Talk:Szechuan cuisine

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was oppose

Shouldn't this article be renamed to Sichuan cuisine or Sichuanese cuisine? - Gilgamesh 06:28, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• I agree. The Szechuan romanization is now obsolete; the cuisine referred to is that of the Sichuan province. I have a slight preference for Sichuan cuisine over Sichuanese cuisine only because it seems to be a smoother transition.Djbaniel 22:18, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. Basically all I know about this issue is that the Chinese take out menu says "Szechuan", could you provide some more background or links discussing how this is obsolete? Dragons flight 18:14, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

The issue is that there are several systems for transliterating Chinese. Szechuan is a province in the interior of China, and the PRC uses the Pinyin transliteration, which would be "Sichuan" Septentrionalis 02:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. "Szechuan cuisine" still seems to be the 'most common name' which rules per naming conventions. In fact, I suspect that "Sichuan" should be reverted to "Szechuan" in all cats, etc. per 'most common names', as that I suspect it is most common in other contexts, as well. Niteowlneils 01:07, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. But "Szechuan cuisine" is far better known that "Szechuan", as with Dragons flight; I'm not sure this extends to references to the province, like the cats. Septentrionalis 02:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. True Sichuan is the current spelling for the province, but the Cuisine is known in English as Szechuan Cuisine, just as there's a dish called "Peking Duck" (not Beijing Duck), and Cantonese cuisine uses Cantonese and Wade-Giles romanizations not Pinyin, and it's Cantonese cuisine not Guangdong cuisine 132.205.44.43 16:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Many newspapers now use "Sichuan" cuisine (including the New York Times and The Times (UK)). Peking duck is a particular dish, rather than the region of a whole cuisine, so it doesn't seem to matter if the term is obsolete. 203.48.97.130 06:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 13:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

An outdated discussion can be found above, however what follows below I have posted on the wiki Requested moves page.

15 March 2007 where is this stupid info that I am busting my ass off to find

This article's title does not match its counterparts under the heading "Eight Great Traditions" (of Chinese cuisine). The wiki entry for the province of the same name is "Sichuan", not "Szechuan". Yes, the spelling Szechuan is sometimes used, however in 2007 it is not preferred or correct (just as it's Beijing 2008, not Peking 2008) Moreover, it does not conform with the rest of the wiki references to Sichuan (and the correct pinyin spelling of other Chinese cuisines and provinces) The alternative spelling "Szechuan" can be clearly referenced in the article instead. An outdated discussion exists on the current talk page, however it is now time to unify the spelling of Sichuan in wikipedia. —Djwatson 03:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally I don't think this is controversial- it's just clear that the spelling needs to be the same across wikipedia. I have tried to move the article but can not. I am requesting for an administrator to kindly move the article to its new name. Djwatson 03:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• Oppose in English it is more commonly known as Szechuan, regardless of how People's Republic of China officially romanize things nowadays. 70.55.91.139 05:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's still more commonly called Szechuan cuisine. The article itself mentions that the official pinyin is Sichuan, but I don't see food advertised as Sichuan. In fact, I still see new products advertised as Szechuan. For example, the new Pringles Select chips are still Szechuan. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support There should be a standard romanisation for all Chinese words or words of Chinese origin in wikipedia. LDHan 16:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose as English; there should not be any standard Romanization; to always use pinyin is to accept the authority of the PRC everywhere, never to use it is to deny that authority. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose same argument as last time - True Sichuan is the current spelling for the province, but the Cuisine is known in English as Szechuan Cuisine, just as there's a dish called "Peking Duck" (not Beijing Duck), and Cantonese cuisine uses Cantonese and Wade-Giles romanizations not Pinyin, and it's Cantonese cuisine not Guangdong cuisine 132.205.44.134 21:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support For all the reasons I've listed above and below. :) Djwatson 01:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Although "Sichuan" is the pinyin spelling (sans tones), "Szechuan" is the still-widely-used pre-existing romanization used in this context in English-speaking regions. I don't think we should be in the business of prescribing spellings but reflecting spellings that are already in common use (as with Cantonese cuisine. It would be like changing the Yangtze Delta article to Chang Jiang Delta...oh, wait, some editor has already done that. My preference is to keep the article under Szechuan cuisine, second choice would be Cuisine of Sichuan. But Sichuan/Szechwan-style cuisine isn't just prepared in Sichuan province, it has global scope and ramifications, just as Cantonese-style or Hunan-style do. Badagnani 02:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose: Though Sichuan is the official way that China romanizes words 四川 and itis nowmore commonly being excepted in English speaking regions, when in the words are presented in context of cuisine (四川菜), it is still written as Szechuan cuisine. Perhaps in the future this the move should occur, but as for now Sichuan cuisine should only be a redirect to Szechuan cuisine. Sjschen 04:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Djwatson's arguments are a confused and garbled interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME. Maybe the most common english language name of the region is Sichuan, but the most common english name of the cuisine is definitely without doubt Szechuan. - hahnchen 11:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support, per actually researching the "common name" before casting my opinion.
  • Google test:
    • "sichuan food" - 65,300
    • "sichuan cuisine" - 58,400
    • "szechuan food" - 18,700
    • "szechuan cuisine" - 52,300
  • The Yahoo test gives similar results, as well as non-exact phrase searches. I was actually going to oppose this move before but seeing these results has convinced me to support it. Axem Titanium 05:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • Google (English, sichuan cuisine, not szechuan) 42,000
    • Google (English, szechuan cuisine, not sichuan) 43,200
    • Google (English, szechwan cuisine) 12,400
    • Amazon - Sichuan in food 282
    • Amazon - Szechuan in food 505
    • Amazon - Szechwan in food 298
    • 411.com - Sichuan in restaurants 32
    • 411.com - Szechwan in chinese restaurants 94
    • 411.com - Szechuan in restuarants 423
    • rather a dead heat, though curiously, the malformed Szechwan shows up more often in books than Sichuan does, according to Amazon. Also according to Amazon, Szechuan is 40% more prevalent. But the phone book definitely lists a preponderance of "Szechuan" for North America. 132.205.44.134 22:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

