Talk:Syrah

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Contents 1 Shiraz vs Syrah 2 Australia vs Australian 3 Myth: Shiraz in Iran 4 Edits by anonymous user 5 Noble grape varieties 6 Article Naming (again) 7 New Synonym listing 8 Article name 8.1 Update 9 Generalizing Shiraz 10 Thoughts on assessment 11 Shiraz 12 Should we start the page move process to Syrah? 13 Requested move

[edit] Shiraz vs Syrah

Syrah is a grape. Shiraz is a style of wine made with the Syrah grape. Since Syrah is from the rhone valley, and it was transplanted elsewhere where Shiraz was made, then shouldn't we stick to the original name of the grape?

It would be the same as calling Sauvignon Blanc "Fume Blanc Grape". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.105.234 (talk) 00:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(This article should be titled Syrah grape) (This article CLEARLY should be titled "Syrah Grape", I agree) - damn straight

Note to anonymous user who reverted a change on Shiraz/Syrah - it is quite common for Australian and Californian Shiraz wines to be labelled Syrah. If you don't believe me, do a Google search on Australia and Syrah and see what comes up. seglea 07:30, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'd say that well under 10% of Australian Shiraz is labled Syrah based on the (large) selection in the local supermarkets and wine shops here in New Zealand. For example the New Zealand magazine Cuisine (Jul 2003 issue 93) has an article on Aussie Shiraz (pg 157 to 163) which reviews 106 Australian Shiraz's, only 1 (Rosemount Estate 1998 Balmoral Syrah) was called Syrah. So while not unheard of I wouldn't personally call it common. Htaccess 09:39, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It may be a matter of where in the world you live. In the New York/New Jersey area of the U.S., Shiraz imported from Australia is very rarely called Syrah. As for what California wines from this grape are called, that is another matter entirely. My impression is that most are labeled Syrah, but I don't know that anyone said that they weren't. As for a search on Australia and Syrah on Google, I'm not sure what that proves. If you look at the pages that come up, often the words "Australia" and "Syrah" are found on the same page, but not necessarily applying to the same wines. Very commonly, the same on-line store is advertising Australian Shiraz and California Syrah. -- Alan W 04:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have now done an extensive rewrite that attempts to incorporate as many viewpoints as possible. Nevertheless, I do not feel it is anything but misleading to leave the reader with an impression other than that, in the words of "Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes," "In Australia, it's almost always Shiraz." -- Alan W 04:49, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

One datum: Of all the Australian Shiraz/Syrah wines reviewed by the Wine Spectator (the biggest circulation U.S. wine magzine), 37 were labeled Syrah, and 1856 were Shiraz, a mere 2%. Not sure it is helpful to note the existance of Aussie Syrah in all but the most cursory of ways. Wnissen 03:44, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, more data.

• Google search on "Australian Syrah" gives 64 hits; "Australian Shiraz" gives more than 5000. Within the likely error of the methods, that agrees with Wnissen's data above.
• Google search on "Californian Syrah" or "Californian Shiraz" gives almost none in either case
• Google search on "California Syrah" gives 1790; "California Shiraz" gives 356

My conclusions:

1. It is clearly wrong to say (as one of our pages did at one point) that Syrah is the French name and everyone else calls it Shiraz.
2. It is clearly right to say that it is rare to see Australian wine labelled as Syrah, and I apologise for questioning it. I think the reason is that I am living in California, and because of the next point, we are more likely to see such Australian Syrahs as there are coming here - I normally live in the UK, and I never recall seeing an Australian Syrah label there, ever.
3. Both names are used for California wines, but Syrah is more common; that accords with my impression from shopping here.

seglea 06:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, then, I think we are mostly in agreement now. I was the "anonymous" user (not that I was really anonymous; I think you just mistook me for someone else) who changed your 'It is common for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah"' to 'It is uncommon for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah".' Like yourself, I have a scholarly background, and I would never make such a blunt, radical change in someone else's writing unless I felt I had a very good reason for it.

