User talk:Sylvain1972

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[edit] Invitation to contribute to Tibetan Buddhism

Hi Sylvain1972, thanks for inviting me to contribute to these subjects. I would be delighted to do so although my knowledge is very superficial, however I have a great respect and debt to the Tibetan traditions and masters so anything I can contribute I certainly will. Of particular interest to me would be some pages on Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Je Phabonkhapa etc because these figures are widely discussed but in fact there is little information available about any of them. I am not an expert myself but perhaps some experts can be drawn out of the woodwork? I can put together very basic sketches however. On a general note you may have concerns that I am partisan to one particular view, and of course I do have my own views, however one of the things I really appreciate about Wiki is that it enables a broad range of different views to be presented as long as they are well founded, this I very much support, even if they contradict my views. In the meantime if you would like me to review or contribute to any ongoing articles please let me know, I would be delighted to contribute.(Robertect 11:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)).

Hi, I have just seen that you have mentioned the Tibetan Buddhism project on my talk page. Thanks for the invite! However, I do not know how much I can add. I follow the same tradition as Robert and as he has been involved longer (I think) he can probably offer more than me. It is also not clear as to how many people would consider the NKT to be 'Tibetan'. However, I can give my perspective of living in an NKT Dharma Centre in England and of being a Dorje Shugden practioner if that would be helpful. All the best. Patrick --Patrick K 09:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] portal tubetan buddhism

Im also a (beggining) tibetan buddhist practitioner, but wonder about the wisdom of having a separate portal. I think buddhists are allready quite a small minority here on wiki, and maintaining (general) buddhist portal, project and articles (especially of topics and terms shared with other more numerous religions, like hindu) seems complicaded enough; creating specific portals for subdivisions maybe is not such a great idea? --Aryah 01:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic Tibetan Buddhism article (Phende)

Hi. I noticed you have edited other Tibetan Buddhism topics. I spent some time on this article, but it still remains a wretched piece of unencyclopedic writing. If you get the chance, can you look at it? I've left some comments on the talk page.
Thanks,
--A. B. 18:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You have my total support -- you might add Ngor to your list as well -- it appears very similar. I just put a ton of tags on it. --A. B. 18:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yr comment on talk page for Mipham Gyatso

I _think_ your last reply to MrDemeanour got in between his/her comment and signature, so I moved it back, based on edit history. If this is _not_ the case then I do apologize, but it was a little confusing otherwise. Regards, Zero sharp 16:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burj al-Arab

Hi Sylvain,

Thanks for removing the NPOV and clean-up tags on Burj al-Arab. As you noted, a fair bit of work has been done on it. While the subject has no special importance to me, the low standard of writing on that article was really getting on my nerves. I'm happy that you feel it's now at a readable standard.

I removed the "Criticism" section in accordance with a discussion on Talk:Burj al-Arab with H005. I feel that the currently-listed criticisms are a bit self-serving. I understand your reasons for reinstating the section, and would love to hear more discussion of the issue on the article's talk page.

(talk to) Caroline Sanford 01:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Your recent edits to Heruka

Thank you very much -- the article is in a lot better shape since I last looked in, mostly thanks to your edits. Zero sharp 10:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "President's Day"

Hi, Sylvain1972,

Forgive me for having to revert a couple of your changes to the Presidents Day article. I left you a note on the discussion page with an explanation; I think you were basing your edits on false information on the discussion page. Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts.

--Factman 00:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Hi Sylvain,

I'm just getting used to the idea of making alterations to wikipedia articles.

After reading your entry on Namgyal Rinpoche, I wondered if it was based on your having met the man, or whether you put it together from what you'd read.

I studied with him for many years and feel there is a glaring omission, but wouldn't want to offend you by re-writing the article.

I note you don't have an email link on your user page, so I'll just have to check in here sometime to see if you've posted a reply... unless you can email me (do I have an email link on my page?)

