Talk:Swimming

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As a Ph.D. physicist, with decades of swim coaching experience – the “technique” section is riddled with scientific and conceptual errors. I suspect it was written as a commercial plug for fluent.com
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Contents

[edit] Nude Swimming

what is the word used for swimming nude.

The word for swimming nude is what is mentioned in the next article and I believe that is wrong unless it is a naked hot girl. Men, am I right?

I believe the term you're looking for is "skinny dipping". -- Hadal 09:54, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Chlorine

I'm not going to bother changing the article but Chlorine in swimming pools very rarely causes eye irritation. Although it is commonly attributed to Chlorine, eye irritation is almost always caused by a pH different than that of the human eye (7.5).

Also, Chlorine is not the cause of swimmers' hair turning green. That is caused by copper (whether found in the pool or in the hair). - MyTwoCents

Your first statement is not really correct. Chlorine itself does not cause eye irritation but the red eyes from a swimmnig pool is usually not caused by pH levels either (unless they are severly off). The most common cause is from chloamines. When chlorine oxidizes something the left over result is chloramine. As the chlorine in a pool is used a greater level of chloramines results. A pool with a high level of chloramine gives off a very chlorine like smell and will cause red eye irritation. The pool operator then will add Chlorine at least 10 times the amount of Chloramine to the pool (reffered to as shocking the pool) which elminates all the chloramines. This is a very basic concept in pool chemistry and any pool operator will be aware of this and regularly shock the pool to prevent chloramine build up.--Csfgdead 04:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Something

Removed "Swimming in general is the flotation of an object in a liquid due to its buoyancy or lift" from the introduction. Surely that's "floating"? Mswake 23:31, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Wasn't too excited about this when i edited the article, too. -- chris 73 Talk 00:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Heat burns calories?

Secondly, in exercise many calories are burnt due to the increased body temperature (see: Perspiration). However, during swimming the body is cooled down almost instantly as the surrounding water is usually cooler than the body temperature, reducing the number of calories burnt.

Seems a reversal, burning calories produces heat. I removed it. Please give a reference if you still think it is correct.--Patrick 08:02, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I did some more research online. The exact reasons why swimming does not help in loosing weight are poorly understood. I found three possible reasons:
  • The "insulating fat layer". This seems to be pretty certain to be one reason
  • The appetite decreases as body temperature increases ([1], [2]). This is a new reason I added, although it is not yet proven (stated as unproven in the article page)
  • Finally, the reason you removed, which I rephrased. The metabolism slows down in colder water/at a colder body temperature, subsequently burning less calories. For example, drowned children have survived up to 70 minutes under ice cold water, which can only be possible if the brain metabolism slows down to an almost stop. I also read about this related to swimming on two occasions, but both of them on paper, and I do not have an online reference. One occasion was during my swimming coach education classes. In any case, i stated it as unproven in the main article.
I rewrote the section. Hope this is an improvement, and that the above answers your questions. Let me know if you have any comments about it, and we can work it out. -- chris 73 Talk 13:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, it is clearer now.--Patrick 20:28, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Entering a pool or other place of bathing

66.167.138.174 02:56, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC): This section from the article has been moved here in case there are parts of it which are worth re-incorporating:

Pools are ordinarily entered by way of stairs, or a ladder, to permit slow (gentle) entry that avoids splash or the risk of getting water in the ears or nose, for beginners. As bathers get more comfortable (and experienced) they often just jump into the water. Some children like to run along the pool deck, to increase the thrill factor of the jump, but many bathing complexes prohibit running, for safety reasons.

Jumping into water from a high elevation, such as 1m, 3m, 5m, or 10m (in deep pools), and cliff-jumping into the waters of abandoned quarries, is another form of recreation. The sudden inrush of water provides an thrilling experience that children (of all ages, including their parents) often enjoy. Many facilities have cement platforms for a "fun swim" in which children of all ages can climb up a cement tower and jump into the pool from a height of 5m, and sometimes 10m. Cliff jumping at 20m is also a common form of recreation, but there are limits to heights of safe jumps, e.g. jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge at a height of 220 feet (66m) results in certain death, and is only done for purposes of suicide. Such jumps exceed the recreational limits of that the human body can withstand. Pools normally don't provide more than 10m height, as this is seen as the safe limit. Some pools, such as Woodbine Bathing Station/Summerville Olympic Pool have closed off the 10m height to children, for safety reasons.