• I hardly think Cantonese will ever be Guangdong Cuisine in English. So your statement that all the Chinese cuisine is spelt using Pinyin is incorrect. 70.55.91.139

• I'll address the issues raised above, and I'm sure everyone would be interested responses.

70.55.91.139: Stop. Did you even read what I have posted above? Did I say all Chinese cuisine is spelled using pinyin? No. I clearly stated that a unification of wikipedia spelling is in order. It is made mention of the Eight Great Traditions. And by the way, it is not "guangdong cuisine", it's yue cuisine (as the wiki article shows). Six of these eight traditions are spelled with pinyin. I agree that Cantonese could remain as "Cantonese" - this seems like the preferred spelling. However to conform with a wiki standard it should be listed first as yue cuisine.

Point out for me, please, where I say "all chinese cuisine is spelt using Pinyin". You did indeed "hardly think".

LDHan is a regular contributor around here and LD's statement "There should be a standard romanisation for all Chinese words or words of Chinese origin in wikipedia" is the crux of this issue. What is so hard to comprehend here? I think it's quite simple. Pinyin is used when describing the Eight Treasures. Pinyin is nearly always used in other sections of wikipedia. Schools and unversities now use pinyin when romanizing Chinese. It's pretty simple guys.

Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント says "I don't see food advertised as Sichuan. In fact, I still see new products advertised as Szechuan. For example, the new Pringles Select chips are still Szechuan." You should read http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BDW/is_41_41/ai_66929482. Just because a product is spelled a certain way, does that mean it is correct? Wow, if this were the case then schools have a *lot* to worry about. You apparently have an interest in Chinese cuisine. Go down to your local chinese grocery store and check out some of the spelling on products there. By your logic everything on the shelves is correct, or preferred.

And, for what it's worth, where I live everything is spelled "sichuan". And I don't live in China, HK or Taiwan :)

Septentrionalis, others at least gave their comments a moment of thought. However what you have written is ridiculous. "to always use pinyin is to accept the authority of the PRC everywhere". Lets not even deal with that loaded statement. Your next statement doesn't make any sense. We'll leave your comment at that.

132.205.44.134, (another person who hasn't bothered to sign in) you state "same argument as before" then proceed to list arguments which I have already dealt with above. "but the Cuisine is known in English as Szechuan Cuisine"... says who, you? Based on what research? Besides that point, this is about unification in wikipedia. See my response to Wirbelwind above if you think a snack box in your pantry qualifies as research.

