Talk:Szczecin

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For archived discussions see:

[edit] Szczecinski.Studenciak.pl

I have decided to remove this link [1]. Why?

This page is in Polish and doesn't contain vital nor important informations.
This page/magazine is not even popular.
There are dozens of such great, cool, super, fresh and funny pages/magazines. Many of them have some relations to Szczecin. Should we put all of them here?
Szczecin article shouldn't be used as internet directory.
Szczecin article shouldn't be used as advertising board.
IMO it's SPAM.

Wally77 09:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stettin vs Szczecin

The name Stettin remains the non-slavic name for this city. There is little reason to try and insist on adoption of a name that is complex to pronounce in many languages. I see nothing helpful for Central Europe, or for Stettin in the present or the future in creating confusion with a different name. In Scotland we retain Gaelic names both on signposts often along with the English equivalent. There is no requirement for one culture to dominate the other. Why would we need to go back and do this? For what end? Hills remain in their Gaelic names, and those of us who are non Gaels continue to use these out of respect, interest and conciliation with the horrors of the past when assymilation was the rage. To insist in the renaming of Stettin seems to me to be confrontational by denying ordinary folk of their past family lines and achievements. To try and do this must be an unrealistic and devisive project in modern Europe where we are trying to learn the essential nature of diversity and it's role in harmony and progress. People in Europe will prosper without barriers. Insisting on name pronouncing crteates barriers.

Gavin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavin1267 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ This page should be officially now listed by Wikipedia as in dispute. It is quite evident mostly Polish people are trying to enforce the Polish Slavic name of Szczecin as a distorted perverse form of English. (This must be suspected as being for political reasons). The absolute majority of native English speakers understand in every instance that the Slavic language version of the city name is not phonetic to us and so extremely difficult to pronounce in English. Why? Because the Slavic name is NOT English full stop.

For several hundreds of years we English speakers have used "Stettin" as this city name on the Oder river. Since 1945 the city was annexed by Poland but this does not apply to our English language usage for the city name.

At all times I respect Polish place names for anywhere in the World as that is their language and their right to apply it so for themselves and their diaspora. This applies to French and Spanish etc etc etc. In this regard I would kindly ask Polish people to please respect our English language and please not try to play silly political games with us with an offensive insistence that the Slavic name of Szczecin be used by us because again and again!! it is Not English.

Therefore I and my many English and American friends consider this page about Stettin to be in official dispute based on what is becoming aggressive Polish political and nationalist activity.

Sincerely

Filsdegilbert (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)John _______________________________________________________

There is no official dispute listing I'm afraid. It also does not count as a dispute on Wikipedia if we have one vocal editor against a solid consensus. Especially if that vocal editor is not responding to the large amount of evidence that his position is incorrect. Please click HERE and check through the links posted for you - the majority of English-language sources today use Szczecin in the English language. Companies, encyclopaedias, newspapers, news agencies, the lot. Even those not based in Poland. This is the point you are failing to address over and over and over again.

It's not a political point - we are just copying the common usage in the English-speaking world. And once more - what makes you think it is mainly Polish people enforcing this here? There seems to be no evidence of that at all - if there is, please post it here for us to see.

It will also make it easier to continue dialogue if you sign in every time you edit or make a comment, and if you sign your posts by wirting ~~~~ at the end of your post before saving it. Thanks, Knepflerle (talk) 09:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Why does the English name for the city not appear? This is the English Wikipedia is it not? Stettin is the English language name and should appear everywhere. Wikipedia has become a joke -Yet Again!! stan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.139.240 (talk) 15:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard any English speaker refer to Stettin as Szczecin, probably because that is somewhat difficult to spell/say as compared to the German version. Seeing as this is an English encyclopedia, I added the English spelling of the word to the spellings section... might just want to do German/English instead. Antman 23:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Please read discussions at Talk:Szczecin/Archive 1 and Talk:Szczecin/Archive 2 (keyword: Stettin). Please see "Gdansk/Vote and this page" section. And then... shhh.... Don't wake the Demons of the City Name... They should sleep... Forever. :-) --Wally77 10:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Poles on the English Wikipedia are eager and happy to rename the English names Oder to Odra, Danzig immediately to Gdansk, and Stettin to Szczecin. Stettin... is the ENGLISH spelling, whether that makes people mad or not, and logically, I can see why, it is VERY difficult for people who speak English to say. Last year I asked 19 people on my street if they could even pronounce Szczecin and each had a disappointing time trying, with 5 or 6 even giving up, and I still have heard no one pronounce it correctly, actually, I have heard no one even pronounce it fully at all. German and English are closely related whether you like it or not, since they are both Germanic languages, and why a difficult name like "Szczecin" would be chosen from a non-related, Slavic, language is completely strange and in fact is illogical, even though Polish nationalists on the English Wikipedia try to enforce Polish names for everything, including towns in Germany, to the English versions expense. People, may I ask....WHATEVER HAPPENED TO REASON? I even tried to explain how Czech Okres, German Kreis, Slovak Okruzi, Russian Krai, Serb Kraj, Pokrajina, Krajina, Ukraine, and Raion are all related, but a few users would not have it, and I have had a hard time of figuring out why.

