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:17, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Obrazki

Od czasu do czasu wrzucam nowe obrazki do mojej galerii - "niewykorzystanych", zwiazanych z historia, jezeli ktos ma pomysl gdzie powstawiac, niech przebiera :) - Galeria.--Emax 16:56, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] What??

Sarmatian concept enshrined traditions, provincial village life, peace and pacifism, popularised eastern (almost oriental) clothing (żupan, kontusz, sukmana, pas kontuszowy, delia) and looks and right to bear weapons (sabre-like szabla was an almost obligatory everyday szlachta item).
Took a crack at clearing the article up but I have no idea how to rephrase this as I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean.~~e
Thank you for your contribs. You may want to register - it is fast, easy, and gives you access to some more editing tools and personal history, talk and watchlist pages. As for the sentence you mentioned - if you would show the words or part that is unclear, it would help. Most of the specific terms are linked to their own articles. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:09, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I am registered, but I don't really want to log in from my computer at my job, which is where I was when I was working on it. The unclear part is mainly "and looks and right to bear weapons," Looks? ~~e
Hmmm, true. I wanted to say 'appereance' - looks as in 'how do they looked like'. Perhaps if we move look to before the parenthesis it would be better? Sarmatian concepts enshrined traditions, rural life, peace, popularised eastern (almost oriental) clothing and looks (żupan, kontusz, sukmana, pas kontuszowy, delia) and the right to bear weapons (sabre-like szabla was an almost obligatory everyday szlachta item) ? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:40, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Etymology

First off, Poland was around before germany was, and Poland had a government when the germans where still in tribes. Also germans would attack the pole and lose, so the germans took there Word as fear. also the polish had a very free people, yes the szlachta had voting right but also mad up 95% of the military. also you are discribing english noblity in golden freedom not polish, Piotrus. and the polish people are starting to know this.

The word "Szlachta" was borrowed in Romanian as "Şleahtă", with a changed meaning: "a gang or mob of people with dubious intentions" and it's almost always used as a pejorative. Any idea why they became so unfamous ? Bogdan | Talk 14:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I find it highly doubtful. Usually the word is derived of the German term Geschlecht meaning a clan or a family. I guess that both the Polish and Romanian words could have simply the same root... Halibutt 15:20, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)

The Polish word szlachta comes most certainly from Middle High German geslaht (today's Geschlecht), meaning family. One can see that none of you except Halibutt has studied Germanic languages. --Alexvonf 09:50, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not really :) I don't speak German at all (only some sentences from war films, so I'd probably be able to command an infantry squad, but finding my way to a supermarket would be a huge problem), but I studied Polish and Old Polish. Anyway, the Romanian root is highly doubtful. Halibutt 10:08, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
The guy above speaks about borrowing into Romanian, not from. Mikkalai 02:18, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
most Polish terms of Chivalry came from German through the culture of the Teutonic Order and the territory of what later was called West Prussia, i.e. today's Pomorze Gdanskie. As a Polonist you must know it. I doubt if the Romanian language (of uncivilized people under Turkish rule) has had any influence upon Polish terms.
Greetings
--Alexvonf 12:42, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"..."Not really :) I don't speak German at all (only some sentences from war films, so I'd probably be able to command an infantry squad, but finding my way to a supermarket would be a huge problem)..."
Ha ha, I have exactly this same problem! Most of the German words I know, I did, in fact, learn from war movies. I've picked up a few more at university, but I would say the majority of German words I know are still war-movie or war literature-derived. I've been thinking of taking a German class to remedy this problem. It shouldn't be too hard: I don't have to learn a foreign alphabet as with Greek and Arabic, and there are only four types of case-endings to learn, unlike the eight I hear they have in Polish. Eight! No wonder my grandmother has almost completely forgotten how to speak Polish! ;)