Alansw

Alansw, I think you should go ahead and edit in whatever you feel is appropriate. I don't know anything particularly about the topic, I just put in what I could piece together.Sylvain1972 14:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhism by country

hi -- this article is a mess, and I think the numbers are completely off. But please, please, don't add countries for which we don't have numbers! Originally the article listed every country in the world, and most of them didn't have any data. It was a disaster. I'd like to do through soon and redo the whole article, but I really don't think adding new countries at this point adds anything to it. thanks! bikeable (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I can see your argument, but it is also helpful as a list of articles regardless of the numbers, so I think it adds that.Sylvain1972 17:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
But the articles you added don't exist! of course, once they do, we should add them, but having a redlink to an article on every country doesn't add to the article. bikeable (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
No, but it is helpful to see what exists now and what doesn't. I plan to start the two articles I added shortly - that's why I added them.Sylvain1972 19:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tibet

Hi I am fascinated in Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism and have adde dmany new articles on buddhist monasteries such as Ramoche Temple and Shalu Monastery. Would it be possible to merge your project into WikiProject Tibet -after all much of the traditional culture and biographies etc are Tibetan buddhism anyway, I feel it could create abetter coordination . PLease see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China. If it became WikiiPorject Tibet the Tibetan Buddhism would be an intergral part of it of course . What do you think? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 18:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You may also be interested to know that I have added a gallery of Dalai Lamas !! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 18:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, but I think it is best to avoid merging the topics. They are distinct, after all, and it can't hurt to have two. However, any help you'd like to offer to the Tibetan Buddhist project is appreciated, of course.Sylvain1972 13:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. The decision by Wikiporject China was to create a project WikiProject Tibet. However I too agree with you that there is a disinction between Tibetan tradition/religion and Chinese takeover. Your project is now a part of WikiProject Tibet but I am keeping all of the categories for Tibetan Buddhism (I also created some new ones) which are now part fo Buddhism and Tibet. For example please see Talk:Ramoche Temple. THis article geographically is part of China so goes in that category. However spiritually it is part of Tibetan Buddhism project so that tag puts it in not only the Tibetan Buddhst category but also in Tibet articles. E.g for the Dalai Lama the tag clearly cannot be Chinese! but has a Tibetan Buddhism tag which automatically places it also in the Tibet category but not CHina. I feel this is the best way to do it. I also improved the Tibetan Buddhism template and have begun adding it to articles which I couldn't beleive were not tagged like the Panchen Lama! THis way your project is working with Tibet whilst avoiding the CHinese tagging whilst focusing on solely Buddhism articles. For example Lhasa has two tags yet being under the same project - this is to show that the Tibetan buddhism project is still very much in operation but is part of the wider Tibetan framework. It wasn't my decision to merge them but if you understand they haven't really been merged just organized more strongly. YOu'll beginning to see a big improvmeent in you rproject by my tagging system and I'll continue creating new Tibetan-Buddhist articles. I hope you see the idea. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 20:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't begin to stress how important I beleive this is and like you I agree that Tibetan Buddhism is an important and highly interesting subject. PLease add to the Tibetan Buddhism section of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Tibet and state the goals etc articles needing improvement etc. ALso I beleive your Portal:Tibetan Buddhism is great!!! and should be linkeed on every Tibetan buddhist article in the template showing it simportance ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 20:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't beleive the article which haven't been organized. Why has Drepung Monastery and Je Tsongkhapa not been tagged!!!!! They now have the Tibetan Buddhism tag. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please can you respond to me I know you are there!! Are you as interested in Tibetan Buddhism as I am? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 21:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canada's Soverignty

...is hotly debated among historians so it's hard to give you a straight answer. However, by 1931 Canada was declared "equal" to Britain within the Commonwealth. Yet because the Canadian founding fathers had forgotten to give themselves a process to amend the constitution, that power technically stayed with Britain until 1982. Does that work? Kevlar67 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The main goods are at Constitutional history of Canada. Cheers. Kevlar67 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks that's helpful.Sylvain1972 13:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dartmouth

Yes, I did read Dartmouth University but accidentally linked that article, which I had in another tab. Dartmouth College describes the school as "a private, coeducational university". Sorry if that was confusing; I should've worded my edit summary better. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 22:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rvv

By the way, "rvv" means "revert, vandalism". Please don't use this in reference to content disputes.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 03:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I know. After the umpteenth time of explaining my edits to the anonymous user, who made no edit summaries, I consider it vandalism. The official policy is ambiguous as to whether or not it qualifies. Sylvain1972 13:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Agree with You about "Rigpa" in "All-Creating King" Tantra

