Talk:Swiss Guard

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Does anyone know - Is the swiss guard the only protection the pope has, or is there any additional security? Jfeckstein 02:43, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think it is the only official protection. But the italian security forces (police, army etc) do the main job about pope and Vatincan safety. Gala.martin 17:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed ceremonial. The Swiss Guard is the pope's main bodyguard and so are not primarily ceremonial.

When visiting Rome in 1955, the priest we visited mentioned a time when 400 Swiss Guards died in battle. When did the limitation to 100 men occur?

JFeckstein: There is also the Vigilanza, or Vigilance Corps, the Vatican cops.

I, personally, am very very dubious on defining the Swiss Guard as a military; They really are at best an honor guard, and have no practical military capability at all. - Penta 20:05, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

  • Agreed. More like a secret service type organization? Protection of the head of state is not necessarily military. Nick Catalano (Talk) 12:21, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Vigili Urbani or Corpo dei Vigili are disbanded and re-established with alarming frenquency, the Swiss Guard once numbered in the thousands consisting of several regiments drawn from all over Switzerland. The current number is set due to Vatican security being guaranteed by both Italy (thanks to Mussolini) and Switzerland. While the guard is armed with medievel weaponry for its ceremonial duties, it does have access to small arms and other infantry weapons donated to it by other countries. And the troops themselves are trained by the Swiss military. The Italian Carabinieri provide the immediate back up force to the guard and are seen patrolling the more public areas of Vatican City.

Up till the 1930'2, the SG's had several thousand soldiers and other organizations also existed. --68.80.223.233 06:20, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I doubt that the Swiss Guard ever came close to numbering several thousand soldiers, and it certainly did not in the 20th century. At the time of the Papal States the pope had an army that numbered in the thousands (including Swiss mercenaries), but the Swiss Guard that we're talking about, i.e. the pope's palace guard, represented only a specific unit in that larger force. In the 20th century it is unlikely that the SG ever mustered more than 200 men. According to a recent history of the SG authored by Christian Richard (himself a guardsman), in the summer of 1914 the strength of the Guard had fallen to forty men. More normally, the strength of the unit seemed to have been closer to 100.Casimiro M (talk) 19:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have a picture of the Guard in ceremonial headgear? 60.51.70.27 10:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)



Contents

[edit] What happened in 1870?

When the Italian kingdom annexed what was left of the Papal States in 1870, what role, if any, did the Swiss Guard play? Michael Hardy 19:27, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Uniforms

Their uniforms are worth of mention I think. They were designed by Michelangelo.--Drozmight 11:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unlikely--Vatican website says: "It is commonly thought that the uniform was designed by Michelangelo, but it would seem rather that he had nothing to do with it."

Date uniforms introduced? I changed this from 1915 to 1914 because National Geographic says 1914, and I can't find anything that says 1915.

Ahh... should there be something to debunk the misconception then? I'll add "It is widely believed that Michelangelo designed the uniforms still in use by the Swiss Guard today, however, according to the Vatican, it is likely he had nothing at all to do with it."--Drozmight 15:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] World War II

I read elsewhere that the Swiss Guard kept Nazi troops out of the Vatican during the Nazi occupation of Rome. Is this true? And if so, does anyone know the details?

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

When the Germans occupied Rome in September 1943, the Swiss Guard (and other units of the papal armed forces, such as the Palatine Guard) went on emergency alert. This included increasing the number of guard posts. The guardsmen abandoned their halberds and swords for Mauser Model 98 rifles, bayonets, and bandoliers holding sixty rounds of ammunition. These actions were purely precautionary. Although German paratroopers for a time patrolled Italian territory beyond St. Peter's Square, the Germans made no effort to enter Vatican City and there were no confrontations between the Swiss Guards and German troops. At the time, the Guard numbered only around sixty personnel, so it could have mounted only a symbolic resistance to any attack or incursion. In any event, on the day the Germans occupied Rome Pope Pius XII issued an order forbidding the Swiss Guard from shedding blood in his defense. The best source on the history of the Guard is the recent history by Christian-Roland Marcel Richard.Casimiro M (talk) 21:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weaponry