Entering the pool by stairs or ladder is gentle enough as not to get water in the nose, but entering from a greater height is more safely done feet first, with the nose pinched shut with one hand to prevent water from being forced into the nasal passages, becuase if it is contaminated water, serious infection can result, including edema of the brain -- which can be fatal. Earplugs should NOT be used, because at depth, the swimmer needs to clear their ears to prevent injury. Ear plugs should be used only for surface (lap) swimming in clorinated pools. Anyone who descends beneath the surface is advised not to use them. Head first entries should never be done -- unless the swimmer is expert, has a swim buddy along, and most importantly, has submerged and checked the impact area for depth and any UW obstacles.

When swimming to the end of a pool, one can stop, re-orient, and change directions but experienced swimmers execute a flipturn, so that they do not lose momentum, and don't need to stop and hold onto the wall to change the direction of their bodies.

In lane swims, there is usually one preferred side to enter the pool from, so that people do not jump on top of other bathers. For safety, it is important to have structure and care in the manner in which people enter the water, especially if from a raised area such as a starting block, springboard, or cement tower. Entry and exit from the baths is usually specified by lifeguards to keep the flow of traffic operating in a safe and efficient manner.


'''DIVE LEVIS! ' 'The famous 'top and levis' — a neoprene jacket and shrink-to-fit Levis remains one of the best diveskins, offering protection from overexposure to the sun, stings, and abrasion. Levis 501, 505 and 512 Red Tab have a hydrodynamic fit for swimming and diving. Levis have been featured in a variety of under-water commercials: The Mermaid, The Levis Swimmer, The French Dictionary, and numerous beach commercials in the 1990's. Advertised as 'your second skin', Levis are considered by intrepid swimmers and divers to be an extension of their aquatic body, and became popular starting in the 1960's with the famous 'white levis' worn by surfers. Aussie lifeguards used to use womens nylons for protection against stings from jelly fish and the dreaded Portugese Man of War. In 1983, some enterprising Auusies developed lycra dive skins to replace the nylons, and they have been popular since.

[edit] Weight Loss

Swimming is often unhelpful in weight loss because swimmers spend only twenty minutes or less per workout. To effectively burn calories in anyworkout, swimming included, you must spend at least 45 minutes daily on the activity.

[edit] Legionnaires disease

Moved from article:

The sentence on Legionnaires disease is inaccuarate. I was an author of the first scientific article describing the showering link to Legionnaires' disease (Cordes Ann Internal Med 1980). The study was flawed and 5 case-control studies show that showering is NOT linked to Legionnaires disease. Moreover our research group devised the heat and flush method for legionella disinfection (Best, Lancet 1983). It is unnecessary for swimming facilities. For more info, go to the FAQ on the home page of www.legionella.org . Victor L Yu (victorlyu@yahoo.com, 412-688-6643, office phone)

Niteowlneils 07:03, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this passage needed to be removed from the article, but if the information on Legionnaires is inaccuarate as claimed it should be removed from the article as well. Tkessler 23:31, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yards/meters

In the competitive swiming section, at the end of the discription of each stroke it states that the events can also be mesured in yards. I think that a statement along the lines of: In professional competitions, most distances are mesured in meters, but school teams commonly use yards.

Perhaps an explanation of why would also be useful.


How about: "In professional competition, distances are measured in metres, but in the United States, school teams commonly use yards"

Because most countries outside the US use metres for all levels of swimming :)

My guess: It is pretty tough to make a 100 m competition in a 25 or 50 yard pool ;) -- Chris 73 | Talk 08:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I am an happy user of american standard units but also a competitive swimmer and I really don't see any reason to mention yards in a statement about "competitive swimming". I swam and coached summer and HS teams that swam sc yards but all competitive swimmers know that meters is the competitive standard. -- Also I have never heard of a "professional competition" in swimming. --68.50.242.210 09:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are you in a Swim Team?

If you are a first time swim team join, you might not get used to how a meet of competion starts. I just want to tell you that when you are swimming, for swim for fun and you try to beat your time. Don't put pressure on yourself, just relax!! :)!