Anyway, I think the case for szlactha being German-derived is pretty good; if you consider the preponderance of the evidence: rycerz/ritter, pancerni/panzer etc., it starts to look like to look like most of the feudal terminology was German-derived. The Lech derivation looks like a charming folk etymology. (An interesting comparison would be to see what Bohemian nobles were called. "Czecthta?" I doubt it. Why were the Russian (and I believe Bulgarian) nobility called "boyars," not "Russars" or "Bulgars?" Were they just not as conscious of their roots as the Sons of Lech?)--Jpbrenna 17:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Czech word for Nobility or "Szlachta" in Polish is šlechta, pronounced shlehta. The same in Slovak, although they had only minor nobility of native origin (higher nobles were Hungarian). These two languages are, along with Lausitz-Serbian, very closely related to Polish. Not only feudal terminology , but many Polish words of everyday use, such as "dziekuje" (Czech: dekuji), an expression of chivalrous politeness, are derived from the German language (danke!). All this comes from the mediaeval culture of Chivalry transmitted by noble German and Dutch settlers in the area of Dantzig. An interesting case is the Hungarian term for nobility, nemés, which seems to be derived from the Slavonic expression for "German".
--Alexvonf 20:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lol. The entire Hungarian language is an interesting case from top to bottom :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:29, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You think 8 cases is much? What would you say if I told you that we have 70-and-something declinations? :D
As to the chivalry-related words: indeed, most of them came to Polish either from German or from Latin. However, many of them took the southern route and came to Poland from Bohemia. The very word for a knight - rycerz is derived from Czech rytíř, which in turn was a barbarisation of German ritter (compare with English rider). And who says linguistics can't be fun :) Halibutt 00:22, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the Etymology section needs to be re-written. The meaning of at least two sentences is unclear, and there is no logical 'flow' from one sentence to the next. In fact, the third to last sentence ("Some would even become...") I still don't understand after reading it three times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Star-lists (talk • contribs) 09:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Mr. Brother"

It's a matter of usages in Polish and English. English seldom uses "Mr. + [title]." There may be a few rare exceptions, e.g. "Mr. President" or "Mr. Mayor." But one doesn't say "Mr. Doctor," "Mr. Professor," "Mr. Engineer," "Mr. General" or "Mr. Brother." I find it hard to imagine an anglicized Polish nobleman saying, "Mr. Brother." I think he would say, simply, "Brother." (Cf. "Br'er Rabbit.") logologist 23:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Same with Polish. But Panie Bracie is an exception, and it is fairly important psychological - and cultural - why szlachta used Panie Bracie instead of just Bracie. For starters, saying just Bracie, would make it indistinguishable from the way priests talk - and I believe same confusion would be found in English. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
They do that all the time in German, don't they? Herr Doktor, Herr Professor, Herr Oberst, Herr Graf. And in English, you do hear "Mr. Secretary," "Madame Chairwoman," "Captain, Sir" etc. If the Polish nobility want to say "Mr. Brother," that's their business. Do you really want to find yourself challenged to a duel with szablas over the issue? :P --Jpbrenna 23:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
There is a Russian word "Panibratstvo", most likely derived from Polish "Panie Bracie". It means (usually unwarranted) familiarity of manners.Talk
English nobles once used the same construction; just realize that in premodern Slavic languages, Pane means Lord, not Mister (Pane Bog means Lord God, not Mr. God). "My lord father," "Our lord cousin Norfolk," etc. were part of the etiquette of nobles in Early Modern English (read Shakespeare). Nagakura shin8 (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Szlachta as citizens

I've seen it argued (but can't remember where, so you'll have to treat this as unsourced) that the szlachta are a citizen class and not a noble one. This is a narrow citizenry, in the same manner as Athens or Rome (or the antebellum South) rather than the modern universal citizenry, of course, but there are some citizen-like characteristics to the szlachta, as well as the many noble-like characteristics. In particular, mutual equality and the use of law in their relations with each other are very citizen-like.

I'm not at all sure how to even start putting this into the article - for a start, I'd need to dig up the source and I've just read too much Polish history over the years to even know where to start - but I thought I'd throw it out there as an alternative view for the rest of you to chew over.

I am not sure if I follow your argument - what is the difference between the citizen class and a noble class? I assume you mean class as in the social class? I thought citizen was a broader term, encompassing nobility (i.e. every noble is a citizen, not every citizen is noble). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Noble classes have certain features, like clearly-defined internal hierarchies and orders of precedence, superiority over the rest of the population and exclusive membership, where citizen classes have other characteristics like mutual equality, resolving internal disputes through law rather than appeals to a hierarchial superior, universal membership. The point is that the szlachta were mutually equal and obsessive about that equality, went to law to resolve disputes not to a feudal superior, but were also an exclusive, superior class, based on heredity, so they had some citizen-like characteristics and some noble-like characteristics. Citizen, when it's not a universal term, means something like "participant in the polity". Good comparators would be the citizen class of Athens, the white class in both the antebellum South and apartheid South Africa. --Po8crg 08:55, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I see. Well, it does seem that szlachta was a combination of those two classes. It was a unique society, with no direct equivalent that I know of. It was as distant from the Western nobility as from Muscovy boyars. You make an interesting point in comparing it to Athens/South/SA, yes, I'd agree they were, in many respects, closer to szlachta then contemporary nobility. However there is an important difference between szlachta and SouthA societies: blacks could never join them, however, smart peasants could and indeed formed a significant portion of szlachta. One last point: while szlachta acknowledged law, to say they widely respected it it rather misleading. Quite often, especially in the eastern regions (Dzikie Pola being most notable) szlachta prefered to enforce justice with their own szablas (zajazdy) then wait for courts decision. See Samuel Łaszcz and Stanisław Stadnicki for some examples. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 1496 - Piotrków