And, yes, I believe, as I did then, that it _is_ "clearly wrong to say ... that Syrah is the French name." That is why in my edit of 1 Feb 00:32 UTC I changed "It is known as Syrah in French" to "It is generally known as Syrah in France." Odd, about your Google search. I did the exact same search on "California Shiraz" and "California Syrah" and got "about 526" hits for the former and "about 2,660" hits for the latter. I think one may still draw similar conclusions, and I agree with you, but it is strange how the same search within a few hours can give such different results. -- Alan W 04:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Alan, I think I see some of the source of confusion. Syrah is a French word, period. Thus it is correct to say that Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France. What about that statement seems incorrect? Wnissen 04:40, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wnissen, nothing's wrong with "Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France" -except that the way we were saying it at one stage (I have lost track of when and where) said or implied that it was called Shiraz everywhere else, which isn't true. Alan, that is weird about the Google searches - clearly these numbers should only be trusted to +/- an order of magnitude. However the conclusions do hold up. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I suppose I should be spending my time writing (or trying to write) great Wikipedia articles (or at least making useful edits, or whatever) instead of belaboring this topic to death, but I can't resist a couple of additional comments. :^) Wnissen, I take your word for it that "Syrah is a French word, period." But accepting that still does not dispel all confusion about wines from this grape (or related but not identical grapes, depending on your viewpoint). Oz Clarke's "Encyclopedia of Wine Grapes" says of wines from this grape in France: "In the Languedoc it may sometimes change its name to Shiraz, reflecting brand loyalty to the Australian style of sweeter, more chocolaty fruit." -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have to put an addendum on Clarke's language. The wine may be sold as Shiraz in countries that recognize that word legally, but I'm pretty sure we all call it Syrah last I checked. see my comments below mroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Surely the correct name of the grape is Syrah, which is known as Shiraz in certain places. The article implies that the reverse of this is true. There is actually no grape whose actual name is Shiraz. Quentin sadler

I don't think it is as simple as that. This is a known problem. Jancis Robinson, in her "Guide to Wine Grapes," gets around it by having two separate entries, one for Syrah and one for Shiraz, even though she believes they are the same grape. Oz Clarke, in his "Encyclopedia of Grapes," deals with this issue by calling the section on this grape "Syrah/Shiraz." The on-line "Winegrape Glossary" [1] also has separate coverage. In addition, it mentions that in Argentina before the late sixties it was called Balsamina! Somehow, maybe for historical reasons, Syrah does seem to me to be the principal name. But I don't think it is correct, either, to say that Shiraz is not its "actual" name. One grape may be known by different names in different places and at different times, and all names might in some sense be legitimate. -- Alan W 00:17, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The listing should clearly be under either both shiraz and syrah or just under syrah. Syrah is the primary name for this grape in English used by Jancis Robinson, Robert Parker, Steve Tanzer, and Clive Coates. The way the article is currently referenced makes it appear that "Shiraz" is the rule and "syrah" the exception. This is clearly wrong. Veniceslug1

As I sit here sipping a Washington syrah, I thought I should reiterate the consensus that seems to be forming above: the primary name of this entry should be "Syrah." This is the name of the grape in France, where it originated, and it is also the most common name attached to the grape in the United States. On the other hand, few wineries outside of Australia use the term "Shiraz." wschrive 1 Mar 2005

moved to more timely discussion tee heemroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I hate to complicate things, but Bogle spells it "Sirah," so can we fire back up the ol' debate? MotherFunctor 00:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The Bogle Sirah is actually a different grape - Petite Sirah. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 07:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It should be Syrah. It originates from France where it is called Syrah, and it is also called Syrah in the United States, where many english speakers live who would come to this page. Heck, when I went to look up this type of grape/wine, I typed in a search for Syrah, knowing full well that in some places it is called Shiraz, and I imagine most other people coming here did the same. So, since it was originally Syrah and called Syrah by many of the people who would read this article, this article really should be called Syrah. If other parts of the world want to call Syrah something else, they can get a redirect. Mrxak 08:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Another question on this point - the article states "The name Shiraz for this grape variety is also commonly used in South Africa, Canada, and New Zealand." I live in New Zealand, and while this is partly true, it's also misleading. In my experience, 'Shiraz' is almost never used for wine produced in NZ - it's called 'Syrah'. However, a lot of our red wine is imported from Australia, so it's common to see the name 'shiraz', even though it's not a name that we use a lot. Does that make sense? If so, what would be a good way to change that sentence? Should we just take NZ out of the list? TheAstonishingBadger (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that the statements in the article is meant to refer to wine produced in the country in question - not what you see on the labels of imported bottles. I'm not surprised that Syrah is used, since New Zealand in general is known for cold climate-style wines and wines that are "somewhat Europan-styled", in difference to Oz. You're welcome to change it, but it would be good if you used a reliable source. In fact, that whole section could use some updating and more reliable sources. Tomas e (talk) 15:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I've had a look round, and couldn't find a source explicitly discussing this, so I'll leave it for now, but keep an eye open for sources. TheAstonishingBadger (talk) 21:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Australia vs Australian

