Talk:Symphony No. 9 (Dvořák)

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[edit] Taken to the moon?

Neil Armstrong took this symphony to the Moon during the Apollo 11 mission, the first Moon landing mission, in 1969.

In what sense? Did he take a recording, or a score, or something else? --Camembert

Good question - almost certainly a recording, but I don't know which technology (LP or tape?). Sadly, I only found one comment about this story on the internet [1] - search for Apollo. Let me just say that I was told that the music was being played when they landed - which is not a bad idea given the name "From the new world"... --Lumidek 02:00, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

About my removing the interwikilinks — their failure to work for me may be browser-specific (Safari (web browser) 1.2.4), might be a good idea for me to put them back...Schissel - bowl listen 04:09, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Try it now - I've fiddled with it, and I think it should work. The problem, I think, is that fr, de and various other pedias "understand" the caron-R character, but en does not. Got around it by pointing the interwiki to a redirect. --Camembert

I (had to? well, ended up...) us(e/ed/ing) a similar patch for Bacewicz, alas. (Different but very similar problem.) *nod* Hope the next version of the software clears this up, even if it also deprecates — etc as I have also heard. Schissel - bowl listen 20:06, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

How accurate is the statement that the second movement is the most popular? I frequently find references to the symphony based on the fourth movement because of John William's score for Jaws. Olessi 23:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] No. 9 or No. 5 ??

Curse of the ninth mentions that this was originally published as his 5th Symphony, and the orchestral parts I've played from are also titled: "Symphony in E Minor (No. 5, Op. 95) / From the New World" --Sommerfeld 14:05, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

*Indeed. Symphony 1 (Bells of Zlonice) was outright lost until the 20th century, and symphonies 2-4 (B-flat, E-flat, D minor) were at least not published, I believe, until then. In the meanwhile the accepted ordering was--

  • Symphony 1 in D (now symphony 6)
  • Symphony 2 in D minor (now symphony 7)
  • Symphony 3 in F (now symphony 5)
  • Symphony 4 in G (now symphony 8)
  • Symphony 5 in E minor (now symphony 9).

Other works of his - string quartets, just for instance- have double opus numbers, also (publisher- Simrock- wanting Dvorak to recycle older works while he gave the impression to the public that they were newer, I think. The G major string quintet got this treatment. This is one reason to use the catalog numbers - Burghauser, B. - instead of opus numbers - to refer to Dvorak's music as unambiguously as possible, in my honest opinion.) Schissel-nonLop! 01:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration for Jaws theme

Should mention be made that the Jaws theme is reminiscient of the opening to the fourth movement? Olessi 19:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

No. Eganio 08:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving comments from bottom of page for discussion here

I don't believe that anyone reputable thinks, automatically, that the "New World" Symphony draws on Czech folklore more than American. That would be an absurd conclusion. I believe it has been clearly established that Dvorak drew on American sources, ranging from Longfellow's writings, to African and Native American music, to specific notations of American birdsong. Whether this makes his music "American" or "Czech" is more a matter of belief than knowledge, since such categories are truly amorphous.

I've written several books on Dvorak, and read all recent books on the composer and am disillusioned to see such outdated stuff here.

Best,

Mike


Michael Beckerman Professor and Chair of Music New York University

I hope you'll help us with the article. Wikipedia relies entirely on voluntary efforts. Keep in mind that the further one gets to matters of opinion, the more important it is that the opinions be sourced; i.e. our articles don't depend on the authority of the contributor. Even an expert contributor is expected to cite sources. But an expert can usually locate good, appropriate, citable secondary sources. Your own published books would qualify
If you're aware of anything pithy in your own or anyone else's books that speaks to the degree of Czech versus American elements, by all means put it in. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

The article's title is misspelled: it should be "Dvořák". Ardric47 08:54, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

  • See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). First, the convention is to use the most commonly used name, not necessarily the most accurate. Second, there are problems with using some diacritics in article titles; I'm not sure whether this applies here. There is no consensus about what should be done in the case where the native spelling of a name is identical to the most common English spelling except for diacritics. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:50, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be no problem with the article of the composer himself, Antonín Dvořák. Ardric47 13:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jaws?