Hallo Sylvain. I do agree with you about "rigpa" not being the correct translation of "bodhicitta". In the article (largely created by myself) on the "Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra" ("All-Creating King"). I originally used the terms "bodhicitta" or Awakened Mind or Mind of Perfect Purity (in conformity with the text itself). But someone with a zest for the "rigpa" word came along and changed it! It was a bit irritating, since the main concept explored by this tantra is that of bodhicitta (rather than rigpa) in the sense of the eternally Awake and uncreated Mind of Buddha (Samantabhadra). Anyway, thanks for your valuable input. Best wishes to you. From Tony. TonyMPNS 20:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:IntothePurpleValley.jpg

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[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:Shambhala flag.jpeg

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[edit] "Large" Churches

In the list of tallest churches, you repeatedly used the abbreviation "TK." What does that mean? We need to come up with a definition of size. An example is [1] which relates to [2] which says of the Salt Lake Temple "Inside, the temple covers 253,015 square feet." If we were comparing houses, we would state the interior floor space. The question then is whether to include just the main worship space, or any chapels, or the kitchen, offices, hallways, etc. There should be a source for all figures and they should be in consistent and defined usage. Also we have to state whether a parish hall or educational wing is included. Edison 21:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It's just copyedit shorthand for "To Come." I agree it would be nice to establish conventions, but it won't be easy to get the data I don't think. Sylvain1972 13:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:TR-HHDL-K.jpg

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[edit] Congregation Ohabai Shalome (San Francisco)

You are correct that the result of the AfD was keep, but it was a procedural keep - in other words, the merits of this specific article were never discussed - so the prod was justified. However, if you plan to move the article and hopefully expand it, I'll hold off on nominating it for deletion.--DLandTALK 19:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image source problem with Image:Caps.jpg

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[edit] Surya Das

Just to let you know, there are two individuals known as Surya Das. I happen to know the one who was given his name by Neem Karoli Baba. He is not the same individual who is the subject of this article; in fact, the one given the name by NKB is not a Buddhist but a Hindu and a kirtan walla. GlassFET 16:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

My bad. It would be nice to know how he ended up with a Hindi name.Sylvain1972 17:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sylvain1972 (talk • contribs).
Yes, I've always been curious about that too. GlassFET 17:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Very odd. I'm glad you found that reference. Now I know they both got their name from Neem Karoli Baba. I believe he gave several people the name Hari Das as well. They are still not the same person, though. I've never met Lama Surya Das, but his pictures look nothing like the Surya Das I know. I asked him about it once: he just shrugged. GlassFET 19:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

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[edit] THanks for removing church

I too though church was out of place in shambhala buddhism history.

Egomzez 00:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


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[edit] Replaceable fair use Image:Traleg_Rinpoche.jpg

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[edit] Appreciation

Just wanted to say I appreciate your watchfulness and detail on the Shambhala Buddhism page and others. Great working with you here. Someone just dropped some questionable stuff on Sakya, but I'm not exactly sure what to do about it. Not my expertese. If you have some time, would appreciate your help there. - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I assume you're talking about Geir Smith. Frankly, he's a nightmare. He was banned for at least a year because he posts nonsense and then mounts vitriolic personal attacks on anyone who challenges him. I'm sorry to see that he is back. I would suggest trying to get a moderator involved as soon as possible. Sylvain1972 19:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the history. So far he took my requests seriously and paired back his edits to the history of buddhism in russia page to be something quite reasonable and more neutral. He does seem to have some unpopular views on the kalachakra, I'm just hoping he can keep an eye on neutrality in the midst of that... Hate to end up in a spat though... - Owlmonkey (talk) 23:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Followup, Mr. Smith was just banned indefinitely for some other changes. [3]. I wasn't involved in that dispute at all but it's an interesting read. - Owlmonkey (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I saw that, thanks. All for the best, as he is clearly deranged. Sylvain1972 17:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Halo Vajrakin

If you have any quotations with associated citations to improve the quality of the Taranatha article it would be most appreciated.
Blessings in the Mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 11:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trilogy of Dispelling Darkness

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[edit] Replaceable fair use Image:KTGR.jpg

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[edit] kilesa; taṇhā & rāga

Hi Sylvain -

First, I want to thank you for identifying a statement in the kilesa article as referring to a Hindu text. (The editor who I believe originated the statement in question, while appearing to be extremely earnest and intelligent, also tends to be highly syncretic and somewhat obfuscating without providing clarity regarding sources.) If this typifies your activities on WP, let me applaud your efforts and please know I appreciate your sharing your impressive knowledge.