Meanwhile, can anyone throw any light why it is "Australian" Shiraz (or Merlot or whatever), but almost always "California ..."? Or is this just a quirk of tradition? Come to think of it, from memory I think we have "Oregon", "New Zealand", "New York State" going like "California", but everywhere in Europe, and "South African", going like "Australian". Well, I guess it doesn't matter, but it's odd. It may just be that (thank goodness) we don't have words like "New Zealandian", but we do have "Californian". Hmmm. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And, seglea, we may hear people refer to "Australian" Shiraz and "California" Syrah, but, odd as that usage may seem, it has nothing to do with what appears on the wine labels (I'm not sure if you are implying any connection or not). Looking at some labels pictured in books I have (I don't happen to have any bottles of Syrah/Shiraz handy), I see "McDowell Syrah Mendocino" (from Mendocino County, California), "Penfolds Grange South Australia Shiraz," and so on. No "Californian," but no "Australian" either. -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Myth: Shiraz in Iran

I don't know why the old myth keeps resurfacing that links the name of the grape Shiraz with the city of Shiraz in Iran. Several sources I have cited earlier, above, demonstrate the likelihood that the grape Shiraz/Syrah originated in France. See Oz Clarke, "Encyclopedia of Grapes," Jancis Robinson, "Guide to Wine Grapes," and the "Winegrape Glossary" [2]. Shiraz, in what was then Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz. Recent DNA studies suggest strongly, if not definitively, that Syrah/Shiraz originated in Eastern France, where it shows the greatest genetic diversity to this day. -- Alan W 05:45, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There is an alternative theory - that the Syrah/Shiraz grape originated in Syracuse, Sicily. The many different versions of the name in use in Australia would suggest that "Shiraz" was a development of earlier names, rather than a reference to the Iranian city of that name. This theory has been boosted by the apparent similarity between the Syrah grape, and the native Sicilian Nero d'Avola, which many local producer feel are related, if not identical. --MB63 11:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wine originates from Iran, and Shiraz is indeed from the city of Shiraz

http://dooroodiran.blogspot.com/2004/01/wine-was-originated-in-iran.html

This is not a myth. Wine producing was outlawed in Iran due to Islamic law, this is why you don't see them protesting Australias ridiculous claim that shiraz is indiginous to australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Persianguyagain (talk • contribs) 08:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Edits by anonymous user

Edits made to provide more clarity on the use of Shiraz/Syrah and explain the professional motivation for the choice between the two. Also, more information provided on the taste characteristics of Shiraz and specific practical examples given for the student of wine. 5 Jan 2005

I've removed the redundant notes on this talk page. The last, anonymous, user accidentally duplicated the page while editing. I will add that I do not know why that user is hiding behind anonymity. His or her edits of the Shiraz grape article are excellent. Although not all contributors will agree with some of the changes, I think a great improvement has been made in the writing, the accuracy, the completeness, and the clarity of thought. And I include changes to my own writing when I say this. Whoever you are, thank you! -- Alan W 00:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments and also for the correction of my error. This is my first experience contributing to Wikipedia so I very much appreciate your help. I am a wine professional and would prefer not to have my comments linked to my company, hence the lone-ranger-esque mask. Anonymity gives me more editorial freedom, if you will. Thanks for understanding. Hi-oh Silver, away! 5 Jan 2005

Although saying that no wine is made in Iran, around the Shiraz area. Iran with its hot dry summers and cool valleys is perfect wine country, although for the problem of the Islamic Regime is classed as an illegal activity, although many sources say they are still producing some form of Shiraz (local name) wine in Iran.