I snipped

The famous theme from Jaws is very similar to the beginning of the 4th movement.

because "similar" is pretty subjective. I don't think the similarity is all that striking—I'd never noticed it or perceived it that way when I saw Jaws. I doubt that many perceive it as being a reference to the symphony. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually the first time I heard the fourth movement of Dvorak Nine, the first thing that came into my mind was Jaws (I had seen the latter before hearing the former). As for similarities, Williams didn't copy note for note, but the resemblance I think is apparent. This is the score to Dvorak 9 (on the left-hand menu, scroll ALL the way down to where it says under Symphony No. 9 "Movement IV" - "Allegro con fuoco", and it will be the first page in the strings), and this is the Jaws theme music (the first musical examples). Some things to be pointed out - both examples feature for at least five continuous instances of the use of the minor second (half step) - in Dvorak between scale degrees 5 and (flat) 6 (it is in e minor), and in Williams between scale degrees 2 and (flat) 3 (it is apparently in d minor) unless it is in locrian mode, which is possible - the differences though are irrelevant because in the given passages no further development has been made in either piece. Both feature strings in their lower registers, and have relatively similar rhythms. Both are suspensful - in Dvorak 9 the composer sets a chilling mood that eventually rises in tension until the perfect authentic cadence between the 9th and 10th measures, and in Williams the use of suspense is obvious. As for other people besides myself recognizing a similarity, see [2] (second-to-last paragraph), [3] (the beginning of the second piece by Charles Sheehan) and [4] (the anti-Williams post at the very top). It seems reasonable that at least some mention should be made of this.
    • Yes, Jaws is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard the beginning of the fourth movement as well. The first few bars sound almost identical, though the two composers go in completely different directions after that. In particular, Williams keeps up the minor second bass notes -- removing the dotted rhythm and speeding it up a bit. Then Williams adds muffled horn on top of that. There's more to the Jaws Theme than those first few bars. Was Williams a thief? No more of a thief than Dvorak. The Scherzo of this very symphony is an obvious allusion to the beginning of the Scherzo of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony (where again the two composers go in different directions after the opening few bars). This type of borrowing occurs all the time in symphonic music. Its not a big deal. 172.165.139.179 08:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I just found this page cuz I was listening to Dvorak's 9th Symphony for the first time and at the start of the fourth movement, suddenly it's the Jaws theme. It's only a few notes but the similarity is absolutely unmistakeable. I can't believe I couldn't find more on this and have trouble imagining any modern ears hearing this piece for the first time without having Jaws spring to mind. 70.230.101.31 04:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced items

This section has been marked as needing references for over a month, and no references have been forthcoming. I'm removing them from the article and placing them here. Per the verifiability policy, linked below every edit box, every item in Wikipedia should be based on something published in a reliable source. I have no doubt these items are true and that references can be found for them, and each of them can be reinserted into the article when it is accompanied by good, verifiable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I added back the Studio Ghibli link, though it's in Japanese. You can see a translation of the relevant part by reading the article. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 06:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)]
Hi, I'm a Japanese. I was suprised finding the reference in this article. In the Japanese page, there is no information except for the film used the symphony. I don't think it is good to refer. I strongly propose to delete this reference link. Nihonjoe, SOUIU KOMAKAI KOTOHA SHITANO RISUTONI KAKUNDAYO, don't add back anymore.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.243.195.38 (talk) 14:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] In popular culture

  • As with other popular themes, the main theme from the symphony set in the early 1900's to words in a popular arrangement called "Summer Days".
  • The Symphony's second movement is well known in Britain for being featured in a 1974 commercial for Hovis bread, directed by Ridley Scott.
  • Symphony No. 9 in E minor-Allegro con fuoco was rearranged and played by the pianist Maksim Mrvica in his 2005 album A New World.
  • The fourth movement of the symphony is used in Emir Kusturica's Underground.
  • Was used by Hovis in the "bike round" advertisement directed by Ridley Scott in the United Kingdom.
  • The German speed metal band Blind Guardian on its debut album Battalions of Fear recorded guitar solo instrumental track "By the Gates of Moria", that feature fragments from the fourth movement of the Symphony No 9.
  • “Goin’ Home”, arranged by Michael Brown, was played at the Interment Service for President Gerald R. Ford
  • A remix of the song titled "Rave New World" is featured in the video game Boom Boom Rocket.
  • Norwegian black metal band, Dimmu Borgir, have used the introduction of Symphony No. 9 in the song Guds Fortapelse - Åpenbaring Av Dommedag on their 1996 and 2005 release of Stormblast.
  • An excerpt of the first movement was used in the Manbearpig episode of South Park when Al Gore first reveals the drawing of Manbearpig.
  • The 4th movement was played when Luffy defeated Crocodile in the Japanese airing of One Piece.
  • The 2nd movement was used in an advert for Hovis bread, made in 1974.
  • The final movement can be heard in the anime One Piece during Monkey D. Luffy and Mr. 0 Crocodile's final battle during the Alabasta story arc.

