Talk:Sympathy for the Devil
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"The most famous live performance of "Sympathy for the Devil" was during the disastrous Altamont music feastival. Here members of the Hells Angels motorcyle gang, hired by Stones manager Sam Culter to provide security for the performers, rushed into the crowd and stabbed and stomped to death an audience member who had flashed a revolver, all while the Stones played "Sympathy" for the last time in their careers." -
Can someone Verify this I've read it was actually "Under My Thumb" that was the song played when the violence started and a bootlegged live version available through P2p (where legal) entitled "the rolling stones - Under My Thumb (this is the most haunting version of this song I have ever heard).mp3" 4.14 MB (4,348,831 bytes) 4:31 running length 2 channel Stereo, 44khz, It can be heard in the back ground "he's got a gun out there and he's shooting at the stage."
Also
"This was the song The Stones were playing when a fan named Meridith Hunter was stabbed to death by members of The Hell's Angels at the Altamont Speedway concert in 1969. The Hell's Angels were a motorcycle gang hired for security at the show. Big mistake."
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.lasso?id=463 http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2000-11-18-shelter.shtml
- You are correct, the information added was wrong, and I've reverted. Jgm 01:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Dave Mason?
"Dave Mason - guitar and mandolin"
This is the first time I've ever seen Dave Mason credited. He isn't seen in the footage from the sessions, nor can a guitar (other than Keith's lead) or mandolin be heard. I was just going to pull that out, but I thought I'd see if anyone knew why that was there first.
- Simple mistake. There is no audible mandolin on the record and no Dave Mason in the film footage. Juryen 00:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Question:
"The song may be referenced in the line "Fire is the devil's only friend" from the hit song American Pie."
How on EARTH does this refer to the song Sympathy for the Devil and not simply the Devil in general?
- The Unnamed "Some" interpret the whole stanza
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- And as I watched him on the stage
- My hands were clenched in fists of rage
- No angel born in Hell
- Could break that Satan's spell
- as referring to Jagger/the Stones/Altamont, so when they get to the line about The Devil they again make the connection. Personally I think it's a bunch of hooey (as so much of the "American Pie (song)" article has become). Having a bunch of wild theories in the "American Pie" article is perhaps marginally acceptable (since the article explains that they are unproven theories that have floated over the years), but now folks are back-referencing the song in articles for every person, place or thing that the theories say the song refers to. I'd support removing this line as off-topic anyway. Jgm 00:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Who are the troubadours?
Does anyone know who the lyrics refer to as "troubadours who got killed before they reached Bombay"? Kpalion 16:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Various differing opinions come from this. Some say it's a reference to hippies on the hippie trail who were killed along the way by various drug dealers, and peddlers. Others say it's a reference to the Beatles, who's end some think began after they took a trip through India and, according to some, lost their normal feel, their songwriting become more mystical and symbolic. Another, lesser known theory--note that I haven't checked validity for this one--is that it was a reference to the traveling musicians of the middle ages who traveled from France to outer regions of Asia and India, and were often killed in their travels, most especially in India by the thugee. Once again, I have NO verification for that last one, it's just something that was mentioned to me.--70.110.56.53 09:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
As a bit of an aside, I always thought that the location was Pompay, not Bombay, which would make more sense. There's a legend of a doomed musician who had a vision that Pompay would be destroyed. Early in the story he tricks the Devil out victory in a flute-playing contest (similar to the fiddle contest in many stories), and the Devil later sets a trap that gets him killed and stops word from getting to the city. The story never specificly mentions the character as a troubadour, but you could easily see someone calling a musician a troubadour.
[edit] Who killed the Kennedys?
Does anyone have any information as to why the line about the Kennedys is often left out of live performances? 11:35, 30 April 2006
Probably so the line won't cause further controversy. --WalterJid 01:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The "October Revolution"
In the song when they mention "I stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change, killed the Tzar and his ministers" this is not all about the October/November Revolution (October Revolution) as attributed.
It could mean the Tsar's abdication in the February/March Revolution (February Revolution), or indeed the over-throw of the provisional government and the seize of power in the October/November Revolution(October Revolution).