70.55.91.139 my last statement, and previous discussion, deals with your claim that "in English it is more commonly known as Szechuan, regardless of how People's Republic of China officially romanize things".

After all that, to all those who think "szechuan" is preferrable, I ask: If you're interested enough in Chinese food and culture to post here, if you truly do love the many cuisines of China, then how can you have an aversion to "sichuan"? It is Chinese cuisine after all. Djwatson 01:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, wikipedia articles are located at their most common name, not the most scientific/official/whatever. In this case, even if Sichuan is official, the popular name is still Szechuan. This isn't above loving or hating Chinese cuisine, it's about keeping the same format for wikipedia articles. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

God help me, that's what I'm talking about. Keeping the same format for wikipedia articles. Which is pinyin!

Badagnani, we're talking about a *unification* of pinyin spelling on wikipedia. Let's address that topic, not what each of us thinks is more widely used. "It would be like changing the Yangtze Delta article to Chang Jiang Delta"... case in point. Unification. Then you said "My preference is to keep the article under Szechuan cuisine, second choice would be Cuisine of Sichuan." Please explain? You like "Sichuan" if it's used with "cuisine of" before it?

You say "But Sichuan/Szechwan-style cuisine isn't just prepared in Sichuan province, it has global scope and ramifications, just as Cantonese-style or Hunan-style do." Where is Sichuan food from Badagnani? Sichuan. That's its name. Sichuan food. Despite what Americans, Australians, English and whoever else do to it, it's still from Sichuan province.

A little analogy to finish: I was in France one time and saw that Arnold Schwarzenegger's name had been spelled completely different on a movie poster. I can't recall exactly how it was spelled, but it had been given a definite French twist. His origin is Austria, but he lives in America. Austrians spell it Schwarzenegger. The French spell it otherwise. Sure, both spellings exist, but one is considered correct by the original source. The pinyin spelling of Sichuan is considered correct, by China, by the UN and seemingly by most of wikipedia. Djwatson 03:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

*sigh*, don't misinterpret me. See WP:COMMONNAME on why it shouldn't be moved. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

What is so hard to understand here? The argument is: 1. Pinyin is used through wikipedia. We should conform this article to the standard. WP:COMMONNAME says "Use the most common name of a person or thing". What is most common in wikipedia? Pinyin. And if your response to that is "szechuan cuisine is the most common name for the cuisine", prove it. I have shown otherwise, as listed above.

WP:COMMONNAME also says, by the way, "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." Djwatson 03:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding the guidelines. Most common usage in English overall, not Wikipedia. And it's not confusing, so falling back on the alternative isn't an issue. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so say we forget a standard across wikipedia. I have addressed the issue of "Most common usage in English overall" above. The most common (and more importantly, correct) use of Chinese in English is with pinyin. You just can't deal with the issue at hand can you? I don't really care anymore. If you want to desecrate a language and a cuisine with some obsolete, westernized, inferior name good luck to you. Djwatson 03:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

(parts of this discussion have been removed by Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 06:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC) in the interests of civility . Please don't make attacks but also please don't remove other peoples arguments either)

Szechuan is the way it is spelt in the Eight Great Traditions sidebar. 70.51.8.242 10:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Pinyin is a communist and mandarin dialect imperialism. (facetious comment here:) Imagine if I were to suggest that everything be romanized using Jyutping (which I would much prefer) because 1. Cantonese is an older dialect, and therefore more traditional, 2. Cantonese is more widely used in the worldwide Chinese diaspora, 3. Jyutping is a Cantonese romanization, 4. the last Chinese imperial dynasty was based in the south (Ming Dynasty) and therefore a southern dialect should be used in romanization... 70.51.8.242 10:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Why would you ever use a non-English standardization for the English wikipedia. This is NOT the PINYIN WIKIPEDIA! If you really want to respect the cuisine, you would use a romanization based on the local dialect for each cuisine. 70.51.8.242 10:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because you’ve created a user account doesn’t make you god. Stop denigrating people who are anonymous. 70.51.8.242 10:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think these assertions are not really helpful to the discussion here. Mandarin (putonghua/guoyu) is by far the most widely spoken version of Chinese, whereas a regional variant is only spoken in, or by people from, one particular area. Cantonese (including all varieties) is in fact spoken by 6-7 % of all Chinese people in the world. It is not even the most widely spoken amongst the overseas Chinese, over 75% of the overseas Chinese live in SE Asia, where other southern variants are also widely spoken eg Minnan, Hakka, Chaozhou. All the modern Chinese dialects developed from Old and Middle Chinese, and are different to languages spoken hundreds of years ago, it is inaccurate to say any one dialect is "older". LDHan 12:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I have posted the results of a Google test for usage prevalence above with my (not) vote. Axem Titanium 05:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I love this discussion. It's a great example of those who read, order and idea, think and then formulate a response, and those who don't. Just above this comment, LDHan and Axem Titanium have responded clearly and thoughtfully, referenced, and used cold hard stats and real world analogies to support their case.