Just to show you the Names of _______ in Germanic Languages:

Swedish:Stettin Danish:Stettin German:Stettin Dutch Low Saxon: Stettin Low German: Stettin And in truth the traditional English version is actually "Stettin"

Czech Uses Stetin and Slovak uses Stetin

Italian is Stettino

Might I remind everyone that the Stettin Article has NO REFERENCES!The city which was part of Germany even after World War I, and supposed to stay a part of Germany after World War II, and was over 85% German, and was instead annexed by the Soviet union and "rewarded to Poland". By the way, this was all a tactic to expand the Soviet union, Not to help Poland. Thus the 85% population of Germans was then forced to leave, and was conveniently exchanged with Poles. (Something that Winston Churchill strongly hated.) Infact strangely, the name he calls Stettin by is evident in this quote in about 1950:

"From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent."-Winston Churchill, describing the Iron Curtain dividing Europe due to Soviet hyperimperialization.

In fact, sadly, The official Website doesn't even use the Official German Stettin on the German version. They instead use polish in place of it, without telling anyone that no one calls it that in German... (www.szczecin.pl/inwestor/de/)

A few other quotes showing the English name, Stettin:

"It would appear that the natural frontier of Russia runs from Danzig or perhaps Stettin to Trieste." English Translation of Friedrich Nietzsche

"For my part, I have heard the composition at Stettin," - Fraulein Mosebach.

In fact, I once heard on the History Channel, someone use the name "Stettin". And gee, everyone also decides to throw out the other websites that use the only English name, in fact this site, [2], is the English version of the Polish site.... and a Genaeology site which is run by a Pole: Taddeusz Hubert Piłat, and this one too it Even uses the English name on the English version: [3] Hell, heres a treaty with the correct English name: [4]. The Dept. of Navy uses the name Stettin for the town... the Correct name. Even in my National Geographic Collegiate atlas of the world (2006!!) the name Stettin is used... The correct English Name. A Travel site...Using Correct English. [5]. And another sites using the CORRECT English name: [6] [7] [8] [9]

Another article using the Correct Name!: [10]

And another [11]

Even the town in Wisconsin was named after it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stettin,_Wisconsin. Hmm maybe we should attempt to cover up its original name as well? And a ship named after it...[12]

See these articles which also use the correct English name for the town: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stettin_%28icebreaker%29 (No one has even bothered to make a disambiguation page for this until a user recently did) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pocahontas_%28SP-3044%29 [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]

This site Gives Polish names first, and English names Second: [19] ("Odra (Oder)";"Wisla (Vistula)";"Szczecin (Stettin)")

Britannica([20]])..... Gives it as "Szczecin, OR Stettin, Poland"

Hell you can even tell on some articles where someone has hurriedly attempted to add the Polish name : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_August_Dohrn (quote:Born at Stettin(Szczecin Carl August was the son of Heinrich Dohrn,...; someone forgot to add the parentheses..)

You know I would really love for ultimate neutrality to kick in but its very hard with all the manipulating around certain articles... Someone recently vandalized GDANSKs article and removed DANZIG from the double name agreement syntax.... -- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 18:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. I've only been editing Wikipedia for 2 months and I'm already baffled by the level of nationalistic noise on talk pages. But I guess it goes with the territory; as long as this is an open encyclopedia, it'll attract nutjobs. I would have no problem with renaming Szczecin to Stettin because, as you say (and support with abundant proof), that's the city's name in English, end of story. On English Wikipedia we have Florence and not Firenze, Venice and not Venezia, Naples and not Napoli, and the Italians don't seem bothered by that. But try to apply the exact same rule to Poland and you'll have them chewing at your ass before you can say "Chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie". Until there's a clear policy that says names on English Wikipedia must always be listed in English first, and that anyone who breaks the rule gets banned immediately, I don't think we'll be going anywhere, at least not in articles about Poland. I say give them time, it's only been 60 years since the war, don't rub salt into open wounds... ;-) --Targeman 19:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

