Talk:Syncretism

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Contents 1 Syncretism as a whole and the sheer length of the Christianity entry 2 Sycretism vs Synthesis 3 Spelling 4 "Contextualism" 5 Excisions for NPOV 6 World religions 7 Removed etymology 7.1 Discussion 8 Hinduism 9 The Bahá'í Faith 10 Kakure Kirishitan 11 in Judaism 12 in greco/roman religion/culture 13 in Christianity 14 in Islam 15 Norse syncretism 16 Gospel of Mani 17 "External Links" 18 House of Syncretism 19 Chrismukkah

[edit] Syncretism as a whole and the sheer length of the Christianity entry

This article really seems a bit unbalanced. The entry on Christianity is positively huge, and especially the bit about a 17th century schism doesn't seem all that relevant to the idea of syncretism, but more to Syncretism_in_Christianity. I'd like to know if anyone else feels this might benefit from being split off from the main article and moved into its own.Boombaard (talk) 02:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sycretism vs Synthesis

As a movement, how is Syncretism different than the Synthesis idea?

Syncretism differs in that a Synthesis is not felt to be essential to Syncretists. To give an example with clothes, a clothing Syncretist wouldn't mind wear contemporary Italian shoes under a Japanese kimono. A Synthetis would be like wearing clothes out of fine Japanese silk in a contemporay Italian design. --Beoran 15:43, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Syncretism is often mistaken for eclecticism in this way. Wetman 19:49, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think that a synthesis is what eclectisism tries to archieve, while syncreticm does not require synthesis, but simply the bacic assumption that differences are not neccesarily opposites. In Japan, Shinto/Buddhism syncretism is common, even though the beliefs of both religions are quite different. They do not "pick what they like" as eclectics do, but simply divide their time. This is possible because the adherents do not see the differences as being in opposition with each other. --Beoran 10:08, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

'Syncretism' seems to be the usual spelling, not 'Syncreticism' (by Google count) and the NODE concurs, by only listing 'Syncretism'. Changing spelling to reflect this. -- The Anome

[edit] "Contextualism"

Recent edit: "Syncretism can be contrasted with contextualization, the practice of making Christianity relevant to a culture." If it can, then it certainly should be contrasted. If it can't be, then the sentence should be deleted. As it stands, the sentence transfers little information. --Wetman 00:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think that contextualization is not to be contrasted, but rather to be compared to syncretism. I would say that contextualisation is more of an effort from people who try to prostelyze their own faith, while syncretism seems more like an organic and natural for people who get in touch with new religious ideas. --Beoran 09:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I think the whole artcle on Syncretism is quite messy and needs to be cleaned up.

[edit] Excisions for NPOV

I removed the following paragraphs. It is unclear, badly written and clearly does not abide to the rules of the NPOV, complaints follow after each paragraph:

Enlightened and emerging thought beyond the current constructs of the major world religions, left vs right, capatalism, communisim, socalism and so forth is clearly syncretist in nature.

(Why is it "enlightened"? Compared to what? Why is this position so obviously more "enlightened"?)

Syncretism is the adjective of common sense that has permeated human thought since humanity began. The term encapsulates the wisdom drawn from the observance and acceptance of everything.

(Whose "common sense"? How do you define "common sense"? What is wisdom in this case? What is meant by the "acceptance of everything"? Are we talking ontology, metaphysics etc? Clear it out.)

Syncretism has always existed and is older than any religious concept or adherance. It is the timeless stream of consciousness that travels in parrallel with human evolution and it's inherant historical and heirachical religious belief systems.

(According to which sources has this "always existed"? According to which sources is it older than any religious concept? What proofs exist? On the contrary -- our oldest books and works of art are clearly non-syncretist and the signs of one single religion. Define "hierarchical religious belief systems" what is included and what is not?)

Syncretism can not exist within any specific religious sect or order - "The capacity of individual sects Syncretist for survival was also weakened by the syncretist acceptance of all religious myths as being valid and true"

(I can't even understand how this paragraph fits together. Why can't it fit into any specific religious sect or order? On the contrary, several such "sects and orders" exist.)