I did some research on Google, and found that the Swiss Guards are armed with the Sig 75 9mm Pistol specifically. Any objection to adding this to the page where the Sig pistol is mentioned? Matt 10:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Tread lightly. I think expanding on their role in protecting the pope during a very volitile period (in the way of powerful weapons) is important and should be expanded on, but it should not be the focus of the article. Nick Catalano (Talk) 12:20, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Couldn't tread much lighter than what I did :-) Matt 06:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Ahh. My mistake. You added it to the Sig page. not this page... my apologies... I thought it would be improper on the Swiss Guard page... Nick Catalano (Talk) 05:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • No, I added the phrase "P 75" to this page, after the reference to them training with their issue Sig handguns. Just thought it might be useful to know what KIND of handguns were issued. I never thought to add it to the Sig page. Matt 09:00, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
          • The Swiss Guard is a very functional military unit, trained in HK submachine gun usage, and all are issued sidearms. Their functional uniforms are grey coveralls and a black beret; only in their ceremonial roles do they wield the halberdier. During WWII, as Hitler moved in Italy, the SG took up positions behind heavy machine guns and mortars, prepared to mount a defense of the Vatican. They are far more than just for show. Talk 09:00, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The grey coveralls are worn only by new recruits during their training exercises. The routine uniform is a black beret, dark blue, white-collared doublet cinched at the waist by a brown belt, and dark blue pants.Casimiro M (talk) 21:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Vincenz Oertle, a Swiss historian, wrote a book about the weapons of the modern Swiss Guard. This book is based on his research in the archive of the Swiss Guard and visits to the armory of the Guard. He shows that during World War II the Guard had rifles and pistols, but did not have heavy machine guns or mortars.Casimiro M (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"Not only are the guards fully trained and equipped in modern tactics and weaponry, they also receive instructions in using the sword and halberd." Can anyone source the bit about instruction medieval weaponry? This makes it sound like the Swiss Guard is trained to use these weapons with deadly intent, but I can't find any verification of that at all. I suspect any training with medieval weapons is purely for the nature of drill and ceremony. Rapier42 22:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right about the training in halberd and sword. Since the ceremonial aspects of the corps' work loom so large, recruits have to be trained in the use of the halberd--marching, presenting arms, etc. Nobody wants a reception of a chief of state to be marred by the clatter of a halberd dropped by a guardsman. Neither the halberd or the sword are intended as first-line weapons. I have been told by an employee of the Vatican that pistols and submachine guns are available at each guardpost. The Swiss Guards on duty at the Porta Santa Ana (the "service entrance" to the Vatican) carry pistols openly on their belts, as anyone who walks by the gate can see.Casimiro M (talk) 18:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Official language

The page reports that German is the official language of the guard, and presents the oath in German. Besides the fact that it seems to me quite strange a police unit speaking a different language from the official one of its country, the oath is given in the guard language: this means that most of the guards speak in German, some in French, and a few in Italian. Would you please check this matter?--Panairjdde 09:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is true that the official language of the Swiss Guard is German. More than half of the Swiss people have German as their native language, so it would be quite impractical to use one of the less common languages. Furthermore it is quite unrealistic that the Swiss Guard should speak the official language of the Vatican City, because that would be Latin. I assume that you meant the most commonly used language in their country: Italian. I think that the Guardians have to understand Italian at least, so that they can communicate with the other people in the Vatican City, but that's only speculation. 62.46.183.40

If you look at the Annual Report on the official website of the Swiss Guards, you will notice that they switch back-and-forth between the several languages with each page break. While each recruit takes the oath in his native tongue, I think it is safe to assume that they are in fact multi-lingual, as are most europeans. --StanZegel 22:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

The Swiss guard actually have to fluently speak at least 6 of the worlds main languages with four of these being - English, Italian, German, and French. (Vanessa Carter 30/10/05)