[edit] Noble grape varieties

Why is it mentione as a noble grape? I would take away but I feel like i'm missing something ... If the text means something else I think it should be rewritten? Stefan 14:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

News Flash: The latest poll of the Wine Spectator (12 months ending 18 Septmember 2005) shows 365 reviews of Syrah wines and 216 reviews of Shiraz wines. Also, regarding "noble" grape varieties, some varieties (e.g. chardonnay, reisling, cabernet sauvignon, syrah/shraz, et al.) are considered "noble" in that they are capable of producing wines of exceptional character and ageability, while some others, (e.g. chenin blanc, thompson) produce often charming but ultimately insubstantial wines. See, for one reference, http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/noble.html I am not aware of any definitive list of noble grapes, since one can point to exceptional wines made from any of a vast number of varieties (e.g. tempranillo, sangiovese, nebbiolo, merlot, viognier, semillon, ad infinitum). --144.132.193.97 13:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

For definition of Noble grape I would suggest looking at noble_grapes in wikipedia, first change there then change here. I think Noble graps is a too old definition to bother about, but wikipedia should at least be consistent IMHO, but if you want to change back to make shiraz noble, be bold :-), I took it away to make wikipedia consistant (and I think more correct). Stefan 05:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Naming (again)

Just looking through the grapes listed on the Wine Project, this is the only one that's in the format XXXXX grape. I understand that it's due to the other things named Shiraz, but I'm not a big fan of the way that the article is currently named. To me, at least, it looks like that title suggests that it's referred to as the "Shiraz grape." One of my goals is to try and make this article a good article, and I do think that having a simpler name would help.

Would it be possible to rename the article to be more inline with the other wine grapes? Ideally I'd like to see it as Shiraz/Syrah (or the opposite), but since it looks like that violates WP:NAME I don't think that will work. The other options I see is either go with Syrah, since that's a name that doesn't have any naming conflicts, or Shiraz (grape), which is more in line with how other topics disambiguate.

I'm personally not sure which one is better. The books that I have that are written by an author from the U.S. or the U.K., Syrah seems to be the primary name. The Australian authors favor Shiraz. Syrah has the advantage of not needing any additional disambiguation, so at this point I'd lean towards that.

I'm not formally proposing a move, I'd just like to know what the (current) editors feel.

(And just for bias reasons, I am an American, but I do call the wine that I make a Shiraz) --- The Bethling^(Talk) 05:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This entry should be listed under Syrah with a cross reference from Shiraz. Every wine book I've read (Robinson, Oz Clark, et al.) uses the name Sryah and states that Shiraz is the Australian name for the grape. Babaluma 07:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Synonym listing

I noticed that a list of synonyms were just added to the introduction. Is this really necessary (at least in the intro)? Most of these are not particularly common, especially in English Usage. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 03:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the intro is probably not the best spot for them. :/ Admittedly, I kinda haphazardly dropped them in there while I was in a editting disagreement with another user on my talk page over a redirect on the Sirac disambig. I agree that all them are not immensely common but I do think there is some value in having mention of synonyms somewhere in the article. But there is probably a better spot then the lead. Agne 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay :) I'll think about maybe finding a better place for the information. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 03:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I'd like to put in a move request for the article name because the current name is out of sync with other wine grape related articles. Between Syrah and Shiraz I will note that the Shiraz grape article was created in Feb 2002 and Syrah was created as a redirect to Shiraz grape in Sept 2002. Between those two, I have no preference but if consensus emerges for Syrah to be the article name then I would support it. The other option would be to have normal disambiguation as Shiraz (grape). A dark house candidate is the Syrah/Shiraz which doesn't seem to sync well with naming conventions either. So lets opinion up a discussion on the different names. In fairness I will invite both the French & Australian Wikiprojects to the discussion since this is obviously a regional spelling issue. But hopefully this is one we can come with an amicable consensus on. Agne 22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Potential article title