Harvester 18:36 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Grouping some religions under the word "syncretic" might be useful for some purposes, but it seems to me that it's too ambiguous to convey any actual information about a particular religion, without specifying precisely what characteristics of the religion it refers to. For information purposes, it would be much better to list those characteristics. What "syncretic" does do, what it's notorious for doing when applied to a particular religion, is to convey a feeling that predisposes people to discount or devalue that religion, without conveying any actual information about it. It seems to me it would be contrary to the purposes of the Wikipedia to allow the word "syncretic" to be passed off as information, about any particular religion. At best, it might be said that "In view of (list considerations, or link to a discussion of considerations), some people call it 'syncretic'" JimHabegger 12:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] World religions

This needs more on syncretism in the mainstream world religions, which is the sense the term is often used by religious scholars. For example, things like Yule being integrated into Christmas; the conquistadors integrating Incan and other indigenous beliefs into the Roman Catholicism of the New World; etc. I've added a sentence, but lots more could be said. --Delirium 12:23, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

How about the syncretism that is integral to Hinduism? Although Hinduism is loosely organized and opinions may vary, Hinduism definitely allows for the practice of any other religion as an adjunct to, or in combination with, itself. Also, it can be argued that Hinduism "melds or reconciles" monotheism and polytheism. --Smithfarm 12:37, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed etymology

The following text has been removed more than once from the article, so let it stand here, for information:

The word Syncretism comes from Latin syncretismus, which formed on the same model as "concrete" (con + cretus the past participle of crescere, "to grow," giving "grown together") or "accretion" ( a + crescere) "grown towards [a nucleus]]." Plutarch (1st century CE) apparently overlooked these analogies when he was writing his essay on "Fraternal Love" in his Moralia. Reaching for a source, he found it in the example of the Cretans who were reconciliated in their differences and came together in alliance when faced with external dangers. "And that is their so-called "Syncretism.'" So the word was in circulation when Plutarch wrote in the late 1st century CE, though we have no other examples.

Blindly following Plutarch, Syncretism is often said to come from the Greek συγκρητισμός (synkretismos), which means that two join a pact against a third.

[edit] Discussion

The word Syncretism comes from Latin syncretismus, which in turn comes from the Greek συγκρητισμός (synkretismos), which means that two join a pact against a third. The elements are the syn ("together") and cretus (the past participle of crescere, "to grow"); the latter also occurs in "concrete" and "accretion".

But syn is Greek and crescere is Latin. They didn't mix. -- Error 23:42, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Error. The Greek syn or συγ (together) , Kret- or Κρητ-, the truncate of Κρητικά (Cretan), and the suffix -ism or ισμός come together to form this word. This entry should be modified. Brad O. 07:38, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The corollary to this reasoning, then, is that there is no analogy with "concrete, concretion" or "accretion" etc? Or is the unlikelihood being offered, that the inhabitants of the island of Crete are involved in those words too, in some fashion? I do agree with Error that the macaronic mix of Greek and Latin in syncretism is deplorable, like "homosexual" and many other linguistically barbaric coinings. --Wetman 12:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, homo- and hetero- were solid Greek prefixes for ages, and then some boob joined them with the Latin –sexual. American Heritage and Merriam-Webster dictionaries list the Cretan-related origin of syncretism. Disparate Cretans were known to unite against common foes to defend their island. We’ll see what others say, now that the word is on today’s main page. Cheers to the Sox. -- Brad O. 16:04, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I removed the following bit of etymology since it did not seem to help much, and that paragraph was already too heavy:

and συγκρητίζειν (synkretizen)

BTW, the quote of Plutarch seems to be rather out of proportion -- I understand that he used the word to mean a simple political pact, not in the sense of the article. Do we need a whole paragraph for that?
Jorge Stolfi 23:19, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Plutarch to the contrary notwithstanding, syncretism has nothing to do with Crete. We are all guilty of folk etymology sometimes, and even Plutarch may nod. It just takes a few words to disambiguate such an entrenched idea. Wetman 23:36, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I am still confused about the etymology. I gather that the word's earlier and isolated appearance is in Plutarch, who used it with a different meaning and perhaps with a bogus etymology (or intentional wordplay) mixing "Cretans together" and "growing together". Then the word was re-introduced by Erasmus, who took it from Plutarch but gave a very different meaning. Is that right?
Jorge Stolfi 09:24, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes indeed. On the nose. --Wetman 12:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have read that Cretans had the reputation of liars, hence the liar paradox originally features a Cretan. Thus "to syncretize" would have an element of lying. -- Error 00:37, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