[edit] Recommended move

It has been suggested that Symphony No.9 "From The New World" be merged into this article or section. Please indicate your Support or Oppose opinion below, and include any thoughts along with it. Please be sure to sign your opinion with ~~~~.

  • Support as it makes sense to have one article on the topic rather than two. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Went ahead and did it. Here is the text of the article, if there's anything there worth adding here: Alcuin 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

== History ==

Symphony No. 9 in E minor "From The New World," Op. 95 by Czech composer Antonín Dvořák (September 8, 1841 – May 1, 1904) is considered the composer's best symphonic work, and it also ranks among the best symphonies of the 19th century. Dvořák worked on it from early 1893 to May 24 of the same year, in the first year of his stay in America. The circumstances under which it was composed also determined its character and purpose. The special atmosphere of American folk music is unmistakeable in the symphony, although Dvořák made no direct use of Indian or other songs. What, then, can one actually hear in that symphony?

== Characteristics ==

More than anything else, one should note its synthetic character. That synthesis is certainly not limited to American elements, motifs or intonations, nor to Czech ones, nor – to adopt a new angle – elements which can be attributed to Dvořák's impressions of America and his nostagia for his distant homeland. The synthesis can also be said to embrace Dvořák's entire experience in symphony writing, the essentials of his approach, and even the principles of the so-called absolute and programme music. It would be a futile exercise, of course, to try to construe that programme as a continuous epic plot, despite the temptation to see the inspiration for the two middle movements in Longfellow's poem "The Song of Hiawatha," certainly an object of Dvořák's avid interest. However, neither the Scherzo, believed sometimes to picture the dances at Hiawatha's wedding, nor the Largo, which more than one analyst has described as a "burial in the forest," can be said to reflect any screen from the poem; indeed, the whole structure and development of the work (of definitely Czech coloring in the Scherzo's Trio) would seem to deny any such impressions. Here, like in the opening and final movements, the composer merely exploits the impressions of the New World which he has found fascinating – and there was much to be fascinated with: the new character of America's life, its exuberant civilization, its wildly beautiful – but also, as Dvořák says in his letters, unpeopled – nature, and the Americans' ostentatious self-assurance and democratic attitudes.

All that can be heard in the symphony, and one could even match the various impressions and stimuli with corresponding themes and musical images, albeit at the risk of over-simplification, since none of the themes is unequivocal, and all of them are transformed in the variations and in conflict with other themes. To be sure, the introduction to the "New World" gives a feeling of alienation, but the first subject, a kind of "leading motive" of the whole symphony, enters immediately with a self-assured fanfare, to progress to a definitely Czech coloring in increasingly numerous shades. The second and final subjects reveal obvious imagery of the black slaves' struggle for freedom, which Dvořák discovered in the the Negro spirituals. Largo, with its elegiac coloring, also owes much to the Negro spirituals, until the variations to the middle section finally succumb to a burst of rebellious vigor. The driving dance-like Scherzo, with a markedly Czech Trio, carries the symphony to the even wilder final movement, in which someone has even alleged to have heard the click of telegraph messages. Without describing to such over-simplification, we can let Dvořák communicate his impressions of America, whose chaotic and multifaceted character he found overwhelming. He emphasizes the image of America by "thematic nodes," in which distant subjects from different movements are intertwined. Moreover, Dvořák reflects here his nostalgia for his homeland, as well as comparisons and relationships between his old and new domicile. The supreme relationship is the voice of the people and the struggle for universal freedom and brotherhood of men.

[edit] "Jaws"

I'm removing

  • The theme from the film Jaws sounds similar to the opening of the fourth movement from the symphony.

No source is cited, and I have just listened to both and do not think the similarities are strong enough to be worth commenting on.

Both have a low-pitched string playing half-step intervals, but the resemblance is not close.

The theme from Jaws, as presented in the collection "John Williams' Greatest Hits," Sony Classical, S2K 52333, begins with a sustained growl, vaguely like the organ note in the opening of Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra (i.e. 2001, A Space Odyssey). A single half-step-up dum-DUM is heard, then a long pause, then a dum-DUM-dum, then a dum-DUM, dum-DUM, then a group of four rhythmic dum-DUM's, and then an energetic, driving dum-DUM-dum-DUM. The ramp-up from tentative, isolated throbs to the rhythmic driving is rather slow.

The fourth movement of the New World Symphony has a dum-DUM, a short pause, a dum-DUM, a short pause, two faster dum-DUMS and before we have time to think of Jaws we are immediately launched into a driving rhythmic passage with violins ascending the scale in a way that is completely unlike the Jaws theme.