60 years? Mikołaj Kopernik, famous Polish astronomer, was born over 500 years ago, and some still insist on calling him something else. Did I say 500 years? Over 1000 years ago, cities on the Baltic Sea had the very same name they have today, including diącritics. Too bad nobody bothered to write them down then, but people make ameńds nowadays on English Wikipedia. Since 1946, Poland is the very same it was 1000 earlier. This can be easily proven, e.g. by totally neutral maps published in 1917. :-/ -- Matthead ^discuß! O 00:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. Many people don't know this, but Kopernik (note the typically Polish name) is also famous for his love letters, written in immaculate Polish to his Polish mistress, in which he compares her breasts to the fertile hills of his beloved Poland. That the letters haven't survived till our times is yet another huge German conspiracy, just like their claims that Szczecin was German for a millennium. Keep your filthy claws off God's favorite country, Krauts: its great leader will stop you dirty Teutons from invading again :P --Targeman 02:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

Alright, I've protected the article. I notice no discussion of this stuff on the talk page. Good work guys. john k 02:44, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

John, I agree with the protection, and it should also happen to the articles for Gdansk, Poznan, Wroclaw and any other simalar articles where this edit war occurs. But rather than hashing it out repetitively on each Talk page, can we do so on a single page and develop a standard? Perhaps the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities is the best place? Bwood 03:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There's been much discussion of this before. We never seem to be able to work anything out. But, yes, I think that would be the best way to handle this. john k 04:50, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I'll start a section at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities tomorrow. Something like "Standard treatment of name issues of Polish towns with significant German histories", perhaps. It should also apply to those towns that were occupied by Austria and Russia, as well as other places that I'm less familiar with. Bwood 06:14, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Don't deal with it separately from "Standard treatment of towns with significant Polish history" like Hrodna, Vilnius, Lviv, Kiev etc. Otherwise we will have a problem again. We will please the Poles, but upset Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Belaruses, or the other way around. Space Cadet 06:30, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Are you saying to make it more general? or less general? If more general, then something like "Standard treatment of name issues of towns with significant histories of occupation by neighboring states"? Or should it be even more general? Bwood 06:43, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Very good question. And to make it even harder: Szczecin was never under German, and Hrodna, Vlnius, Lviv, Kiev under Polish "occupation". Space Cadet 07:00, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yup, making it more general would be a good idea. We should avoid double standards. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 07:00, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

I concur (for once) with Space Cadet and Halibutt. I'm not certain how to formulate it properly, though. Perhaps we could just have it on Central/Eastern European city names, or some such. john k 07:38, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, we could include the Hungarian/Romanian/Slovakian and Czech/German naming issues as well. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 10:12, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

Slovene/German issues would be worthwhile, as would German/Hungarian/Slovakian issues (i.e. Bratislava). john k 12:21, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I'll throw a project name on the section, and then let's continue this discussion about scope. Give me about an hour.. Bwood 03:24, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The project is located here: WikiProject Cities/Names issues. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 16:24, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotection

This protection (which has gone on since September 10) was only ever supposed to be temporary. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 20:36, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

All protections are only ever supposed to be temporary. Seeing as no solutions have been reached on either this talk page, or the general policy page where naming issues like the ones that caused this page to be protected are meant to be discussed, I would suggest it continue to be protected. john k 20:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

City Hall

I strongly agree. The bellicose stimulation by edit wars are a far greater danger for Wikipedia and Wikipedians than the protection. Changes can of course be discussed and agreed on on this talk page regardless of if the page is protected or not.
--Ruhrjung 20:08, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)

When is this page going to be unprotected? Because I was going to add this article to Category:Coastal cities, and I can't do that if it's tied up. - Gilgamesh 00:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Because of page protection can admin add City Hall picture ? Image:Szczecin_urzadmiejski.jpg

[edit] New infobox

I'm preparing a new set of infoboxes for all the Polish cities. I'd appreciate if one of the admins replaced the current table with the following:

Template:Infobox Poland

Also note that there are lots of useful PD pics in the Polish and German articles. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 22:47, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Done! [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 07:08, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problem

The photo of Stocznia is allegedly Copyvio (see claim in Polish Wikipedia: pl:Dyskusja Wikipedysty:Jonasz). Nevertheless let's wait until further clarification. Przepla 21:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sound file