If I may, I also have a question about another edit you made today. I see you recently added the following line to the intro of Taṇhā.

The Sanskrit term rāga, which has a similar meaning, is sometimes used synonymously with tṛṣṇā.

I guess I'm curious about this statement for a couple of reasons (some trivial, one perhaps not):

  1. Was it purposeful that you did not mention that rāga was a Pali term as well? For instance, if you look at the MWD[4] and the PED[5] entries for rāga (often translated as "passion" or "lust"), they appear to refer to the same word.
  2. Within Buddhism, I've come across rāga in tandem with a number of terms (e.g., chanda, dosa and moha). While I could intuitively understand a relationship between rāga and taṇhā, I'm not familiar with their being "used synonymously" in a particularly significant way. So I was wondering if you could provide a source for this observation -- whether a reliable secondary source or a couple of discourses, etc.
  3. Lastly, I'm wondering if this observation is significant enough to include in kilesa's intro. Might it be better placed in the "Meaning" subsection or perhaps as foot note appended to the word "Sanskrit" in the intro, etc. Could you help me appreciate the basis for your placement?

If you're inclined to clarify, I'd appreciate it. I wish you well, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I just came across raga in the "Six Defilements of Vasubandhu" section of the Kilesa article and then was curious about the relationship of the term to tanha because it seemed to have the same meaning in that context. I have to admit that I don't know much about it, so please make any and all edits that you feel are appropriate. I just thought it would useful to mention. Sylvain1972 14:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Sylvain - thanks for the quick and very helpful response. I'll give it some thought and perhaps will come up with some way to make the statement more meaningful. If not, I'll move it to the talk page for someone else (or, of course, yourself) to perhaps consider re-incorporating and/or expanding. Please let me know if you have any further ideas on this. I wish you the best, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 05:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Sylvain - just to follow-up, after searching a few different discourses (primarily based on PED entries) I decided that the most compelling association b/w tanha & raga had to do with their being personifications of Death's (Mara's) daughters in both the Samyutta Nikaya and the Suttanipata. So I moved the reference to raga to the end of the "Drawbacks and escape" section and modified the text to read as follows:
Relatedly, in the Pali Canon, taṇhā is at times personified as one of Death's three daughters (Māra-dhītā), along with aversion (arati) and passion (rāga).[1] Thus, for instance, in the Samyutta Nikaya's Māra-saṃyutta, the Buddha's victory over Death is symbolically complete after Death's three daughters fail to entice the Buddha:
They had come to him glittering with beauty —
Taṇhā, Arati, and Rāga —
But the Teacher swept them away right there
As the wind, a fallen cotton tuft.[2]
I hope you find this modification acceptable and perhaps even beneficial, desirable. Thanks again for your help. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 06:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Whitewash patrol on Karmapa controversy page

Hey Sylvain, just wanted to give you kudos on being on top of the attempts (yet again) to foist minority opinion on the Karmapa controversy page. I'm pretty sure we can assume Oestrik is the same person who's been doing it all along. I wonder when the guy'll give up? I'm pretty sure it's this guy http://www.youtube.com/user/daveyork0 doing all this stuff, but I'm not exactly certain. Changchub (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I wouldn't even call it a minority opinion. I think his approach more represents the view that events cannot be talked about candidly and honestly, and instead must get dressed up or get a spin job. And of course not only is that contrary to wikipedia, it is just plain obnoxious and detrimental to the dharma. Sylvain1972 13:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Mile-High Tower

I have nominated Mile-High Tower, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mile-High Tower. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Guy (Help!) 12:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your sig

