Talk:Sylvanus Morley

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Contents

[edit] Chichen Itza

Good article! However I removed the phrase refering to Chichen Itza "of which little was known other than it covered an extensive area." This seems to me an inaccurate overgeneralization. Certainly no major archeological project of the like had been conducted there previously, but the surface structures had been photographed, drawn, and mapped repeatedly for generations by a number of researchers (eg Maudslay, Maler, etc). (There had even been some earlier excavations, from amateur Edward H. Thompson and crackpot Augustus Le Plongeon -- I think our article on Le Plongeon is too kind, but that's a seperate issue.) Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Infrogmation, and I agree with your alteration. I ran out of time last night to properly expand what Morley actually achieved in his excavations, and overlooked the work of his predecessors. As for the le Plongeons, I certainly agree that they were at the very least eccentrics, and that today their contributions are noted more for curiosity value than anything substantial. They did pioneer some photographic techniques, but of course their theories were not widely held even at the time; even so they might have then sounded more plausible back then than they do today. The most comprehensive account on the le Plongeons available would seem to derive from someone who did his PhD on them, and is perhaps a little biased in their favour; if I get around to it I may put a little more context into their articles. Ciao, --cjllw | TALK 23:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed the phrase "whose scholarly investigations he commenced" from the introduction refering to Chichen for about the same reason as mentioned above. -- Infrogmation 17:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Infrogmation- fine with me.--cjllw | TALK 04:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Two Sylvanus G. Morleys

As noted in the article, there were actually two individuals named Sylvanus Griswold Morley in operation at the time: the archaeologist, and his older cousin the Spanish professor. This has resulted in some confusion of their biographical details in some sources; in particular, several sources used here give the archaeologist's birthplace as Baldwinville, MA. However, according to the Spanish professor's autobiography, he was born in Baldwinville, so I have elected to follow Columbia Ency. and give Chester, PA. as the archaeologist's birthplace- at least until more definitive sources can be found.--cjllw | TALK 23:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The inspiration for Indiana Jones?

I wonder if Mr. Morley was the inspiration for Indiana Jones - I mean, he looks uncannily like Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark. This Fire Burns Always 02:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Heh - I guess he does! It has been speculated, and is mentioned in the article (see the "Summation" section. It may have been him, according to one source, although the Carnegie Institution notes it might have been one of his field directors, Earl Morris. I'm not sure if Speilberg himself has said anything about it, tho'.--cjllw | TALK 02:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs more work

Going through the article, I found many of the sentences to be wordy, loaded, written in the passive voice, and needlessly rambling. Much of the content needs to be rewritten for clarity and brevity; I'm not sure that it should remain a Featured Article. — BRIAN0918 • 2006-12-23 21:07Z

I agree with your conclusions and was about to correct a glaring error when I decided to come here first to see if I would be tampering with someone's sacred cow. It seems that I would not as there is no mention of an edit war so I will change "artefacts" to "artifacts" and press on through the article. JimCubb 03:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

"Artefact" is the accepted British spelling.

Before we get into artefact / artifact changing there is an established Wikipedia rule about such variant spellings - where there are differences in accepted usage its the first major author who selects the spelling for the article and later authors follow suit, however much it pains them. See the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English for clarification 60.242.50.195 05:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The original author, an Australian, used 'artefacts', the spelling in Commonwealth English. I am reverting Jim Cubb's changes, as it hasn't yet been done, despite the above discussion. 86.142.110.18 18:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I am the original author of the article, which was written over a year ago now, so any deficiencies are largely mine, I'm afraid. Thanks to all who took the time to review and improve the phrasing; unfortunately, this came up (unexpectedly) for a main page appearance while I was away for a couple of weeks, hence this late response.

I guess a few of the sentences were constructed in a round-about fashion- partly due to my own idiosyncracies and partly to the desire to avoid the staccato effect that a run-on of purely active sentences (of the "Morley did this. Then he did that." variety) can produce. While some style guides may frown on passive voice constructions, IMO they have their place and function in english usage & remain grammatically acceptable, if not stylistically so. Still I've no real complaints with those changes; again, thanks. I do think the assessment of it perhaps not meeting FA standards is a little harsh, and there have been no issues raised re content, comprehensiveness and citations.

As for the choice of english spelling conventions, like anybody else I guess I went with what I (even unconsciously) am in the habit of using, although there were some areas where (in links like Maya civilization for example) I used variants. Others have subsequently come by and changed a few, so it's probably a bit of a blend at the moment. I suppose it could be argued that American spelling ought to apply for an American subject, but there are times when I'm not altogether sure what the 'correct' Americanisation [sic!] should be...--cjllw | TALK 08:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pun

"uaxactun, from the Mayan languages,[..] and its pronunciation is also perhaps a pun on "Washington", the home of his sponsoring institute" Seems a stretch to me. Rich Farmbrough, 09:07 27 December 2006 (GMT).