The article states that the reasons for this privilige was: "a compensation for the unsuccessful incursion on Moldavia which had decimated the szlachta". However the incursion and the Polish defeat actually took place a year later, in 1497 (Battle of the Cosmin Forest). Until this is verified and explained, I moved this sentence here.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Szlachta has failed, for the following reason:

While very interesting, this article is not referenced well. It has only one source listed and no notes in the article anywhere to show where this fascinating detail comes from. --CTSWyneken(talk) 00:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious tolerance?

Szlachta and Poland in general is anything but tolerant. Ukraine unionist church is great example. QuestPc 13:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It is RELATIVE. And this specically refers to religious matter of a certain era. Poland was the only place in Europe where a non-Christian could occasionally be ennobled without conversion.Galassi 14:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. See Warsaw Confederation (1573).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Please give an example of someone from Szlachta (or other persons of Polish elite) being Orthodox. Also, shall I mention about Polish Counter-reformation?QuestPc 11:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
A large portion of Szlachta had been Protestant at one point or another. Some Ukranian szlachta had maitained Orthodoxy, while most converted or intermarried. And a number of Jews was given the title for services for the state. That's standard scholarchip.Galassi 11:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Also to me it seems that this section isn't balanced enough. The Szlachta-part of the population constituted several million individuals. Surely there must have been many people within this group with extreme views towards people with other religious beliefs; just as there were many people with great understanding towards other creeds. Which of these tendencies were stronger is difficult to prove. One or a few documents don't prove anything, since just by accident a "bad apple" among mostly good apples could be picked; just as the opposite could be true. In any case such claims, as are currently made in the article, must be proven with references. As it now stands it rather gives the reader a feeling that the writer for some reason wants to protect the Szlachta against claims that it would not have been tolerant towards Jews and Non-catholic Christians. --Smallchanges 16:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree with the need for inline citations. For the record, the tolerant faction was dominant from 16th to mid-17th century and, the intolerant, from mid-17th century. The second half of the mid-18th century seems to have been relatively balanced.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

The lead states: "Szlachta (['ʃlaxta] (help·info)) Lithuanian: Bajorai, was the noble class in Poland, Ukraine and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the three countries that later jointly formed the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth." Is this entirely accurate? Many parts of present day countries were covered by the PLC, why is Ukraine singled out? Ukraine wasn't part of the Union of Lublin. JRWalko 23:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Anon vandalism reverted.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rycerz was Strictly Hereditary

The original sentence read:

'A Polish nobleman living at this time before the 15th century was referred to as a "rycerz" (German "ritter"), very roughly equivalent to the English "knight", the critical difference being the status of "rycerz" WAS strictly hereditary; the class of all such individuals was known as the "rycerstwo".'


This was changed to 'the status of "rycerz" WASN'T strictly hereditary ...,' the reason being cited as "correction done in face of strong evidence to the contrary."

This so-called "strong evidence to the contrary" is not produced and stating the rycerz WASN'T strictly hereditary obliterates the critical difference of English knights from the Polish rycerz, and obliterates the very meaning of the original sentence.

Produce the strong evidence to the contrary before making such a change.

The stated hereditary status of the Polish rycerz is based off the work of scholar TADEUSZ MANTEUFFEL, "The Formation of the Polish State: The Period of Ducal Rule, 963-1194" (Detroit, MICHIGAN, U.S.A.: WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY PRESS, 1982), cited in the footnotes.

Keep in mind the period and years under discussion, a time no later than 1400 A.D., and including a hereditary tradition originating much earlier in antiquity. Ties of blood were the strictest assurance of loyalty and solidarity in those ancient times, when warfare was every man's stock and trade. -- Exxess (talk) 20:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Szlachta disambiguation?

Ok, I have no Idea how to give a reference to a PART OF an article. the reason I created this article is that in the fictional universe of The World of Darkness, a 'race' of ghouls exists. These ghouls are created, or fleshcrafted, by the Tzimisce clan of vampires. this 'race' is referred to as Szlachta. I thought it would be good to create a 'see the disambiguation page' for the word szlachta.

Apparently I'm not as good a Wikipedia editor as I thought I was.

Please help...?!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mkruijff (talk • contribs)

I don't think that a minor fictional race fulfills the criteria of WP:N. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)