Why does your name not link and no (talk) link come up for your sigs? It makes it difficult to interact w/ you. Gwynand (talk) 14:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know. I use four ~. Sylvain1972 14:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, OK. I was just curious if you weren't officially signing. You must have changed your sig under special preferences at some time in the past, that's the only way to explain why your sig is not the normal output. Gwynand (talk) 14:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
If you care, I think I figured it out. On the top of your screen, click "my preferences". On the first tab, uncheck the box for raw signature. This is what's causing no link. The change is up to you, but it would make it easier for people to interact with you, as their is a direct link to your talk page when you sign. Gwynand 14:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
See, I just did it in my last post, but then unchecked raw signature, now here is my sig -- Gwynand (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I see, thanks. Sylvain1972 (talk) 15:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Drukpa Lineage - Why are you reverting our editing?

Dear Sir/Mdm,

We are acting on behalf of Drukpa Publications and the organisations of His Holiness Gyalwang Drukpa. We don't understand why you are taking out our editing. We have historical facts that are translated directly from Tibetan and also new materials for the lineage. We would appreciate you stop editing what we have edited because you have undone correct facts for the Drukpa Lineage.

Your kind support by not vandalizing our editing would be most appreciated.

Sincerely, Jigme Tobden Drukpa Publications, Information Centre

The facts that you have removed from the article are accurate and are supported by legitimate sources that are cited as such. It is not proper to remove them. Please familiarize yourself with the policies of Wikipedia. Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Line 303: Line 303:

I see. Well, at least he is communicating with me here now, it seems. Sylvain1972 (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I see. Well, at least he is communicating with me here now, it seems. Sylvain1972 (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

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[edit] I have read the COI

Dear Sir/Mdm,

I have read the COI and note the "Conflict of Interests" - but we need to know who is Sylvain1972 to represent the Drukpa Lineage to put the historical facts on the Wikipedia. Is he a scholar of Tibetan Buddhism? We will get Mr. Gene Smith, Mr. Lobsang Thargay, the relevent personnels in charge of religious affairs departments in Bhutan, Ladakh and India to write to Sylvain1972, if this helps to resolve the conflict of interest.


As far as we are concerned, history of the Drukpa Lineage cannot be just from English books that are available in the bookstores, because some of them were biased information. We have in our hands translated information, provided by scholars in Ladakh, Tibet and Bhutan, which can be verified by Mr. Gene Smith. But since these materials have yet been published in English, are you saying that these are not valid facts?


Tibetan Buddhist facts should be provided by authorised people who belong to the lineage that can provide a open, unbiaised and fair picture of the Drukpa Lineage.


There are the facts that are quoted wrongly by Sylvain1972 and we know they are wrong and that should not be misleading the public.

(1) We are known as Dongyu Palden Drukpa (2) The Fourth Gyalwang Drukpa Kunkhyen Pema Karpo left a prediction letter in Tibetan that says that he would have two reincarnations that returned to this world (3) Ling Repa is not a disciple of Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje. He is the ROOT GURU of Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje, and Ling Repa's guru is Phagmo Drupa. (4) Drukpa Kagyu Heritage Projects are not representative of the Drukpa Lineage (5) Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche's poem on the 4 greater and 8 lesser schools are not representing the full picture. (6) The Drukpa Lineage belongs one of the the Sarma schools of Tibetan Buddhism, which is not wrong. The Nyingma is known as the old school and all others are under the new school which is called Sarma (7) Great lineages of the three Victorious Ones (Gyalwa Namsum) and the Three Divine Madmen are not mentioned. We have all these already translated into English.


We just want to know in this case, who is conflicting the interest of the Drukpa Lineage.


Thank you.