The Tsar's ministers would have been killed in both revolutions, but the Tsar was killed in neither.
The last Tsar, Tsar Nikolai II (Tsar Nicholas II) was murdered with his family on 17th July 1918, eight months after the October/November Revolution (October Revolution).
I suggest that this should be edited.
--SaraFL 12:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Look, get rid of the whole "This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims."
Okay? I checked them ALL, and they all work, if you don't think they are factual crap, then get off your fat ass and take a look. --67.189.99.161
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- Please try to be civil, first of all. Anything you say with that kind of tone is less likely to be taken seriously. Second, it doesn't matter if they're all factual because it is original research, meaning that (regardless of the veracity of the statements) the sources for the information have not been listed. Wikipedia is not a place to draw your own conclusions or collect your own information: it is a place to collect the conclusions and information gathered by others. And, finally, you are even less likely to be taken seriously when you are using Wikipedia anonymously. --Stellis 08:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Okay then, sure. BUT, people do this stuff on ALL kinds of article, for instance, on rock songs, or rap songs, or just any songs in general...They will list off artists who covered the song right? DO they list any SOURCES? No, So it's almost as if you have an axe to grind on the rolling stones. -67.189.99.161
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- I'm a big Stones fan. I just don't let that get in the way of my objectivity. Also, just because someone else does something doesn't mean that it is correct. On Wikipedia, you cannot correct EVERYTHING that people do wrong because there are so many mistakes made all the time. You correct what you see and I happened to see this page. --Stellis 07:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any sources cited for any information in this article. Shouldn't this whole article qualify as original research?Captain Crawdad 18:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I must say it strikes me as a bit strange that references to the song are listed as unverified claims. There is no source in the entire article that "proves" that "sympathy for the devil" itself is a Rolling Stones song, and no one seems in the least bit worried about that. Does that really qualify as an unsubstantiated claim? If so, the entire article needs to be "original research", as captain crawdad says. To me, if someone writes "Sympathy for the Devil is a song about the mass murder of Ewoks by the Borg", then they really need to back it up... if someone says, "XYZ made a cover of this song", the reference is the cover of the song itself (or the CD/LP liner notes or whatever). References of that kind would however strike me as being utterly absurd. Or is that just me? Steevm 16:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The Master and Margharita
A large portion of this book devotes itself to Satan’s being present at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and Pontius Pilate’s subsequent guilt over the incident.
This supports the lines in the song:
And I was round when Jesus Christ Had his moment of doubt and pain Made damn sure that Pilate Washed his hands and sealed his fate
[edit] Song during credits of "Devil's Advocate"
I think it's "Paint It Black", not this song. 65.24.92.160 08:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The singer isn't supposed to be satan, he's supposed to be god
"Just as every cop is a criminal And all the sinners saints As heads is tails Just call me Lucifer Cause I'm in need of some restraint"
I realize not many will agree, but I'm willing to put my thoughts on the subject out there for you guys to pounder over.
If cop <=> criminal AND heads <=> tails THEN lucifer <=> god
Especially because: "Just call me Lucifer 'Cause I'm in need of some restraint"
Lucifer isn't in need of some restraint, god is. God is the one doing all the atrocities throughout history. "So if you meet me Have some courtesy Some sympathy, and some taste Use all your well-learned politesse Or I'll lay your soul to waste, YEAH!"
The 'well-learned politesse' line puts even more weight on the idea that the narrator is asking for sympathy for god. Everyone knows thousands of kids - every week - go to sunday school, where they are taught about what god expects from them and so on, this is the only 'well-learned politesse' that can be considered as relevant. There is no satan version of sunday school, but almost everyone is familiar with the notion of showing respect and consideration to god.
This song is about god being evil (Just call me Lucifer, Cause I'm in need of some restraint)and holding us to his standards (Use all your well-learned politesse, Or I'll lay your soul to waste).
I'd love to hear what you guys think about this. This is how I've listened to this song for all these years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.197.53.108 (talk • contribs) .