• Syrah - currently a redirect. Requires no additional disambiguation.
  • Support - Though not too strongly. I do like the fact that this name require no additional disambiguation, and a disagree with Stevage's comment that Shiraz is clearly more common. Just looking at the wine books I own, nearly all of them refer to the grape as Syrah, and then specify Shiraz as an Australian/South African name. It's been my experience that at least here in the US, wine makers who make a wine they label as a Shiraz (myself included) refer to the grape itself as Syrah. I'd be happy with Shiraz (grape) as well - if it wasn't for eliminating the disambiguation, my support would be there just to maintain the original name of the article. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 19:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Shriraz is perhaps more common when it comes to Australian wines, but Syrah definately has more world-wide usage. A quick look in the index of Janice Robinson's Wine Atlas (5th Ed.) shows two countries/regions with references to Shiraz and 15 for Syrah. Other reference books will commonly redirect those looking for information on Shiraz to the references for Syrah. Problems with grape synonyms will be a large problem when attempting to work on grape varietal articles.Dancingredshoes 21:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - I think it's largely irrelevant what gets "favored" on wikipedia although I like calling it Syrah since that's what we call it where I live. I think use of shiraz has boomed because of the sheer volume of Australian wines in stores, and I have seen wines from my region (Languedoc Roussillon) sold as Shiraz in the US, but that's not the name on the French customs paperwork that those vineyards fill out. Shiraz is not included in French legal terminology in any texts I've seen. mroconnell 16:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Syrah is most common worldwide, and original name for the grape originally from France. Also most common usage in the USA where the most english language speakers live, by far. Mrxak 08:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Origin name, simplicity, by no means a minority choice. Time passes, but I thought I'd add a vox. MURGH ^disc. 15:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Shiraz (grape) - requires disambiguation with Iranian city Shiraz.
  • Support - I'm Australian and have lived in France, so do I get to vote twice? This seems to be the best option - Shiraz is clearly the more common name in English, so it's what we go with. And the standard disambig context in brackets. "Syrah" is my #2 choice. The other options are bad. Stevage 09:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Support as a British Australian I have to support this option! --Steve _(Slf67) ^talk 08:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
• Syrah/Shiraz
• Status quo Keep the article titled as is
  • Support leaving as is. I'm satisfied that "Shiraz" is the common name and, as Rmhermen points out below, there is a current naming convention that ought to be followed.--cj | talk 02:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comments
  • List of grape varieties finds a number of grapes titled in the X grape format. I found Bastardo grape, Carnelian grape, Bacchus grape, Greco grape, Kerner grape, Concord grape, Delaware grape, Niagara grape on a partial look through. So there is a larger issue here. Rmhermen 19:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Hmm, yeah it looks like there is a bit of inconsistency with grape naming conventions. But it looks like an easy fix. Agne 11:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

I was bold and went with the Shiraz (grape) move. Once the other grapes that Rmherman mentioned where formatted to consistency, there was no reason not to format this the same. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Generalizing Shiraz

This obviously is full of generalizations but I would have to disagree that Shiraz is usually dark berries as opposed to red. The McLaren Vale is often red raspberry, cherry and strawberry matched with white pepper notes. The Barossa, as well, can tend toward the impression of darker berries due to the earth tones, spice and heft of the wines but the mid-palate is a strong, rich core of red berries along with black berries. It is important to understand the distinction between the riper red-leaning berry flavor and the more blueberry driven tones of the rhone and californian styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.50.242 (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on assessment

It looks like this article is going through some major rewriting (looking good Tomas!), so any definitive thoughts on assessment should wait till that is done. This article looks mostly on the B side but there are a couple things that jump out-

• The Origins/Myth/Naming should probably be a separate section than a history section which could detail its spread from France to Australia, US, etc.
• The major wine regions should probably be separated from the "Shiraz taste/aromas" etc (which could also go with a Food pairing section). The coverage of Australian & American Shiraz seems fine but there could probably be more details about Rhone/Languedoc Syrah as well as Syrah in South Africa, South America and Italy.
• While there are not that many unique details about the Viticulture & Winemaking of Syrah, there would be enough to merit a combined section on the two with details on harvesting, vine diseases that it is sensitive too, typically alcohol and acid levels, etc. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shiraz