Yours, Jigme Tobden

unsigned comment added by JigmeTobden (talk • contribs) 18:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Help with 3RR

I have the 3RR noticeboard on my watchlist and noticed your recent report. When reporting, you need to follow the specific rules of the page in order for the report to be properly evaluated. In your case, you need to provide at least 4 diffs for the reverts breaking the 3RR rule, and then a diff showing that you warned the violating editor. Ask me if you need help with this. Gwynand | Talk/Contribs 17:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I perhaps will need help. I was concerned that if I waited for his 3RR I might get into 3RR trouble myself in the process. Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
No problem. First, it is usually required that you first warn the user on their talk page that either they are getting close to violating 3RR, or already have done so. If they proceed to violate again, that's when it is appropriate to report the incident. You could put this warning on now, read WP:WARN for some help and templates you can use. Furthermore, you are close to violating 3RR yourself. I've reviewed the other editor's edits, and while his edits don't seem good, they aren't exactly vandalism and technically the two of you are just in a content dispute. Try further discussing it on that article's talk page. If the other editor is acting improper, bring it up on their talk page with whatever policy they might be violating. Remember to be civil and assume good faith. If non of this works, then would be the time to report any incidents to the community. Gwynand | Talk/Contribs 17:55, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I see. Well, at least he is communicating with me here now, it seems. Sylvain1972 (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Facts on Bhutan and Phajo Druggom Shigpo

This is translated from Tibetan. Phajo Druggon Shigpo was not a disciple of Tsangpa Gyare.

Just before he passed away, Tsangpa Gyare told his nephew and Regent, Onre Darma Sengye (1177 - 1237), "A Khampa son from Kham is coming. But he won't meet me. You look after him. Send him to the southern valley that has been visited and blessed by Orgyen Padma Jungne. He will be of great service to the Buddha Dharma."

Tharpa Gyaltsen was born at Babchu Tashigang in Kham, eastern Tibet, in 1184, amidst many miraculous signs. Like Tsangpa Gyare, he is also said to be a descendant of the Gya (Chinese) clan. He began his studies under a Nyingma master at the age of 7. At the age of 12, he was ordained by a renowned master named Tharpalingpa and received instructions on Dzogchen Nyingthig. Then he did prolonged meditation at Lingkar Drak, a place blessed by Guru Padmasambhava.

One day he learnt of the spiritual reputation of Tsangpa Gyare from some traders of Jang Taklung. Merely hearing the name of Tsangpa Gyare generated a deep sense of devotion in him and tears came to his eyes. Moved with great devotion, he made up his mind to go to Ralung to see Tsangpa Gyare. He sought his teacher's permission to go on a pilgrimage to Lhasa and Samye. After receiving the remaining instructions from his teacher, he set off on his journey. It took him almost a year to reach the U-Tsang region of Tibet.

While in Samye, he heard the news of Tsangpa Gyare's passing away from two ascetics and he fainted. When he regained his senses, he heard about Onre Darma Sengye, the Regent of Tsangpa Gyare at Ralung, whose spiritual attainment was equal to that of Tsangpa Gyare. At the age of 33, Tharpa Gyaltsen arrived at Ralung. As instructed by Tsangpa Gyare, Onre Darma Sengye took him as his disciple and transmitted the teachings of the Drukpa tradition. After receiving the teachings for about a year, Tharpa Gyaltsen meditated at Jekar and Longdol for three years. He then went back to his master Onre Darma Sengye and related his experiences; after receiving the remaining teachings and empowerments, he again did extensive meditation and realized Mahamudra. Onre Darma Sengye was impressed by his realization and gave him the name Phajo Druggom Zhigpo.

At the appropriate time, Onre Darma Senye told Phajo about Tsangpa Gyare's prophecy and gave him instructions about his activities in Bhutan. In 1224, at the age of 40, Phajo left for Bhutan to carry out the prophecy of Tsangpa Gyare.

At the time of Phajo’s arrival at Lingzhi, in Bhutan, a cow belonging to a local rich man named Matong Gyi, had given birth to a calf with the head of a donkey and a snake as the tail. He approached Phajo for help. Phajo subjugated the evil spirit and it became a normal calf. All the nomads of Lingzhi joined together and offered Jagoe Dzong and all the surrounding land to Phajo.

Then Phajo meditated at Paro Taktsang for a month. In a vision during the meditation, Guru Padmasambhava instructed him to travel throughout the country and meditate at twelve places:

1) Four Dzongs (fortresses) - Taktsang Sengye Samdrub Dzong, Tago Choying Dzong, Lingzhi Jagoe Dzong and Yangtse Thubo Dzong; 2) Four Draks (rocks) - Gom Drak, Thukje Drak, Tsechu Drak and Dechen Drak 3) Four Phugs (caves) - Tsedong Phug, Gawa Phug, Langthang Phug and Sengye Phug.