The Jaws theme does not sound to me any more like the New World Symphony than it does to the opening of Mussorgky's Night on Bald Mountain, or the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky, or, for that matter, to the Asteroid Field passage in William's "Star Wars."

The similarity is far, far less than many remarked-on musical coincidences ("Yes! We Have No Bananas" and the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah; the March of the Children in "The King and I" and Grieg's "Wedding Day at Troldhaugen.") Dpbsmith (talk) 19:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the introduction of the fourth movement was adapted by John Williams for Star Wars, and this should be added to the article with sources. —Viriditas | Talk 20:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Are you talking about when the brass come in and not the repeated rising seconds? The brass sounds a bit like the throne room music perhaps. These types of things are interesting, but they belong more in the Star Wars soundtrack article than they belong here. DavidRF 20:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
That and other parts, perhaps. I need to refer to the composition. I've talked about this for years, but I happened to attend the performance of Symphony No. 9 by the San Francisco Symphony on November 9th, and serendipitously, conductor Roberto Minczuk thought it was notable enough to mention to the audience. If sources can be found, I think it is acceptable to describe it as an influence in this article. —Viriditas | Talk 20:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The "organ note" you refer to in Also sprach Zarathustra is called a pedal point. I don't really think the Jaw's theme opening sounds like a pedal point. It sounds more like a tremolo low on the piano register. Quite different, IMO. But I agree with you that the opening of the 4th movement of Dvorak's 9th sounds nothing like Jaws, and I am a little suprised that so much discussion has been spawned by this. Countless pieces of music can be argued to have been influenced by various other pieces, but such things do not really belong on Wikipedia, unless there is some concrete evidence that states so (no original research). Eganio 08:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South Park Sound Effect

I found a youtube link to the south park sound effect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09_5T8UmQQI . The Dvorak bit is about 51 seconds into it. The cartoon uses that sound quite frequently, and to me its obvious its taken from the symphony. Its just a silly pop-culture reference so its not that important relative to the other content of the page, but a citation was asked for. I'm not sure how to link "51 seconds into the following youtube clip" as a reference, though. DavidRF 03:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. It's a quotation from the symphony. Not sure how to deal with the citation issue. You could try citing it exactly as you suggest and see whether anyone objects. It's not strictly in line with the WP:V and is borderline with respect to original research, but certainly it certainly gives anyone who doubts the statement that the cartoon uses a fragment of the symphony a chance to judge for themselves. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The link to the video is no longer avilable. Please make aother link, please. --83.147.178.183 13:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced parts from popular culture

I'm placing here all of the items which are unreferenced in the popular culture section of the article. Once they are referenced, they can be added back into the article. There may be duplicates as this list gets longer.

  • Violinist Miri Ben-Ari used the melody for her song "New World Symphony" on her debut album, The Hip-Hop Violinist.[citation needed]
  • The Moody Blues' 1967 album "Days of Future Passed" started out as a "rock & roll" interpretation of the New World Symphony, but the project was abandoned in favor the Moody Blues' original material.[citation needed]
  • The slow movement is used in the 1974 Hovis television advertisement, "Bike Round", directed by Ridley Scott. This advertisement is being repeated on British television to comemorate their 120th birthday.[citation needed]
  • The fourth movement is used in episode 126 of the anime series One Piece, during Luffy's final battle with Sir Crocodile (starting at 13 minutes and 46 seconds into the episode). It was removed from the English dub.[citation needed]
  • The second movement is used as background music during the romantic era in the Civilization IV video game.[citation needed]
  • It is also used in Act. 04 of the live-action drama series PGSM, as an introduction to the Halloween party (starting at 6 minutes and 52 secounds into the episode).[citation needed]
  • The fourth movement was sampled in the Ludacris song Coming 2 America[citation needed]
  • Italian power metal band Rhapsody in their album Rain of a Thousand Flames remade the fourth movement in to the song "The Wizard's Last Rhymes".[citation needed]
  • A short segment of the first movement is used as a recurring sound effect in South Park cartoons. It is the short, jarring, fortissimo descending string figure/timpani stroke/wind outburst that signals the end of the quiet adagio introduction and helps transition the movement to the main allegro section. The cartoon uses the effect to show shock and horror.[citation needed]
  • The introduction of the fourth movement is featured in the movie Star Wars.[citation needed]
  • The 4th movement is played during the final battle in the Arabasta arc of One Piece in which Monkey D. Luffy battles Sir Crocodile of the Shichibukai.[citation needed]
  • The Symphony's second movement is well known in Britain for being featured in a 1974 commercial for Hovis bread, directed by Ridley Scott.[citation needed]
  • Rick Wakeman's soundtrack for the Ken Russell film Crimes of Passion is almost totally derived from this symphony.[citation needed]
  • In 1989, Phantom Regiment performed an arrangement of New World Symphony, taking 2nd place.[citation needed]
  • The fourth movement is also used in episode 50 of the Japanese anime Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo as an attack by the villan Giga.[citation needed]
  • The main theme to the second movement was adapted by Harry Burleigh and set to lyrics by William Arms Fisher as a popular song, Goin' Home.[citation needed]
  • The New World Symphony is commonly played and arranged as a marching band show.[citation needed]
  • In the motion picture "The Departed", directed by Martin Scorsese, the theme of this symphony's second movement (Largo) is played on bagpipes during the final funeral scene, suggesting that this use of the theme during official police funerals in Boston might be common.