...an odd conclusion. There's a false syllogism there. The "Cretan" element in "syncretism" is a red herring, anyway, as I explained in the suppressed passage that is quoted above. Wetman 19:49, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I will remove the external link, since it is in french. And even if you understand french, like you do, the actricle is not really a good intruduction to syncretism, but rather a personal view of a person on it.

A link removed simply because the available Web information happens to be in a widely-known language that's not English bodes poorly for the thousands of such references in the English-language Wikipedia. A link removed because its misleading inaccuracies is more acceptable: many Christianist links fall under this rubric.

I can confirm that synkretismos originally actually meant 'pact of Cretans'. It is true that by popular etymology it was connected with kerannumi (not crescere) early on, but the correct etymology is definitely from Crete. The meaning of the word changed from 'pact' to , well, syncretism under the influence of the association with kerannumi. dab (ᛏ) 11:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

An optimistic assertion! We await its confirmation! --Wetman 15:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

fair enough. hold your breath :) I resolve to deliver after Christmas. dab (ᛏ) 19:35, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ok, so far I included the information on [1]. the kretismos seems to be disputed, and I am not sure if I can produce definite proof. But I know some linguists favour a direct connection with Crete. The cresecere connectoin seems rather far-fetched, on the other hand. dab (ᛏ) 22:06, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed the section saying it is derived from "syn" and "chronos" meaning at the same time. Whoever typed that obviously confused "syncretism" with "synchrony." Could someone please finally post an etymology (or at least a discussion of it) to the article? Jbenhill 14:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hinduism

Should Hinduism have an entry here? From the little I know about it, Hinduism seems to incorporate a number of world religions past and present. -- Tim McCormack 00:32, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

Well, in most religions there are some influences from other religions. I think that this is perhaps rather a form of "assimilation" of foreign elements rather than syncretism. The way I see it, a religion can only be called syncretist if it allows or at least does not forbid to also have other religions. According to, say, Konkokyo you can be a follower of Konkokyo and christianity or any other religion at the same time. That makes Konkokyo a syncretist religion. --Beoran

[edit] The Bahá'í Faith

I'm going to remove the statment in the main text that says that the Bahá'í Faith is trying to unite Judaism, Islam and Christianity. This is not true. The Bahá'í Faith believes that the source of Judaism, Islam, Christianity and the Bahá'í Faith is one, the one God, but that each religion was revealed at a different time and place according to the exegencies of the day, and thus there will be differences.

Does Bahá'í allow practising other religions together with itself? If yes, then it is a syncretist religion,and then it should not be removed. If not it is not, and then you were right to remove it. --Beoran 00:04, 2004 Dec 31 (UTC)

• While the Bahá'í Faith respects the divine nature of other religions, as a Bahá'í you do not practice the beliefs of other religions, you practise Bahá'í beliefs. --Navidazizi 00:17, 2004 Dec 31 (UTC)

The Unitarian/Universalist Church is a syncretist religion, as all spiritual traditions are welcomed; religious pluralism is one of it's many liberal characteristics.

If this article is to be limited to religions that explicitly allow sharing beliefs or practices rather than religions resulting from mixings, it should be made clearer.

[edit] Kakure Kirishitan

The Kakure Kirishitan mixed Japanese Buddhisma and ancestor cutl with Catholicism, either as a disguise or because of lack of contact with mainstream Catholicism.