While staying at Darkar Latse, Phajo met Achog and took her as his consort. A son was born and given the name Dampa. When Phajo went to Wang Sinmo, he met Sonam Paldron, a girl with the signs of a Dakini, at Chagzam Bridge. Since meeting her had been prophesied to Phajo in a vision, he took her also as his consort. The bridge came to be known as Lungten Zampa, or the ‘Bridge of the Prophecy’. Phajo gave her all the instructions and empowerments of the Drukpa tradition. Then they went to meditate at the cave Dodena, where Tago monastery stands today. In a vision during the meditation, Hayagriva instructed Phajo to continue his line through children to spread the traditions of the Drukpa lineage. After nine months Sonam Paldron gave birth to a daughter.

Leaving his consort and daughter at Dodena, Phajo went to meditate at all the places prophesied. One day, while he was at the Dechen Drak, the string of his rosary broke and the beads scattered in all directions. This was an omen that his teachings would spread all over the country in the future.

Prior to the arrival of Phajo Druggom, Nyoe Gyalwa Lhanangpa, a disciple of Kyobpa Jigten Sumgon (1143 - 1217), the founder of the Drikung Kagyud, had great influence and controlled a large part of western Bhutan. However, the growing reputation of Phajo began to threaten Lhanangpa's influence and power.

Sonam Paldron gave birth to seven sons. One day, Phajo took all seven sons to a bridge and, invoking the deities to decide which of his sons were demons and which would preserve his lineage, he threw all of them into the river. Three sons drowned and four remained unharmed. This story spread across the country and Lhanangpa became envious and hostile. Lhanangpa sent a letter to Phajo saying, "You cannot stay in this country without my permission. You should either look after the monastery of Jathel Dzong or serve as a stable-keeper. Else you will lose your life".

Phajo dismissed the threat and wrote back saying that he had been sent by Onre Darma Sengye in accordance with the prophesy of Tsangpa Gyare, to spread the teachings of the Drukpa lineage. Lhanangpa then hatched plans to kill Phajo, but failed in every attempt. Following these events the people of Paro and other areas began to lose faith in Lhanangpa's leadership and his influence waned. The local leaders who had been supporters of Lhanangpa pledged their allegiance to Phajo. Lhanangpa fled to Bemed in Gitagom valley, where he built the Tokha Dzong fortress. The influence of the Drigung Kagyud dwindled gradually. However, their antagonism towards the Drukpas lasted until the time of Shabdrung in the seventeenth century.

Phajo began to spread the teachings of the Drukpa lineage systematically. He firmly established the Drukpa lineage teachings as the main school in western Bhutan and exerted considerable political and spiritual influence in the rest of the country. He passed on the teachings to his sons and sent them to different areas. They ruled according to the principles of the Dharma. In 1251, at the age of 68, Phajo passed away at Tago. JigmeTobden (talk) 18:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contact

We would like to have your contact email. Some officers would like to contact with you regarding histories and facts by email exchange, so that it doesn't end up being a heated and open discussion. Secretaries and monasteries of His Holiness Gyalwang Drukpa as well as some other eminent Rinpoches in Bhutan and Ladakh would like to be in touch with you. We have referred this to them. Jigme Tobden JigmeTobden (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no objection to most of your changes. I have let them stand in my most recent edits. However, the idea that the Drukpa school is not a Kagyu school is not widely accepted at the very least. It is certainly not the conventional wisdom. I will not allow you to expunge that information from the article, that is not what wikipedia is for. I am sure that His Holiness and the eminent Rinpoches in Bhutan and Ladakh have more important things to worry about. I am in full agreement that it is not necessary to have a heated discussion, and I have no desire to have one, but I must insist that we have an open discussion. Sylvain1972 (talk) 19:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