[edit] More unreferenced items

Please don't reinsert these without references.

I would add that I don't see the encyclopedic value in simply mentioning a stray appearance of a few bars of an extremely popular symphony. I would encourage people to resist the temptation unless the symphony really forms an important part of the score, to the point where it becomes identified with the game or movie (e.g. Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 and the movie Babe (film), or the Mozart piano concerto it was that they used in Elvira Madigan. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In "One Piece"

I'm moving this here as no reference has been provided. It can be reinserted when someone has a source citation to a published source that confirms this. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Tag

I've added a cleanup tag because it seems this page has almost become about an article 'Dvorak's 9th Symphony in popular culture' rather than 'Dvorak's 9th Symphony'. There is so little about the symphony in this article, for example the cor anglais solo in the Largo, the resemblant openings of the scherzo to that of Beethoven's 9th Symphony's Scherzo, etc.' Maybe we should create a separate page for the 9th Symphony in popular culture. Centy 10:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, we need clean up here, but don't create that separate page. Unless it's something important like Esperanto, and even then it's a stretch, we don't need a page like that. Really, it opens up the encyclopedia to whoever wants to find the most obscure reference. Anyways, it's almost ridiculous to put in all of these articles; since all this music is out of copyright, movie producers can choose whatever.
One significant classical reference I can think that is significant is Ride of the Valkyries in Apocalypse Now, and that's because the song was made famous through that reference. A huge page I am vying for deletion is The Moonlight Sonata in popular culture, because honestly, I can think of one use for that list, and if one has that little knowledge about the piece in mind, Wikipedia shouldn't be the first and last resort. ALTON .ıl 07:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I too am all for cutting down the extent we discuss use in popular culture. This is one piece where the list should defintely just be small and concise. The only mention I would give is its use in a Hovis advert which pretty much cemented its popularity here in the UK. Centy 11:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, let's get on with it! I think if we can expand the real information on the symphony (I'm not that familiar with it), it would discourage those who wish to expand the superfluous info. ALTON .ıl 22:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
In the next week or two I plan to add a section on form with a medium-depth structural/thematic analysis (not quite as detailed the same section in Mahler's 2nd, to which I also contributed heavily). maestro 17:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's okay to cut down the lead. It seems a little top heavy when the TOC doesn't even fit on the first scroll! ALTON .ıl 07:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop References...

...should not be put on this article page. Read the consensus reached at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music. Any reference to a use of classical music in a modern film or piece of pop music should be put on the relevant article page for that film or pop music, not on the article for the piece of classical music because people who hear the piece in a film aren't going to necessarily know what piece it is and come to this article.

Also WP:TRIVIA - bullet pointed references to modern day uses IS trivia. For the Goin' Home references, CONTRIBUTE to the article by making a Legacy section and writing about how this piece has become popular over the years since composition, but don't just make a bullet list of unconnected pop references, (See Ride of the Valkyries for a perfect example of how to write a section on popular culture). Centy – reply• contribs – 09:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Movements

I am requesting to crate a section called MOVEMENTS and put the movement information to it.

The dicussion on whether making "sections" on music articles have been raised recently and a reply said that there are a detail dicussion a long long time before.

My point is that if there is "Instrumentation" section, there also should be "Movement" section. (Addaick 12:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC))

Now the section just needs to be filled in. Added an expand tag. DavidRF 15:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)Y Done

[edit] Tuba?

I'm trying to lock down the scoring. The "reference" here is more of a footnote than a citation. Steinberg does not list a tuba. Neither does IMSLP, but Hurwitz does. Is there a tuba in this work? DavidRF 16:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the full score book of Dover, Tuba is used only in the second movement. In other movements, bass trombone are used instead. (Addaick 12:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC))
Thanks for finding this. If you could add a citation for the score, that would be great. DavidRF 13:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)