- I never thought about it that way, interesting. Too bad we can't use it in the article. No reliable source and all, it would be original research. Garion96 (talk) 13:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- B.S. Sys Hax 17:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
==He also says all the sinners are saints. I believe he was trying to say that things we're supposed to assume are "good," are quite often very corrupt and evil. So we shouldn't just assume the devil is "evil"
...and by your standards, the Devil, who normally wouldn't deserve 'well-learned politesse' as "there is no satan version of sunday school," would, in this scenario, deserve it. Did you consider that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.203.252 (talk) 12:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bulgakov
It seems as though it's pretty widely accepted that the song is based on Master and Margarita, which was first published only two years prior to Beggar's Banquet, and translated into English only a year later. It should not be described as simply a "claim," when it is mentioned in just about every article I've ever read on the subject. The current phrasing seems to suggest that the relationship to "The Devil and Daniel Webster," which I've never even heard mentioned before, is actually a stronger case than the connection to Master and Margarita. Just noting the similarities - Woland is a "man of wealth and taste" who introduces himself to Berlioz and Bezdomny in a rather similar manner to the way the narrator of "Sympathy for the Devil" introduces himself to the audience. There is also, in those first chapters, a great deal of time where Bezdomny, in particular, is trying to remember Woland's name, while in the song, of course, the narrator is constantly taunting people to guess his name. The whole second chapter is devoted to a lengthy description of Pilate (metaphorically) washing his hands and sealing Jesus' fate, just as Jagger's narrator, er, made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed Jesus' fate. Reading through the first chapters of Master and Margarita, the influence is pretty undeniable, and virtually every critical piece on the song that I have ever read indicates this. And yet in the article, we only note it as a "frequent claim." I think the case should be put more strongly. john k 17:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. Firstly I doubt the Rolling Stones' interest in reading Soviet literature. In Russian. Secondly, in the book, the Devil does not introduce himself as the devil or boast of his deeds at the Patriarch's Ponds. Thirdly, the link between the devil and Pilate is hardly that rare that its occurance in both these works would suggest a link, nor is the potrayal of the anthropomorphised devil as a 'man of wealth and taste'. Conor 14:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think the song probably is inspired by the book, but since nobody has a definite source from the Stones the word "claim" should be left i think. I'm reading the book at the moment, in addition to what john Kenny says the devil character in the book actually uses the exact phrase "Please allow me to introduce myself" at a couple of points, at least in the translation I have. Even if the two aren't related, its brilliant how closely the song echoes the timeless and mockingly upbeat tone of the book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.43.155.108 (talk) 20:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
== The Biggest Thing That Man Has Ever Done (The Great Historical Bum) by Woody Guthrie ==
just a few thought of mine on this song. comments please?
I'd be very surprised if the books mentioned above were the SOLE influence. Marianne Faithfull probably brought the literary influences to the song?
also, I read a Marianne Faithfull interview (MOJO mag UK?) where she recalled her and Mick listening repeatedly and obsessively to a poor quality publishing demo of "the basement tapes" by bob dylan in (1967 &?)1968 around the time 'sympathy' and others would have been written. The couple became very spooked, particularly by 'This Wheel's On Fire' (presumably the original rough mix with deep bass, not the overdubbed later 70s official release) and, beleiving Dylan to be 'tuned in' to what was happening on a spiritual level, took the recording(s) as a sign of some kind of impending apocolypse. (maybe taking too many drugs at that time, marianne & mick, eh?). I have long thrown the mag away, so cannot verify this.
Given that Woody Guthrie had recently died, and that Dylan's only public appearance since mid-1966 was at a guthrie tribute in early 1968, it's .
I'd guess that "sympathy" was conceived as a sort of update of (or counterpoint to) woody guthrie's "the biggest thing that man has ever done", taking in jagger's dylan-inspired apocolyptic ideas and fleshed out with ideas/phrases from the "Master and Margarita", "The Devil and Daniel Webster" + maybe others.
I have no verification for any of this, nor have i time to research it, but...
just read the guthrie lyrics... it's clear as day.
I'm just a lonesome traveler, The Great Historical Bum.
Highly educated from history I have come.