In this case, then we will get each of them to register and start quoting "3rd Party" sources, as you all have mentioned. You should really find out under what circumstances these books were written and translated. Fairness should be there to all the different lineages, as each has its own beauty. This exchange has brought great enlightening experiences that we will definitely share with our counterparts in Ladakh, Bhutan, Tibet and other parts of India. You will see more of us, as well as our team of scholars. Kindly put correct facts. JigmeTobden (talk) 19:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I would love to hear your side of the story, actually. Particularly if you are correct and many Drukpa lamas say that the Drukpa school is not Kagyu. But wikipedia is governed by Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, so all legitimate viewpoints must be represented, and most scholars consider the Drukpa school Kagyu. Indeed, many prominent Drukpa lamas consider it Kagyu, such as His Eminence the Eighth Dorzong Rinpoche, Choegyal Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, and many others. Sylvain1972 (talk) 19:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I don't agree for you to say that "...His Holiness and the eminent Rinpoches in Bhutan and Ladakh have more important things to worry about" - If Wikipedia misrepresents facts of the Drukpa Lineage, without people and scholars to defend and correct the facts, then everyone will be quoting the wrong facts and wrong facts will become historical facts. As you said, "the idea that the Drukpa school is not a Kagyu school is not widely accepted at the very least" - we just wonder are "widely accepted" facts the truths or something else. Sometimes, majority's agreement or acceptance of something may not be the truth in totality. For example, sources that you have quoted are mainly from one particular school, how about those of Drikung, how about those of Nyingma? How about those from Bhutan? This is what we meant by lopsided. Are you saying that if we put a third reference to the fact that the lineage is known as Drukpa Lineage, or rather Drukpa "Kar"gyud - because being the white lineage, that you will agree for us to take it down what we feel is a misguided fact, that the 800-year-old lineage and its yogis never had the chance to defend. We first felt Wikipedia was a great source of correctly represented information, but you said, "I will not allow you to expunge that information from the article, that is not what wikipedia is for" - if a misquote or a misrepresentation is widely accepted, is it considered as a truth? In fact, we wanted to tell you that the lineage was historically known as "Drukpa Kargyud" - I guess you must know the difference between Kagyud and Kargyud, but many don't. This issue will definitely be addressed to all the masters. A consistency in this obviously will help to protect the legacy of the Dragon lineage and to ensure that it shall exist beyond a millennium, and not disappearing due to "widely accepted" reasons. JigmeTobden (talk) 19:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned, many prominent Drukpa lamas consider themselves Kagyu, including the ones I mentioned. I didn't realize there were some who didn't. If that is the case you should put that in the article, but you can't erase the fact that many Drukpa lamas consider themselves Kagyu. I am not trying to attack anyone, or say that only the majority gets to be heard. But the majority view cannot be erased completely. Sylvain1972 (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I was aware, the majority view has been to consider Drukpa a Kagyu lineage. After all, although it was a matter of courtesy, the 16th Karmapa did put Khyenzig Drugchen Rinpoche second on his list of Heads of the Kagyu School of Tibetan Buddhism. If there were ever a time for the Drukpa school to say "No thank you, we're not actually Kagyu," it seems like that would have been it. As far as I have understood, Phagmo Drupa who was a disciple of Gampopa's, was the teacher of Lingchen Repa Pema Dorje, who was then the teacher of Tsangpa Gyare, the 1st Gyalwang Drukpa. This appears to be a fairly direct descendancy, and although I know this doesn't make the Drukpa lineage Kagyu of necessity (after all Tsongkhapa was taught by the 1st Karmapa Dusum Khyenpa and we don't call Gelug's Kagyu) however, I do agree with Sylvain that historical sources have all seemed to consider it a Kagyu lineage as well as title it thusly. If JigmeTobden can refer me to sources that disagree I would be most interested. At any rate, Sylvain, I have this page on watch now. Changchub (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article improvement at WikiProject Tibet

Hi, I see that you are the editor behind wikiproject Tibet. Given the now more prominent place of Tibet in the news, I'm concerned that key Tibet-related articles don't provide the quality that they should. I would like to spear-head an article improvement drive or collaboration of some sort for WikiProject Tibet to improve the most important articles fairly quickly. Would you be interested in helping start such a drive? --Gimme danger (talk) 19:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually started a Tibetan Buddhism wikiproject - it went kind of dormant and then was morphed into a more general one by others. I'm willing to help with that area, however. Cheers, Sylvain1972 (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)