There is nothing about this in the conditions for admission, and I very much doubt that it is the case. It would be extremely hard to find 100 people in Switzerland who fit the condition of admission AND fluently speak 6 languages. Schutz 14:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

According to the official site of the Swiss Guard (http://www.schweizergrade.org), each Guardian who is serving at an entrance has to participate in an Italian course.ṭ

[edit] Estermann Murder Section

This section seems rather random. Should it have more preface and/or explanation within the paragraph? It seems like someone just copied the section from another article that had previously mentioned some issues that are unclear in this article. I don't know enough about the incident to revise it, but if someone else could fix it, I think the article would be better. Clarkefreak ∞ 02:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed two things:
  1. The "Further information at Mehmet Ali Ağca"; it's an only very marginally related and completely unconfirmed connection.
  2. "It is also of note that Estermann was the first captain commander of the Swiss Guard who was not a noble."—can somebody explain to me what a "Swiss noble" is supposed to be?
Lupo 08:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we get a mention of who Alois Estermann is in the section? His name is in the first sentence and initially the relation to the whole article isn't clear.

BOOKS. I recommend the book BLOODY LIES IN VATICAN, by a group of Vatican peoples who signed "Disciples of Truth", edited in Italy by Kaos Edizioni. It's original title is, in Italian, BUGIE DI SANGUE IN VATICANO. I don't know if an English version is available. Val

[edit] The Oath..

..is actually all German; there's not a single French or Italian word in it (OK, one or two are very obviously derived from Latin, but that's it, they're still German). Plus the translation of the part the recruits have to say is sort of faulty; "so wahr mir Gott und seine Heiligen helfen" means "may God and his saints help me".. 23:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

What's your point? The reason they showed the German oath is because that's what it most commonly given. --KelticKTalk 23:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also

How does the US National Guard relate to this article? --Miked84 23:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Not at all, except for also having "guard" in its name. :-) Lupo 08:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

In the article the Swiss Guard entered Vatican City on January 22nd, but according to the January 21st page, it happened on that date.

Moreover, we say the Swiss Guard started fighting in 15th century, but we only speak about 16th century or later events.

gala.martin

Yes, the introductory paragraph is confused. Swiss Guards are/were small Swiss mercenary detachments that serve(d) as bodyguards at foreign courts. Other Swiss mercenary troops fought for many armies but were not "Swiss Guards". The mercenary business started after the Burgundy Wars, i.e. in the late 15th century. The Papal Swiss Guard was the first "Swiss Guard" and, as the article correctly states, became operative in early 1506, i.e. the 16th century. I'll amend that lead section. And January 22 is correct. Lupo 08:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I've fixed January 21 and January 22 regarding the Papal Swiss Guard.
Oops, actually the Papal Swiss Guard was not the first. The Swiss Historical Encyclopedia on the general Subject of "Swiss Guards" says (in French): "En 1497, le roi Charles VIII créait la compagnie des Cent-Suisses de la garde, première unité suisse permanente au service d'un souverain étranger, corps de parade plutôt que militaire, supprimé en 1792 par l'Assemblée nationale, rétabli en 1814 par Louis XVIII et qui subsista jusqu'en 1830." ("In 1497, king Charles VIII of France founded the "Guard of the Hundred Swiss", the first standing Swiss unit in the service of a foreign power, more a parade corps than a military unit, which was dissolved in 1792 by the Assemblée nationale (either the Legislative Assembly or the National Convention), reconstituted by Louis XVIII of France in 1814, and which subsisted until 1830.") There we have the 15th century (by a mere 4 years). Lupo 08:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Good job, Lupo! I was wondering if we should shortly write this date (1497) in "Swiss Guard in France", since we cite Guard of the Hundred Swiss. Gala.martin 21:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Papal Swiss Guard and the Swiss constitution