I should mentioned some nonadjustable references in this page. 1) The wine which was produced in Iran (and especially in Shiraz city) was red wine. There are a lot of historical and literature evidences that proof this fact. The Persian word for wine is "May" and the color of red wine (dark red) is called "May-goon" which means "Like-wine". In addition, all (without exceptions) literature sources use wine and blood as symbolic synonyms. Since the history of Persia (and language) is traced to 7000 years ago, one can conclude that "wine of Iran (Shiraz) was red". 2) The wine that nowadays (although there are many barriers has been made by government) is made in Iran are red and the taste is very similar to Shiraz brand. There is no evidence that shows people of Shiraz region used another version of wine. 3) Shiraz is an ancient Persian name but I could not find any meaning for the word Shiraz or Syrah in English and French. If some one can clear that why people of Rhône named their wine Shiraz (in contrary to many other village and chateaus that call their wine with local names) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinima (talk • contribs) 10:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

They [people of Rhône] 'didn't name their wine' Shiraz, but Syrah. Sources convincingly indicate that modern use of the Shiraz name happened when "Scyras" came to Australia, if you would put stock in Oxford Companion to Wine[3] If you could specify the references "concluding" the historical wine of Shiraz to be red it would be interesting. "The wine most often described and praised was white"OCW MURGH ^disc. 12:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Some of your comments would be more relevant to Shirazi wine than this article on the grape variety Syrah/Shiraz. Please read that article and its references! Since I've made most of the recent edits to these two articles concerning the things you refer to, I would like to point out the following:

• My sources, and those of other recent editors, are clearly stated. The "Oxford Companion to Wine" clearly talks about the classical Shirazi wine as being white. If you have more reliable scientific sources, please state them!
• Any claims of Syrah/Shiraz being a grape introduced to Rhône from Persia must take the DNA profiling of the Syrah grape and its parentage into account. Given the absence of any indication that Dureza and Mondeuse Blanche are also introduced from Persia, this result quite simply leaves no room for Syrah having originated anywhere else than northern Rhône or its immediate surroundings.
• More specifically, vague lingustic analogies are notoriously difficult to apply as "conclusive evidence" of grape heritage, especially when (supposedly) carried over between languages, in this case even languages with completeley different alphabets and pronounciation! There are so many similar synomyms for completely unrelated grapes even within languages such as French, German and Italian.
• I'm sure that there is/was red wine made in Iran/Persia at some point or other. But there are a total of several thousands of known dark-skinned varieties, so an automatic "red wine = Syrah/Shiraz variety" does absolutely not hold, neither in Iran, Rhône, Australia or anywhere else.
• While the history of viticulture is believed to extend back 8,000 years or more, I have never seen anyone claim that grape varieties as such (i.e., distinct cultivars propagated by means of cuttings) go back 7,000 years. It seems likely that early vines were seed plants, since that's the way the vine propagates itself in nature. Grape varieties are likely to go back 2,600 to 3,000 years, and Greek viticulture, since it is documented that the Greeks brought their vines and viticultural methods to other places they colonized. The oldest signs of professional viticulture unearthed are from Mycenae some 3,600 years ago.
• Thus, the history and roots of viticulture is not the same as the origin or history of individual grape varieties. Vitis vinifera is known to be indigenous to the Middle East - Mediterranean region and a good distance up in central Europe, such as upper Rhine. Most likely, wild vines and their seeds have been collected in many locations throughout the early history of viticulture and used as basis for the cultivation. Therefore, early signs of viticulture in Persia, Caucasus and other places is relevant to articles on the History of wine and of viticulture, but not to descriptions of origin of individual grape varieties.
• By the way, calling something "Shiraz" or "Shirazi" that happened several thousand years before the city of Shiraz was founded does not seem very relevant.
• The time period most relevant to explaining why Syrah/Shiraz bears no known relation to the place Shiraz or its Shirazi wine, is that one pointed out in legends: the crusades and Sterimberg's possible bringing home of vines. That would be around the 13th Century AD.

I hope this clarifies some things. It is absolutely clear, beyond any reasonable doubt that the grape variety Syrah has no relation to Shiraz in Persia/Iran, and has originated in northern Rhône. The fact that many wine writers and bloggers are sloppy with their fact checking and have propagated various myths, and continue to do so after the DNA profiling results are widely spread, does not change this fact, and makes it even more important that our encyclopedia sticks to the dry facts and reliable references. Tomas e (talk) 12:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should we start the page move process to Syrah?