Can we get a sound file of the pronunciation? The one we've got my copy of WinAmp tells me has no duration, and it makes no sound. Teucer

No problem, I'll fix that. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:02, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Well, both Foobar and Audacity show no problems with the previous file, but I re-uploaded a new version anyway. Does it work now? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:08, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Yep. Thanks. Teucer

Please, whoever is fiddling with this entry, get real and refrain from saying that the then-wholly and totally German city of Stettin was "liberated" by the Red Army. The Germans DREADED the approach of the Red Army, with good reason -- both in terms of what the German Army and SS, etc., had done in the Soviet Union, and the revenge the Red Army already was exacting for those atrocities in eastern Germany.

Stettin, Germany (today: Szczecin, Poland) was no more "liberated" by the Red Army than Warsaw was "liberated" by the German Army. Both were conquered, with dire results for their inhabitants. Such were the savage and retributive dynamics of WWII in the east.

You can say Warsaw was "liberated" by the Red Army, though some might challenge that; but no German city, particularly those east of the postwar Oder-Neisse border, was "liberated." Need we mention that ALL of old Stettin's inhabitants were either killed or expelled? Is that "liberating"? Give me a break!

Sca 01:07, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User Sca's changes

Please do not start a revert war about Szczecin. The language you are using is quite POV and really against the very neutral tone of the whole article. "Repatriated" is a much better word to describe what has happened after the war to the German people living in Stettin and sure "conquered" to describe Red Army’s liberation of the city is too strong a word. I will not revert the article to its former version yet, if you don’t agree with my wording please suggest what you would consider to be appropriate but please note I do not agree with the current version.

Conquered is the neutral word here, before it was German, afterwards it was Russian, the process used force. And: conquer: to gain or acquire by force of arms. Liberate, on the other hand, implies that the city was grateful for the russian advance, which is simply not true. -- Chris 73 Talk 04:23, Feb 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure that the Russian forces were grateful that they have taken the city. Anyway "conquer: take possession of without permission or take with force, as after a conquest or invasion" - it was neither a conquest nor an invasion. What about the following "[...]until 1945, when it has fallen to the Red Army and became a part of Poland". BTW - I don't think there is a need to say it has fallen/been captured/conquered at all, a better way to say would be "until 1945 when the Nazi Germany was defeated and it became a part of Poland".--Roo72 04:35, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gdansk/Vote and this page

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that according to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/Notice we should have the Szczecin (Stettin) in the header, don't we? Przepla 21:06, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Correct. I added the (Stettin) to the first occurrence of the name. -- Chris 73 Talk 23:06, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like someone changed it again, because it's not that way right now. Szczecin (German: Stettin) seems ideal to me. Olessi 05:30, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Current border

Stettin under the Potsdam conference was supposed to remain in Germany. It is west of the Oder river. So legally is this city still part of Germany under Polish administration ? I am curious to the exact details about this if anyone can enlighten me? Thank you. Sean.

Although the Potsdam conference set general guidelines as to the border, it was left for future border delimitation and a peace treaty. Since no peace treaty was ever signed between Poland and Germany (technically, if it wasn't for the 1945 unconditional surrender, Poland and Germany would still be at war, much like Japan and Russia), the border was based on joint Polish-Soviet-Interallied commission line drawn in 1945. It was later accepted by GDR and by FRG in 1970. Finally, in 1990 the acceptance of the border was one of the prerequisites for the unification of Germany (as stated by the 4+2 conference) and was confirmed during the OSCE summit in Paris that year. Halibu tt 19:09, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expelling the German population in 1944-1945 a "repatriation" to Germany ?

"Expulsion" or "repatriation" is a euphemism for ethnic cleansing of territory that had been German for several hundreds of years. Many now would not want to change today's borders but one has to deal honestly with historical facts. An estimated 3 Million+ German Cilvilians (!) have lost their lives during the years 1944 and following. Most of them were women and children.

[edit] In the aftermath of World War II the city became ONCE AGAIN part of Poland...

Stettin was not part of Poland before 1945. The fact that Polish dukes were involved in the war actions in the 12th/13th century concerning the town does not make it a part of Poland. At the same time, Danish dukes were involved, and the city even came under Danish influence for some decades. This also did not make the town a part of Denmark. Concerning the population, this was probably mixed in the beginning years (Wends and Germans). The fact that Wends were Slavs does not make them Polish, however. I am quite sure that my changes will soon be reverted, and I will not participate in an edit war. I just wanted to have this comment documented on the discussion page, for the sake of the historic truth. By the way, this has nothing to do with the fact that Stettin is today called Szczecin and as such is part of Poland. This, however, should not lead to a falsification of its history.