The article currently says on the Papal Swiss Guard that it "is an exception to the Swiss rulings of 1874 and 1927". I thought all mercenary services were explicitly forbidden already in article 11 of the 1848 constitution of Switzerland "Es dürfen keine Militärkapitulationen abgeschlossen werden" (its first constitution as a modern federal state). In fact, the Swiss Historical Encyclopedia says (in French): "Comme la Constitution fédérale de 1848 interdisait toute nouvelle capitulation militaire, Pie IX se décida à conclure un accord directement avec la garde. Depuis lors, le recrutement se fait par relations personnelles." ("As the constitution of 1848 prohibited all new military capitulations, Pope Pius IX decided to sign a contract directly with the Guard. Since then, all recruitement is done through personal private channels.") What are these "relations personnelles", and what is the legal standing of a Swiss Guard? Is it viewed (legally) not as a military or mercenary service but as an ordinary employment? May a Swiss citizen legally serve as a mercenary under a private contract (say, in the French Légion étrangère)? I thought not. What about the Papal Swiss Guard? Why the mentions of 1874 and 1927, and what "rulings" are meant? (1874 probably refers to the revision of the Swiss constitution, but I am unaware of that revision having changed anything with respect to mercenary services.) Lupo 08:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Papal Swiss Guards vs. other Swiss Guards.

I think the article should be Papal Swiss Guards and the link from vatican related articles changed. --Gbleem 02:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No. However, if this article grows, we could separate out Papal Swiss Guard and just leave a summary here. The Papal Swiss Guard was nothing special, and in fact rather insignificant in history (maybe with the exception of their role in the Sack of Rome), whereas e.g. the Cent-Suisses have a rich military history. What does make the Papal Swiss Guard special is the mere fact that it still exists today. Lupo 07:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Estermann Killing

This section claims critics attacked Estermann's character. No evidence is offered as to who was supposedly doing this and what they were saying. If a statement like this is used sources and evidences have to be provided. The entire article lacks anything much in the way of sourcing, but this entire paragraph seems for the most part to be POV-pushing. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 22:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] references

no references are listed, and the footnotes dont link properly to refences. Sam Bedggood 06:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Was due to vandalism. Reverted now. Lupo 11:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Images

I'd prefer to see the vaguely redundant Image:SwissGuardsatPrefettura.jpg and Image:Vatican 2.jpg removed, as they offer nothing that the main image does not - and some more unique images brought in, perhaps of the murdered officer, the ranks, a procession, something more than a "touristy postcard image" which is better suited to remain on WIkicommons Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 17:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this is not an image of Swiss Guards at the Prefettura Pontificia. The scene is the guard post at the so-called Bronze Doors, an entrance to the papal palace located in the right hand colonnade of St. Peter's Square. The Bronze Doors are the main entry for visitors with appointments in the various offices housed inside the papal palace. This spot is very popular with tourists seeking photos of Swiss Guards on duty. Casimiro M (talk) 18:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Family Tradition?

It appears that the Pfyffer von Altishofen family has a tradition of being the head of the Swiss Guard since the 1500's. It would be interesting to read more about this. --Kimonandreou 15:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Estermann killing" section

I notice this was removed by an anonymous editor on 14 January. Granted, the section seems to have been a bone of contention in the past, but it seems somewhat remarkable that there should now be no mention of Estermann at all on the page, apart from in the list of Commanders. One would think that him ceasing to be one ten hours after the appointment as a result of a violent death would be worth a mention! Nick Cooper 22:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Salary?

Does anyone know how much members of the Swiss Guard are paid? Just wondering, (12.218.46.67 04:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Travel Abroad

Does anyone know - Does the swiss guard travel with the pope?Agatha61 17:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

When the pope travels, two or three Swiss guardsmen accompany him as personal bodyguards. These guardsmen usually are graduates of "executive protection" courses organized in Switzerland. The Vatican relies on the Italian police and security services to provide the bulk of protective services when the pope travels inside Italy, and on the services of the host country when he travels to other countries.Casimiro M (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage

Are the guards of the Pope allowed to marry? If so, when? The Guard Commander whowas murdered had a wife. I am a neutral editor (talk) 03:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Women?

I'm just curious, are there any women Swiss Guards? I've only seen pictures of men. Thanks! Kim A M —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.151.116 (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The Swiss Guard is an all male organization.Casimiro M (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)