Unrelated to the above, it seems more sources and common uses would indicate that Syrah is the proper location for the grape--not the least of which, you get the benefit of not needing the (grape) disambiguation. So, should we start the page move process? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 14:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll second that thought. MURGH ^disc. 14:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Me too, i.e. support. I had plans for adding more on the evolution of the name and spelling to further back up "Syrah" being the original and "Shiraz" the derivative use, but that hasn't happened yet. And if other editors are conviced about Syrah being a more appropriate name for the variety (in line with e.g. OCW's usage) before that material is added, I see absolutely no problem with that! Tomas e (talk) 15:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder if it is best to wait till that material is added. The WP:RM process will invite quite a few (hopefully) objective editors to the process to share their thoughts. There is a good chance that they will be less familiar with the origins and history of Syrah then they are with seeing Yellow Tail Shiraz on their local grocer's shelf. If the article can provide more details and context for them, it maybe easier for "non-wine geeks" to see that Syrah is more appropriate of a title. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 15:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that was my original thought, and some other articles added recently were meant to bring "the full story" within the digital reach of those misguided souls who don't sleep with a copy of OCW under their pillow. :-) And I was also planning to remove the Persian pronounciation, since it would be more appropriate to show Strine, or possibly Olde English (but more on that later). BTW, if some people would absolutely wish to keep some kind of Shiraz-named article, I could live with "Syrah" being the (longer) overview grape variety article, and "Shiraz (wine)" being an article on Shiraz-style and Shiraz-labelled Syrah wines, and their history and marketing. But that would perhaps be a backup option if we can't get consensus on the main name form to be used for the article. Tomas e (talk) 16:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Yikes! How did you know that I sleep with my OCW! :p Is that worse than keeping old copies of Wine Spectator & Decanter in the bathroom? :/ I'd like your idea about creating a Syrah grape article and converting this to a Shiraz wine article. While it would not be my first choice, that is not a bad compromise idea. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 17:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

My idea was to move most material to Syrah and then to move out Shiraz material to a separate article. But there might be a procedural difference involving WP:RM or not. I'm open to both routes. Tomas e (talk) 17:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a controversial name change, before we rush into it remeber what we are supposed to consider. IMHO the 'correct' name is Syrah and that is what it should be, but according to wikipedias naming standard we do not care about correct, we do not care where the grape comes from and what it is called there, we are supposed to use most commonly used name in English. Since there are very few wines called Syrah in the old world, they are called Rhône wine and so on so that does not count, so basically it is a question if there are more people that know Shiraz than Syrah. I would guess there are more people using Shiraz but I do not really know (can anyone find how much Syrah/Shiraz grapes are harvested in Australia vs. US?). BTW, if anyone wants to change the naming rules to correct instead of most used I'm all for it, but that will not happen :-(.