The English language word used for this disputed city is the same as in German which is 'Stettin'.

[edit] Inclusion of Stettin in Poland

I have doubts about this part of the current article:

... it was undecided if the city would be in Poland, or in the Soviet occupation zone in Germany. In the aftermath of World War II the city became, unexpectedly and contrary to the Potsdam Conference, part of Poland due to the Polish army simply taking it.

In researching a paper on the expulsion of the Germans, I found that:

1. Inclusion of Stettin in the future Poland was demanded by Stefan Jedrichowski, propaganda minister of the Soviet-sponsored Polish National Committee, in an article in Pravda on Dec. 18, 1944.

2. At Yalta, on Feb. 6, 1945, Stalin put forward the border demands published in Pravda two months earlier. The next day, Molotov did the same, specifying inclusion of Stettin in Poland.

3. Article IX of the Potsdam Accords, issued on Aug. 2, 1945, says:

"The three heads of Government agree that, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier, the former German territories east of a line running from the Baltic Sea immediately west of Swinemünde, and thence along the Oder River to the confluence of the western Neisse River and along the western Neisse to the Czechoslovak frontier ... shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany."

This last point documents the de facto determination of Poland's western border. Note that the language of Article IX referring to west of Swinemünde (now Świnoujście) corresponds to the present border west of ex-Stettin (now Szczecin), indicating that however reluctant the Western Allies may have been to accept this part of the border de jure at the time, they had as a practical matter acquiesced in the Soviet/Polish demand for Stettin, and should not have been surprised that the city was taken over by the Poles shortly thereafter.

Sca 03:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Johann Friedrich

The Johann Friedrich is not the good one. The one that the link of the article refers to is from the 19th century when he should be active during the 16th c. I don't know what is to be done in that case. Moreover I hardly found any valuable data one this man. If anyone can work on that, an article about him would solve the problem.

The article about the Dukes of Pomerania refers to Jan Fryderyk that is yet to be written.

Informations can be found in German on http://www.ruegenwalde.com/greifen/jofri/jofri.htm

Moreover, informations (in German) on all the Szczecin Dukes can be found on this adress http://www.ruegenwalde.com/greifen/ (index of the names). Arnaud Bourgeois 22:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dukes of Szczecin

Very interesting...

Till I read this I didn't know that among Dukes of Szczecin were Casimir III of Poland (April 30, 1310 – November 5, 1370), Johann Friedrich (May 5, 1836–1917), Philip II of Macedon (382–336 BC) and Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor(8 December 1708 – 18 August 1765). And they managed to do it in this sequance :-)

Other dukes, especially Barnims, are also omitted, mixed up and/or out of order

Geopiet 16:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Szczecin near Bialoblott?

Hello,
This is a bit off topic, but I am wondering if anyone has ever heard of the town of Bialoblott? I have an ancestor who's immigration papers to the US from 1913 say that he was born in Bialoblott, Germany in 1894. I am wondering if this is close to Szczecin because he lists his last place of residence as Stettein, Germany (sic). I've looked everywhere I can thing of, but I can't find any info about Bialoblott so I'm wondering if this is just another town who's name changed after the war?
Thanks for any help,
Tommycw1 12:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Bialoblott is actually a Germanased version of a Polish name Białe Błota (White Muds), a city near Bydgoszcz (Bromberg). It's nowhere near Szczecin. Space Cadet 12:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Space Cadet, I started an English wikipedia article on Białe Błota_(Bydgoszcz). It is mostly from what I could translate form the German language article since I speak a little German, but I'm sure that there is much more in the Polish language article, unfortunately I don't speak polish. I invite you (AND EVERYONE OF COURSE) to contribute to this.

I do have a question for you. You said that Bialoblott is a Germanized version of Białe Błota. In the German language version it says that the German name is Weißfelde or White Fields. Do you know why there would be a Germanized version as well as a different word for the town? I also find it interesting that the German and Polish mean almost the same thing. Is it by any chance that Błota could also mean Fields?