I put that bit in there as it was mentioned by one of the sources used in compiling the article, though I'm not sure whether it was their own take on it or they were working from a more direct knowledge of the name's coinage. I should've footnoted it at the time though, as presently I'm unable to recall which particular source it appeared in. Will see if I can track it down, though it's really only of passing interest so I suppose it doesn't have to be there.--cjllw | TALK 07:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "other" Sylvanus G. Morley?

The title for the section about Sylvanus G. (Small) Morley sounds rather weakly contructed. There should be a better way to title that section about the "other" Sylvanus Morley. —Black and White (TALKCONTRIBS) 21:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, it still seems ok to me. Open to any suggestions, can't think of a better one offhand. I also don't see the need for the moment for the hatnote added to the article disambiguating the two, at least unless or until the Spanish professor acquires his own article...--cjllw | TALK 07:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edward Thompson note

"Most of these artefacts had been spirited out of the country illegally by E. H. Thompson without the consent of the Mexican government; see Pérez de Lara (n.d.)." It is a common misconception that what Thompson did was illegal, but the Mexican Supreme Court in 1944 cleared him.CoyoteMan31 17:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

OK. If you have the reference(s) for the update, pls feel free to expand/amend as appropriate; cheers. --cjllw ʘ TALK 23:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the footnote without comment, because I've never seen a footnote of a footnote. However, for future reference, I refer you to the oft-quoted Clemency C. Coggins and Orrin C. Shane III (eds.), Cenote of Sacrifice: Maya Treasures from the Sacred Well at Chichen Itza (Austin, Texas: University of Texas Press, 1984) 25; Also, Antonio Mediz-Bolio, A la Sombra de mi Ceiba (Mexico City, D.F.: Ediciones Botas, 1956) 250; and others.
Thanks. We probably don't need to go into the legal status of E.H. Thompson's actions in this article anyway. Thompson's own article, and possibly Chichen Itza's, would be the more relevant places to cover this.--cjllw ʘ TALK 23:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm back to writing about Morley. This paragraph is giving me some trouble: "His directorship over all of the Institute's activities in the Maya region soon ran into difficulty. In 1926, a dispute arose with the Mexican government over the ownership of the plantation in which Chichen Itza was situated; however, the digs and reconstruction effort were able to continue after some interruptions." The only note to this graph refers to Villela (2000, p.2), but this article has nothing about the Thompson controversy. Brunhouse writes, "Thompson's situation became critical in 1926, when the Mexican government brought suit against him ... The government estimated those objects [from the Cenote Sagrado] to be worth $500,000 and seized his hacienda. This action made Carnegie officials somewhat uncertain about the continued use of his property. But the government did not interfere with the Chichen project ..." (210). As such, unless there is some other reference, I'm going to rewrite this graph. CoyoteMan31 (talk) 00:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks CoyoteMan. I think that Villela cite was originally hard up against some other point, but became disassociated somehow when the para got an overhaul/addition to it. Wld hv to check back thru the edit history, but in the meantime pls do go ahead and add in the bit from Brunhouse. Regards --cjllw ʘ TALK 08:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Early Career Edits

I have recently been researching Morley. I notice that Brunhouse's biography has not been used as a source. I have therefore rewritten portions of Morley's early career and for the most part referenced the Brunhouse book, although the facts that I change or corrected are based on my own research (although corroborated by Brunhouse). If that makes any sense. CoyoteMan31 01:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, nice work. At the time didn't have access to Brunhouse's biog, glad to see someone has. Pls feel free to further expand any points of interest. Cheers! --cjllw ʘ TALK 04:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Ditto nice work. You added the Boas controversy, which was also covered in depth in the Brunhouse book (as was Morley's espionage work, which I thought hadn't been revealed until The Archeologist Was a Spy.) CoyoteMan31 04:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I had thought so too. I guess there may have been just a tad of promotional hoopla from the publisher concerning that latter's "revelatory" nature... ;-) --cjllw ʘ TALK 05:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Excavatinos

According to various sources, the first area selected for excavation was the Temple of the Warriors, although I don't believe it got that name until after it was excavated. According to the Carnegie reports, the first project was to be the Group of a Thousand Columns, although it is clear from Morley's diaries that the plan was to exacavate and restore what is today the Temple of the Warriors. To simplify things, I've left it as Group of a Thousand Columns.CoyoteMan31 (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)