And to move and split is not a good idea, you are not supposed to do cut and paste moves, it loses the history which is important from licensing point of view. --Stefan ^talk 05:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I both agree with you and not. There are probably more varietally labelled wines with Shiraz on their labels than Syrah, no doubt about that. However, this is basically an article on the grape variety, in which we also discuss the wines made from the grape variety, and especially the varietal wines, as is standard practice for WP:WINE articles. So there are also other considerations than the varietally labelled wines in choosing a name. (My guess would be that many New World winemakers could agree to something like "this is Syrah grapes, and I use them to produce a wine which we label Shiraz, because consumers recognize that name and it also explains the style of the wine we use".) For me, an important point is that (the English-language) Oxford Companion to Wine (probably the most authorative source on all things vinuous) uses Syrah for their main article, but also has a short additional article on Shiraz. My alternative suggestion above was to copy that arrangement, if no consensus on a move to Syrah would seem likely.
As a technical sidenote, I believe it is fully possible to split an article into two and have both of them keep the history: you move the article to another name (in this case over a redirect) and then restore the previous version of the article under its original name. (Unless there are more elegant solutions.) Tomas e (talk) 09:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) In all honesty, if we were to do a split-I'd be incline to rewrite the article (ala Cabernet Sauvignon) so there wouldn't be any issues about page history. Outside of Tomas' recent work on origins and history (which is fabulous and a must have), the rest of the article is a bit weak and could use alot of work. There is very little discussion about winemaking and viticulture, plus what is essentially the "wine region" section is kind of presented in a hodge podge fashion. If this article were to become Shiraz, the only item that would really need to be "merged" into a more comprehensive Syrah article would be the history and origin (leaving a summary here of course) and we can leave a more detailed attribution note on the Syrah talk page. (Or I'm sure Tomas, as the original author, would be willing to "readd" his material to the new Syrah article to create essentially a similar page history.) But anyways, that is obviously not the first choice since Shiraz wine is but a sub-topic really of understanding the Syrah grape and would be best kept together. I think that important consideration has sadly been lost due to the ill advised naming of this article. Tomas is dead on in his evaluation as to the relationship between varietally labeled Shiraz and the Syrah grape. Shiraz is really just a wine style or branding and in the context of ampelographical history, grape physiology, viticulture and winemaking techniques--the discussion is almost always of the Syrah grape. In the concept of discussing the grape, it is by far the most WP:COMMONNAME. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 12:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Please understand that I'm not going to fight this, I do not really know what is correct according to the convention and I do not really care, I did not even !vote above, and I agree with most of what you say, except for the last part, i.e. even if most literature talks about Syrah, it might NOT be the most common name (but when you put it like that maybe you could argue ... not sure how to interpret the rule, i.e. most known by laymen or most used in literature??? the rationale in WP:COMMONNAME seams to imply the first, but it is not clear). Anyway all of you seams to agree, I agree that you are right, but I am not convinced that you are right according to WP:COMMONNAME, I think that most Aussie grape growers would claim that they grow Shiraz grape and not Syrah grapes. I think that we should be more of a encyclopedia that should have the right names, not the most common name, but I would humbly suggest for your own good that if you go to WP:RM you should have more statistics on useage and NOT argue that Jancis, ampelographical historians, grape physiologists and viticulturists most commonly call it Syrah, it is what is written on the bottels people buy that they know and as you state above Yellow Tail is big and sell an awful lot of bottels. I did two quick google checks (without the exclusion of wikipedia but still) and "Shiraz grape" gets more hits than "Syrah grape". --Stefan ^talk 00:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand your view but I do have to disagree with the more bottles as "Shiraz" parts. Outside of Australia and South Africa, there is not that much common occurrence except for the winemakers that produce a very fruit Aussie style which they want the consumer to associate. Even on the flipside, I have seen quite a few Aussie and SA bottles with "Syrah" for much the same reason--the winemaker is producing more of an Old World, earthy style and they want that connotation that comes with the name. Out of curiosity, I did a survey of my Syrah/Shiraz inventory. I'm very much a "mid-level" retailer (meaning I don't have huge selection but it is a little more than your typical grocery), so these results are wholly unscientific. This is only counting varietally labeled wines (so no Rhones) and blends that make prominent mention of the grape on the label (so no Super Tuscans).

• Australian-8 Shiraz, 2 Syrah
• South African-3 Shiraz, 1 Syrah
• Spain-1 Syrah
• Italy-2 Syrah
• Languedoc/vin de pays-4 Syrahs
• Chile-2 Syrah
• Argentina-1 Syrah
• California- 13 Syrahs, 3 Shiraz
• Washington state-6 Syrahs, 1 Shiraz

Again, I reiterate...this is just the sample of one single, west coast US wine shop and is completely OR :p While the above ratios are rather similar to my broader experiences as a consumer at shops across the US, I will note that I do not carry Yellow Tail. :) Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, then go for it, but try to do a page move, I think the page should be renamed and not split, I still say it is the same grape!!! Just 2 different names and it should have only one page. (personal side note, which are your 2 aussy Syrahs?? I have only seen Clarendon). --Stefan ^talk 02:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

One is Jacob's Creek Syrah South Australia Reserve (Which is kinda funny since their non-reserve is labeled "Shiraz") and the other is McWilliam's South Eastern Australia Hanwood Estate Syrah. As for the page move, I agree that it is preferable to the split and I think once Tomas finishes with the "naming" section, we'll probably go ahead and file it. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 14:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move