Talk:Symphony No. 8 (Mahler)

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Contents

[edit] First discussion of instrumentation

On orchestration: I feel that the length the orchestration takes up is OKAY for this symphony, since it boasts of it. If anyone thinks of shrinking it, I may recommend against it. -- A Wang (talk/contrb.) 18:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm with ILike2BeAnonymous here. Introducing the single-paragraph form as used elsewhere would be really difficult, but the current format is an excellent compromise. We don't need to make the section look typographically huge: people who read it will understand how huge it is anyway. EldKatt (Talk) 07:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who knows it add the the number for each instrument used that adds up to 1000. I think that would add to the article. Asmeurer (talk ♬ contribs) 02:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Pardon me, Asmeurer, for reverting your edits to the article. I don't think addition of links is necessary. Most, if not all, articles do not link to articles that way. Also, the symphony is not always performed with a thousand people. About four hundred is adequate to perform it, so there is not need to add it. — Andy W. (talk/contrb.) 15:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the strings be in a separate section? It seems odd to have them under "miscellaneous". I nearly missed them altogether...--Zeisseng 17:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


How precisely does it all add up to 1000? It seems like the numbers listed in the article don't really indicate how many players there actually are. How many singers are there in a "mixed boys chorus"? How many trumpet players are there? Yes, there are 4 parts, but there is no indication of the actual number of players. Some clarification is needed.RSido (talk) 03:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Symphony of a Thousand" is just a nickname. The piece has very rarely, if ever performed with 1000 players. Some critic called it this can the name stuck. Even in a high count, there usually would be no more than 400 at most. It just looks more impressive on stage and looks like 1000 players. Justin Tokke (talk) 19:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The program notes of the 1910 premiere in Munich (reproduced e.g. in: Kühn/Quander (eds.), Gustav Mahler, Zurich 1982, ISBN 3-280-01377-1, p. 132) shows that there were indeed more than 1000 performers engaged in the first performance, most of them members of the choirs:
Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde Wien     250
Riedel-Verein Leipzig                                 250
Children's Choir of the Zentral-Musikschule München   350
---------------------------------------------------------
Total choirs                                          850
Soloists                                                8
Orchestra                                             170
Organ                                                   1
Conductor                                               1
---------------------------------------------------------
Total                                               1,030
=========================================================
Nonetheless, Mahler protested against the premiere being marketed as "fatal Barnum and Bailey performance" (Letter to Bruno Walter, March 1910) and against the surname "Symphony of a Thousand". --FordPrefect42 (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
About the 4 trumpets, they are usually not doubled at all in this piece, nor are any of the instruments, except the piccolo clarinet, and the piccolo flute. Therefore, the wind and brass instruments always number pretty much the same, so the real size comes in the strings and the harp compliment. In the case of this piece, to perform it with about 1000 players while still not doubling wind and brass parts would require a choir of about 800 - 900 (which has been done). Despite this, I have witnessed performances where they use 12 horns and 8 trumpets in orchestra, doubling some or all the parts, probably for a more massive sound24.161.53.152 (talk) 13:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil premiere and citations and references

I think this article needs citations and references. I am saying this because of a change on August 5 (2006) by an anonymous person. A Wang (talk/contrb.) 18:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I added info about the Brazil Copacabana performance (which has been rescheduled for tonight), but someone else said it's the Brazilian premier. I can't confirm or deny that it's the first performance in Brazil... Mjbaldwin 19:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, the primeire was on the 19th, the day before the original beach performance. Went and fixed it back... Mjbaldwin 19:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Text

What about the text to the work? Anyone want to add it? Justin Tokke 16:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I will add it in my spare time. Not sure about how to do the text formatting, though. -- A Wang (talk/contrb.) 18:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

See Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven). The text is lined up side by side with translation. I'd do it myself if I had time.Justin Tokke 00:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I am planing on doing the text, Original German with English translation. I have already started but is is a lot! Should be done by the end of next week, time permiting. Justin Tokke 00:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The text is enormous. (just like the symphony itself) I have taken the first step to put in the text, and it seems too long. First, I will put it all in small text. Any other suggestions? -- A Wang (talk/contrb.) 21:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me. I did not read that you were planning to do the text. I will revert my edit(s) because I would like to see what you (Mr. Tokke) will be doing. Anyway, my version does not look good. -- A Wang (talk/contrb.) 21:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