Tommycw1 22:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Błota cannot mean fields. At least not in Polish. Let me do a more thorough research on Weißfelde and then get back to you. Space Cadet 13:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Got it! My mistake. Bialoblott is a Germanised version of Białobłoty near Grudziądz (Graudenz), before the WW I in West Prussia. Still nowhere near Stettin (Szczecin). Let me continue, though. Space Cadet 13:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm back. Weißfelde is Białe Błota and Bialoblott is Białobłoty. Space Cadet 13:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Me again. I checked the Polish WIKI. There is 6 villages in Poland called Białe Błota and 3 called Białobłoty. All 9 were in Germany before WW I. None near Szczecin. I guess we'll never find your ancestor's birth place. Space Cadet 14:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] formerly Stettin

Ok, guys. Why is it a problem to have the formerly Stettin in the Infobox? After all there is a specific field for 'other names'?! And if its ok for Gdansk, why not here? Splette :) ^{How's my driving?} 19:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not OK for GDAŃSK either. Space Cadet (talk) 19:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion, do you mind to give any reason as well? Thanks... Splette :) ^{How's my driving?} 19:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think former names is what the "other names" field is for. Also, this is redundant, as the historical name is already prominently mentioned and explained in the article. If the infobox was meant for historical names it would have a "historical names" field for that. Finally, it smacks on revanchism. How about having "formerly Wilno" in Vilnius infobox ? Do you think Lithuanians would appreciate that ? --Lysy^talk 19:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Besides, "formerly something" is misleading, it suggests that the Polish name was invented in 1945 (as is the case with Königsberg/Kaliningrad), which is not true. You are oh so surprised that I don't give any reason, while you don't provide any at all. Space Cadet (talk) 19:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I love your attitude, Space Cadet. It is not only a former name, but a name by which the city is still known to many today (and I am not talking about just Germans here). And this is why the name should be in the box. That is exactly what the 'other names' field is for. This is exactly why there are two fields at all, official name (Szczecin) and other name. Look, in the end this is all about how to make the article most accessable to the reader. If still many people know the city by the name Stettin, then it should be in the box.

As for Vilnius, I think you can't compare the two. I might be wrong, but I believe the name 'Wilna' was only used in German and even there it isn't used much anymore. I have always known it by 'Vilnius' only and found out about its old German name much later. Beautiful city, by the way! Splette :) ^{How's my driving?} 19:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

WILNO was a Polish name Germanized to Wilna. As for your other arguments this is not a "collection of popular stereotypes" but an encyclopedia. The infobox does not contain a designated place for a "former name". Maybe you should create one and while you're at it create an "original name" spot for Dresden, Leipzig, Neustrelitz, Meissen, Cottbus, Lausitz, Berlin etc, etc. What don't you like about my attitude? Please answer. Be consistent and specific. Space Cadet (talk) 19:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Splette. What you are saying is that Stettin is not the historical name, but the modern alternative name of the town. How do you know that it is the name "by which the city is still known to many today (and I am not talking about just Germans here)" ? As for Wilno, it's actually the historical/Polish name of the town, similarly to Stettin being the historical/German name for modern Szczecin. --Lysy^talk 19:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Space Cadet, this is not about steriotypes. The city is still known to many by the name Stettin if you like it or not. Even if the name has changed already quite a while ago. Think of Myanmar, although this is the official name of the country, it is still known to many as Burma and in fact that is also the name that was chosen for its Wikipedia article. What I am saying is that we should not ignore the common name Stettin.

Lysy, what I am saying is that the name 'Stettin' is both, the historical name and the name a number of English speakers know the city by (even though its not the correct name of the city, yes I know that but thats not the point here). Here is a source, its in the lead. :) Come on, are you seriously questioning that the name Stettin is still widely used? A google search for english pages gives 1,140,000 English pages for Szczecin and 1,180,000 English pages for Stettin. I still don't see why it harms the article to have the name Stettin in the box as well. Splette :) ^{How's my driving?} 20:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The name "Stettin" is mostly used in English in historical context. Or by tourist industry in the context of German tourism. The English name in the modern context is "Szczecin". Stettin is not the alternate modern name in English. --Lysy^talk 20:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

True, officially it is not. Inofficially it is a common name besides the official one. Yes, I am aware that the google search is a bit biased because of historic context hits. All I wanted to show is that we cannot ignore the other name. Here is another example: [21] Even LonelyPlanet gives the name Stettin in brackets when talking about nowadays Szczecin. Splette :) ^{How's my driving?} 20:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Splette, Stettin in modern context in English is incorrect usage. Therefore we should not be endorsing it. The LonelyPlanet uses the name in the context of German tourism, which I already mentioned before. --Lysy^talk 20:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I see no evidence that the Germanised form of the Slavic name is common today as name of this Polish city, it is only used in the historical context of Germanisation of that area. Also please read on Original Research policy.--Molobo (talk) 21:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] March 2008

The English language name for this now Polish city is Stettin. It appears 'some' Poles do not want to accept this fact and try to insist we English speakers use the Slavic Polish name. How many times must we tell them it is NOT phonetic to the English speaking tongue to pronounce 'Szczecin'.