I built the Rock of Ages, 'twas in the Year of One
And that was about the biggest thing that man had ever done.
I worked in the Garden of Eden, that was the year of two,
Joined the apple pickers union, I always paid my due
I'm the man that signed the contract to raise the rising sun,
And that was about the biggest thing that man had ever done.
I was straw boss on the Pyramids, the Tower of Babel, too;
I opened up the ocean let the migrant children through,
I fought a million battles and I never lost a one,
And that was about the biggest thing that man had ever done.
I beat the daring Roman, I beat the daring Turk,
Defeated Nero's army with thirty minutes work,
I fought the greatest leaders and I licked them everyone
And that was about the biggest thing that man had ever done.
I stopped old Caesar's Romans, and I stopped the Kubla Khan;
I took but half an hour's work to beat the Pharaoh's bands;
I knocked old Kaiser Bill flat, then I dumped the bloody Huns,
And that's about the biggest thing that man has ever done.
I was in the Revolution when we set the country free;
Me and a couple of Indians that dumped the Boston tea;
We won the battle at Valley Forge, the battle of Bully Run;
And that was about the biggest thing that man has ever done.
[edit] Jimmy Page?
Who are these sources that claim Jimmy Page played the guitar solo? In the Sympathy For The Devil film Keith can be seen and heard working on the solo throughout, until they play the final version.
I agree. This is just another "You really got me" case where Page fans eager to believe he did everything that was cool and English.
Wgerdts 02:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)Wgerdts, 22:41 (29 Mar 2007)
[edit] Original research, but...
It's become a tradition that many fans exiting a Rolling Stones concert in which Sympathy for the Devil (i.e. SFTD) had been performed do a call-and-response of falsetto "woo woo!"'s. Then again, is it original research when you're an unwitting witness and the research comes to you? NjtoTX 23:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Well...yes.
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:BeggarsBanquetLP.jpg
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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Rollingstones.sftdremix.epcover.jpg
Image:Rollingstones.sftdremix.epcover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 38:24
it currently says that the single remix release of this song was 38:24. Seriously? It was that long? Does anyone have any proof of that? The Rolling Stones don't seem like the kind of band that would have a 38 minute song. And usually 38 minute songs aren't released as singles. Sittingonfence 23:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
If you look at the track listing for the single, there are 6 remixes plus the original version. If the track lengths for these 7 songs were added together, 38:24 is a reasonable time. Yarbles123 08:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] various interpretations, but ...
the section mentioning "possible interpretations" seems to need some work; ending it with "or it could also be suggesting that the Devil had caused men to commit evil deeds" seems a bit ... anti-climactic shall we say. isn't the idea of collusion between Lucifer and humankind stated outright in the lyrics (not merely "suggested")? and (as the discussion above shows) there's a wide range of other interpretations. since those can't be included ... why include these? maybe something like this would be acceptable, and "just the facts, ma'am":
- However, the lyrics can be read as a criticism of human immorality.[5] They outline a brief history of notable atrocities committed by man against man, including wars of religion ("I watched with glee while your Kings and Queens fought for ten decades for the Gods they made"), the Russian Revolution of 1917 ("I stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change, killed the Tsar and his ministers") and World War II ("I rode a tank, held a general's rank when the Blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank").
i've already removed the reference to the Hundred Year's War (those weren't wars of religion - more like territory/succession). i suggest omitting the bit about any allusion to Anastasia supposedly surviving, since the "screamed in vain" line doesn't actually suggest that (it could at least as well suggest the opposite), and anyway her purported survival isn't one of "the most notable atrocities committed by man against man", which is what the paragraph is supposed to be about. similarly, specifying that Rommel is the individual Jagger had in mind is not really on a par with World War II as an event, if you see what i mean ...
nice work on the article, though! i hope some of my stylistic changes, references etc are some help. swing on. Sssoul (talk) 18:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- update: okay so i went ahead and implemented my own suggestions, but since i couldn't find anything on the "allmusic" page cited to support the proposed interpretation, i decided to throw out the interpretive bits in favour of simply stating that the lyrics focus on historical atrocities. i hope that's an improvement. Sssoul (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