I've started the text (finally), should be done by end of week. Justin Tokke 01:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It is true that the text is enormous. The page would have to be so long. Even though this is not an extremely long work (by Mahler's standards), it is continuously vocal, which adds a bunch of bulk to the text. My suggestion is to create a separate page with the text and link it to the main page.--72.229.240.25 17:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please don't! Rather put the text in Wikisource and link to that. --FordPrefect42 01:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler warning?!

Is the spoiler warning a joke? I'm having a hard time seeing how that is a spoiler in any meaningful sense of the word. I mean, what is it spoiling? The first several notes? Derobert 04:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The spoiler is there for the people that just want to enjoy it fully for a first time without any expectations of the piece. Such a spoiler is useful to me because I want to hear a piece in its entirety without hearing stuff before. Anyway, I am removing the spoiler. -- A. Wang (talk/contrb.) 20:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Instrumentation reformatting

I noticed that Mr. Tokke has reemerged, reformatting the instrumentation section, which I am completely agreeing to. Debates similar to this have been voiced. Defending Mr. Tokke, I should say that the edits are acceptable to this article and symphonies related to this. — Andy W. (talk/contrb.) 01:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. All of the Mahler Symphonies are like this and continutity was the ultimate goal. Justin Tokke 15:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I've undone this, again. It's simply wrong, for reasons that have been amply explained and discussed to death all over the place here on various "talk" pages. You're just wrong, Mr. Tokke, but what's happened is that other people have grown tired of fighting with you, the sole instigator of all this controversy, over this matter. +ILike2BeAnonymous 15:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Reply, I suddenly have another suggestion: why not put the text around a "blockquote"?. Adding the text: <blockquote> </blockquote> around text makes it smaller. I know I did not bring this up during the large discussion on the WikiProject page; it just occurred to me now that this may work for large instrumentations, especially for this page, if a list is used. Opinions? — Andy W. (talk/contrb.) 20:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Can you put a little demo here in this discussion? Don't know what you're talking about would look like; would like to see it before trying. +ILike2BeAnonymous 01:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I did the "blockquote" on the page. I am thinking about bringing this up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Music although instrumentation was discussed already. — Andy W. (talk/contrb.) 11:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Don't like it. I'm reverting to the standard form. If it's good enough for the vast majority of scholarly writing on music, then we should use the standard, recognized formats here, not some made-up idiosyncratic style that some young eager writer thinks is better. +ILike2BeAnonymous 16:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The vast majority of scholarly writing on music?! Cite at lease five sources that look just like this one. In fact, no page on Wikipedia looks like this with the ugly bullet point squares. You are just mad that you don't get your way every single edit you make. I can tell from your editing history that you HAVE to have your way no matter the cost to others. It's really a disgrace. Justin Tokke 17:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Andy, in therms of the block quote style, I think it's a good idea. However, it ultimately doesn't save space. Just because Mr. Anonymous here doesn't like it doesn't mean it's not worth something. I think it would work but the spaces between the lines of text don't change. So ultimately you're just straining your eyes to look at what's on the screen. Anyways, my $0.02.Justin Tokke 17:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
(To Andy, mainly.) This is how I see it. This is essentially the same kind of list that we've already established consensus against (and I'm sure you know where I stand), only smaller. The main thing, as I see it, is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. We already have a consensus-backed format that works, and I'm not convinced that there's really any problem with it. EldKatt (Talk) 20:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Re. Tokke's edit summary (in reverting ILike2BeAnonymous' revert) "Why do you revert but not reply on the talk page?" Because consensus at the moment is against the format you're trying to insert. The proper thing for you to do if you want it, is through discussion to try to establish a new consensus. I don't see what it is about this that is so difficult to understand. EldKatt (Talk) 11:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)