[edit] in Judaism

I'd like some information on the origins of Judaism. Are there any good sources on how it came be, and what elements it gained from other religions?--generally, I mean outside of biblical sources. there is.. lots of work being done on comparative religion (searching for links between regional alternatives to stories found in the OT specifically).. famous examples there are the flood mentioned in the Gilgamesh Epic (look at it as either 'independent verification' or a fear of water that was relevant to more than one culture, and that the Jewish culture acquired and interpreted in its own way.)Boombaard (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] in greco/roman religion/culture

it's sort of a shame there's almost nothing on the nearly wholesale appropriation of Greek mythology by the Romans, as well as the interesting differences between the two views on the purpose of religion. for me they probably were the first religions that i noticed the 'extended/sive borrowing' going on, but i can't really say i know enough about it myself to write anything up. Boombaard (talk) 02:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] in Christianity

User:Gschadow removed from Syncretism#Syncretism in Christianity with summary remove mention of Easter as a recent syncretist tradition, nothing syncretist about it, and not recent, Halloween is not a Christian celebration)

For Easter, see Eostre. Halloween is linked to the Christian eAll Hallows Day. --Error 00:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

O.K. but Easter is still not a good example. I took it out. It needs to be explained better. True, one could say "certain elements of the modern celebration of Easter provides examples for syncretism", if you mean Easter-eggs and bunnies etc. But the Easter holiday stands as the only Christian holiday which is rooted in the foundational scriptures and whose date is undisputed. This is quite in contrast to Christmas. And certainly Halloween and Carnaval need to be distinguished and not muddled with Christmas, certainly not with Easter. Gschadow 20:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] in Islam

Could somebody please expand this section? Right now it's one phrase about Islam as syncretic religion, and then two phrases (80% of text) stating that Muslims do not see this as syncretism. This surely could be interpreted as undue weight. I'm sure many would like to see some examples of elements incorporated from Judaism/Christianity/other religions. --Smokopilomidanek 00:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this is not written from a NPOV with the author's own bias woefully apparent in the text. Muslims believe that Christianity, Judaism, and many other religions come from a single trunk of faith (monotheism) that have been revealed by Messengers from the same God. Islam is simply the last of these fundamentally identical teachings. What are differences in fundamental teachings between branches of the same trunk are the result of the corruption of text and human understanding *not* a syncretic mish-mash of contradictions.

actually, there is a difference in how islam explicitly states they're the best and the latest when it comes to the Abrahamic religions. Jews/Christians seem to (theologically) gloss over inconsistencies a bit more, though islamic theology (officially, that is.. I don't believe very many of of the vocal ones approve of that notion) is set up in such a way that more recent insights supposedly supersede previous ones (wrt the shari'a/fiqh distinction).Boombaard (talk) 02:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I've made additions to this section with sources from the Quran.

I've changed the info without any reference: According to that info the name of "Allah" comes from the word "Allat", a goddess of pre-Islamic period. That is not true, because there is no pre-islamic god or goddess who's name is "Allat". The confused Arabic goddess is called "Lat" in original. With its article it may be pronounced or written as "el-Lat ", but it is not a noun as "Allat" in original. (actually that's like rooting the word "the mention" from "dimension") Look at Wiki's page: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzza". Allah is a derived special noun from the Arabic word "ILAH" (=god). So it has the meaning like "the only definite god". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Earendill (talk • contribs) 18:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norse syncretism

What about the syncretism in Norse or Germanic religion as apparent in Vanir and Aesir religion? --Tlatosmd 04:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gospel of Mani

There really should be some mention of the Gospel of Mani. It was an attempt by Mani to syncretise Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Judaism. Not sure what section to put it in though...freestylefrappe 00:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "External Links"

The link to timboucher.com is a dead link. I visited the site, but I cannot find the described essay on syncretism anywhere. I am removing this link. I could not find any other suitable external link to replace it. --Euthydemos 14:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] House of Syncretism

I'm opening a spiritual center in Reno, Nv., called the House of Syncretism, based on principles laid out in The New Revelations and Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsh. If you're reading this and interested, it's no coincidence. Please contact me at houseofsyncretism@yahoo.com. NAMASTE; MARC

[edit] Chrismukkah

Is Chrismukkah an example of syncretism? Also, the interfaith article notes its distinction from syncretism, but the inverse is not true. 66.167.139.143 (talk) 08:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)