This has got nothing to do with Politics and Nationalism so will you please accept the fact English is part of a Germanic origin language group and No you cannot change our language history. Go ahead and keep editing the word Stettin. Just keep doing it as much as you like but the city will always be Stettin in English and even if those idiots in Berlin tell us to stop using it we will laugh at the Germans as well. *English is NOT a Slavic Language*. Do English speakers attack the Slavic Polish language? No we do not so what is happening here with the English Wikipedia editors playing politics? Some Poles are really quite rude attacking our language by insisting we use Slavic words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.139.240 (talk) 14:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

THE *ENGLISH* NAME FOR THIS *EUROPEAN CITY* IS =(( S-T-E-T-T-I-N ))= Now... Thats the English Language so please stop this absolute Slavic Joke of us wanting to even try and say this in your nice but so hard to pronounce Slavic language. This is getting so bloody Stupid you would think the Communists are still in W-A-R-S-A-W...... Yes!!!!!!!! Thats WARSAW the ENGLISH for your Capital City...... WONDERFUL.... Would you rather insist that we call it by its Slavic name or is that not suddenly a problem ??????? Oh Dear!!!!!! Is this a Racist Issue ??????

We are all going to be part of a Federal Europe so you are really wasting your time with this insistance that English speakers learn to speak Slavic placenames.. GROW UP - Seriously..

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Filsdegilbert (talk • contribs) 22:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English Stettin vs Polish Szczecin

This page should be officially now listed by Wikipedia as in dispute. It is quite evident mostly Polish people are trying to enforce the Polish Slavic name of Szczecin as a distorted perverse form of English. (This must be suspected as being for political reasons). The absolute majority of native English speakers understand in every instance that the Slavic language version of the city name is not phonetic to us and so extremely difficult to pronounce in English. Why? Because the Slavic name is NOT English full stop.

Therefore I and my many English and American friends consider this page about Stettin to be in official dispute based on what is becoming aggressive Polish political and nationalist activity.

Sincerely

Filsdegilbert (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)John

Have a look at your own talk page - exhaustive evidence has been presented there that you are wrong on this matter, and you don't seem to have responded to it yet. (Incidentally, I'm English too.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

(Moving my comment so it will hopefully be seen by User:Filsdegilbert)

Please see my comments here, here and here. All that matters is how often the names are used in English, not how hard they are to pronounce. What's the special English name of Badacsonytomaj? How do you pronounce Amhuinnsuidhe, and what is the official language of the country it is in? Or Nhulunbuy? Or Zzyzx? English doesn't always follow the German example - what do we call Wilno? Exactly what the Lithuanians do, despite it coming from a Baltic language. Yes, we do use Warsaw - but it's an isolated case. The old exonyms for famous cities are a nice tradition which I imagine will persist in the most popular cases (Prague, Vienna, Florence...) but many of the others are losing ground. Going off the press searches I've done, Stettin may well go the same way as Ratisbon, Dort and Mentz. Knepflerle (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The English language name for this city remains 'Stettin'. You can continue to come up with all the excuses dear Sir that you wish to try and reason why a 'Slavic Language' name should be used as a perverse form of actual English. It simply is not proper English usage to do so as 'Slavic names' belong to a totally different language group. You know this but for some strange reason you are insisting in playing a very political card. I am just stating a language fact. You Sir are being insultingly political. You know it and I know it. This page will remain in dispute and I must stress with all sincerity this is nothing against the Polish people or their cultural language. As far as English as a language is concerned we English have the basic right to defend our language against such blatant political motivations regarding place names. The English language name for this city is Stettin. It has been this for hundreds of years. It will remain so for the English speaking people.