However, There's many statements here that unfortunately range from uninformed, to ill thought, to plain stupid.

70.51.8.242 said "Szechuan is the way it is spelt in the Eight Great Traditions sidebar" Thanks for that. After that insightful comment, your sensationalist rubbish about Cantonese being a superior language is an obvious flame, and has nothing to do with this discussion. See LDHan's response above for an answer.

Now, here's one for all you "'Szechuan' is more widely used" advocators. Read this carefully now. Then think. Ready?

This statement does not constitute research. You can't prove that it's more widely used just by saying so.

Head hurts? Judging by responses here that's a lot to take in, so go away, have a drink and come back when you're ready to think some more.

How does my argument stand up? Here's a dot point summary of what I've said so far, just in case you think they're "confused and garbled" like Hahnchen does. Strangely, no one has yet directly addressed anything I've said.

1. There should be a standard romanisation for all Chinese words or words of Chinese origin in wikipedia. And yes, you can seek some sort of perceived refuge in the Wikipedia guidelines all you like (WP:COMMONNAME). Fact is, pinyin is the most widely used Chinese romanization in wikipedia, AND IN THE WORLD TODAY. Yes, that means common name. How can I substantiate this? Read on:

2. The archaic Wade Giles system of romanization is NO LONGER PREFERRED TODAY. I'm talking about current use in the media, by the UN, by schools and universities across the world teaching Mandarin. I'm talking about Beijing 2008. I'm talking about Wikipedia's frequent use of pinyin. I'm talking about the google and yahoo results that Axem Titanium provided.

3. The cuisine comes from Sichuan province. That's it's home. In that province, and across the PRC, the preferred romanization for Sichuan is "Sichuan". China uses pinyin to romanize Mandarin (putonghua). Not Wade Giles. Check point two again now if you're wondering how I substantiate the fact that pinyin is the most widely used, and therefore common name. READ POINTS TWO AND THREE AGAIN NOW IF ALL THAT DIDN'T SINK IN.

4. Because of this pinyin standard that we go by today (if your head hurts here, take a rest) wouldn't it be great to bring the "szechuan cuisine" article up to speed? Of course it would.

Now, think. Formulate. Clearly respond. I couldn't care less whether you agree or disagree. It's just that there are so many ridiculous, thoughtless comments here that seem to have blatantly ignored or misunderstood what I have said, I need to clear things up.

If you want an example of a confused response, read Badagnani's above. He says "I don't think we should be in the business of prescribing spellings but reflecting spellings that are already in common use (as with Cantonese cuisine. It would be like changing the Yangtze Delta article to Chang Jiang Delta...oh, wait, some editor has already done that." That's it. Pinyin.

Wikipedia has changed the name to it's pinyin name. Yep, common use.

Yet he then votes to oppose. He points out that pinyin is the common use, then votes to oppose. Don't go into debating Badagnani. How can I possibly get a point across when such thoughtless counter arguments are made?

There's a disappointing fact about the wikipedia community. Whilst we mostly get great contributions from users who are and are not English language professionals (and, yes I am one), there is a section of wanna be writers out there who would be better off spending their time finger painting. I won't name anyone in particular, lest I violate the almighty WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL.

Read though this entire discussion again, I beg you. Take the time. See what I and others have said first. Then:

Read. Think. Respond.

Thanks. Djwatson 08:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing to respond to here but the comments of a thoughtless and uncivil newbie, who believes that pinyin is the only possible transliteration of Chinese in all circumstances. I therefore decline to reply to such nonsense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "such nonsense" is only inevitable given the political and idealogical point of view assertion of "to always use pinyin is to accept the authority of the PRC everywhere, never to use it is to deny that authority". LDHan 22:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.