May I ask why are you insisting Sir such a continued provocation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filsdegilbert (talk • contribs) 22:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I linked above to a series of answers I made to your posts (here, here and here). In them, a lot of evidence is provided that most English-language sources now use Szczecin, despite its Slavic origin. Please look at them, and explain why we should not use what the majority of English-language sources use. The English language has no academy; English is defined to be what English-speakers use, and the evidence says most English speakers use Szczecin. If you claim otherwise, prove it. Knepflerle (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

MOST ENGLISH SPEAKERS USE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE MATE.. ; ) wots about you ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.139.240 (talk) 20:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Look at the posts and links. Evidence that English speakers writing in English use Szczecin as well as Stettin. Evidence that they use Szczecin far more often nowadays than Stettin. The evidence contradicts what you believe - so which is incorrect, your view or the evidence? Knepflerle (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

- Why are you such a Political pawn trying to impose a Slavic Polish place name on the historical English language? This to me is purely political which you still try to deny. If you choose to not deny it then say so openly Sir. The historical English language name for this city is Stettin. I am totally amazed and in disbelief that you are fighting this still knowing you are pushing it as an obvious Political agenda. Under the EU legislation regarding European place names you should be ashamed of yourself. You are trying to insist that English speakers are not supposed to use the Historical English language place name for this European city.

Do not think I am going to give up on this dear Sir. You are insulting my language with an outrageous insistence based upon your political grounds that we change our language to appease your sovereignty over this city. You know this is the reason for your arrogance and as a French friend just emailed me. If the English name for Stettin was perhaps 'Stettend' we would not have this conflict with Polish nationalists such as yourself. Once again the problem is OUR name just happens to be the same as the German name. Insane when we consider you still readily accept the German name officially.

Why do you insist on insulting the English speakers right to their historical own language usage ???

I really do not understnad you Sir..

Why are you so arrogant to us?

First and foremost - editing my comments to say something I did not say as you did here [22] is highly misleading - please do not do this again.

You keep asserting without evidence that Stettin is the English name, and ignoring the evidence that I posted to your talkpage HERE of English-language texts that use Szczecin. For your benefit, I will copy the relevant information here:

Three major encyclopaedia's articles on the city; all begin Szczecin (German: Stettin).

Where do Ryanair fly to? [26]
Where was the European Cup's combined events competition last year?[27]
Who's Marian Jurczyk? [28]
Where are these shipyards? [29]
Where's the end of this border? [30]
Where does the twice-weekly train to Warsaw go? [31]
Where are the Baltic Sea Corps based [32]

So far we've got the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encarta, Columbia Encyclopedia, Europe's larget budget airline, The Guardian, The Times, The Independent, The New York Times, The Australian and the BBC all using a term you claim English-speaking people don't use.

English usage changes over time, and the use of Stettin in modern English writing is fast dying out in favour of Szczecin. This is the fact that we should convey in the article - the version you propose is contrary to most other contemporary encyclopaedias and texts English people read. To say that the current English name for this city is Stettin and only Stettin in is provably false on both counts. Historical use of Stettin in English is equally undeniable, but we reflect the change in usage.

Remember, the English language has no academy to determine its usage - English language is what English speakers use and nothing else. In this case what they now use is Szczecin. The EU has no jurisdiction over the English language either - look for legislation if you wish, but you will waste your time. The only expression of any preference on this matter is in the EC style guide here; for Poland, preferential names are only given for NUTS1 and NUTS2 level regions, on pages 111 and 112.

Before slinging around accusations of "Polish nationalist", "arrogant" and so on, please read WP:NPA - your editing privileges may be restricted if this continues. It might well be worth your reading WP:UE and WP:NC(GN) too, to give you a background on how Wikipedia decides matters such as this. I don't understand what you said about your French friend emailing you, but believe me the fact this is also the German name makes little difference to me. Knepflerle (talk) 10:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ambiguous paragraph about resettlement

After WWII, Germans were forced to leave, and replaced with Poles. But from where? Our paragraph says from Poznan, but also says with Poles from the Ukraine. Am I mis-reading? This needs, at a minimum, clearer writing:

In 1945 the Polish community in Stettin consisted of a few of citizens from the pre-war population as well as forced laborers from the General government. Stettin was resettled with Poles, most of whom came from around Poznań, where their homes had been destroyed during the German occupation and during fighting on the Eastern Front. The city's population was expelled and then resettled with Poles from Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union. This settlement process was coordinated by the city of Poznan, and Stettin's name was changed to a Polish name of Szczecin. There is significant Ukrainian minority, which was forced by communist government, after Operation Vistula in 1947 to leave East of Poland.

Were Poles from the Ukraine moved to Poznan or Stettin? Jd2718 (talk) 02:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)