~ A student in bls in Hr:227 (j.S.Y.) September 30, 2005

[edit] Fat in swimming

While theories abound, no studies can verify or explain a real difference. These studies clearly leave the way open for further research. Techniques such as the double-labelled water method of energy expenditure estimation might provide a new way to measure energy balance issues. A final idea that needs to be explored is whether a selection process is at hand. Elite swimmers may be predisposed to have higher body fat levels because it is a help, or at least less of a disadvantage, to their swimming. Rounded shoulders and smooth curves may be more biomechanically sound than bony angles. Higher body fat levels are a greater disadvantage to weight-bearing sports like running. So perhaps those who aren't genetically inclined to very low body fat levels, but are otherwise possessive of high-level endurance qualities, should head for the water at an early age! http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/fat.html (copied from main page, added by user:24.161.188.9)

The original text added by user:24.161.188.9 was Additionaly, since fat is less dense than muscle tissue and therefore more buoyant, it stands to reason that competitive swimmers are naturally more inclined to have higher bodyfat percentages vis-á-vis other competitive athletes. I agree that swimming is not a good way to loose weight, because the body fat stays high (see also discussions above). The reason for this, however, is most unlikely to be the need for buoyancy, hence I removed the text. I doubt you on the buoyancy part, not the fat layer part. My apologies if my removal came across as harsh, I added the sportsci-link to the references again. If you have further comments, please feel free to discuss them here. -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
In any case, since it is referred to in literature, I added it again (slightly reworded). -- Chris 73 | Talk 22:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


It's just that most studies have addressed the empirical question, "why is it competitive swimmers don't seem to be as lean as their land-based athletic counterparts?" Personally, I've found swimming to be an excellent means to stay trim, but then again, I'm not a competitive swimmer-- while my movements aren't as efficient in the water and I burn more calories as a result, my naturally lower body fat percentage may be the reason why I can't swim quite as efficiently. BTW, higher bodyfat percentages do seem to contribute to better buoyancy: "However, propelling one's body through water is quite different than moving through air, and it's possible that pudginess might be an advantage in the water. For one thing, fat has a lower density than water (muscle and bone have higher densities). Thus, while muscle and bone make you sink like a rock, fat can make your body more like an unsinkable buoy. As a result, corpulent swimmers can use their muscular power to drive their bodies forward and don't have to waste energy providing vertical lift in the water column. Also, as fat converts an athlete's body into a sort of fishing bobber, it also reduces the 'drag' (friction) with which water slows down swimming speed. To put it simply, with more fat there's less of the body in the water, less drag, and therefore (one might hope) higher performance." http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0346.htm I know this article hardly qualifies as "scholarly research," but I'm sure lexisnexis might have something useful.

I think I misunderstood your first edit that your genetic body fat changes because you swim, which I objected, but you meant that someone (possibly) swims well because of a geetic body fat level. That I agree. I added the point again, hope this is OK with you, and feel free to edit it if you want. Also, if you like editing Wikipedia, why don't you get an account? Happy editing -- Chris 73 | Talk 07:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hair

uh...thought there might ge something in the competition section about shaving body hair to reduce drag...

Added a (very small) section to the article -- Chris 73 | Talk 10:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Body is not 70% water.

The body has many fluids, but it is a common mis-conception that the body is primarily of water. Elements such as fats, calcium, fiber and many minerals make up the body composition along with many fluids that are not water. Most of these solids happen to have density totals that are close to water. Our body's elements have huge oxygen levels (or have the ability to have large oxygen levels) or other gaseous properties. These levels determine the tendancy of our bodies floating or not floating. JosephR 04:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Body is not 70% water and is not less dense than the surrounding water!

The original text Since only roughly 70% of the body is water, it is slightly less dense than the surrounding water, which exerts a buoyant force on it. should be taken out.

If this were true, our bodies would always float no matter what position we are in while in water. Still floating on water requires at least some hand and leg movement to increase bouyancy. The only exception I can think of is over some very salty waters where you can float on your back with little effort. ~ dbandrade 14:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swimming Lessons

"Swimming lessons are so common that it has even been suggested it be included in the public school curriculum."

In the UK, many schools provide swimming lessons for students. I have edited the article to reflect this. fatbarry2000 13:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Same in Ireland - all schools are obliged to include swimming lessons in curriculum. CGorman 19:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm almost certain that one of the U.S. Presidents made it a requirement for all students in the U.S. to learn to swim. But I can't recall the details nor which president did this. I would be interested in knowing if this is true. --Dennis Fernkes 16:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused by this. Why is it that humans need to be taught how to swim while my dog decided to just jump in and swim one day. 192.122.237.11 15:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I even know people who are physically all right, but definitely unable to learn swimming. This is somehow comparable to people who, although sometimes being highly intelligent, have difficulties in or are completely unable to learn reading, writing or calculating. I guess, the inherent nonswimmers are about two percent of the population in every larger country. They often manage to hide it quite skillfully, so they seldomly show up in official statistics. The other way round, a comparable percentage of people have an innate ability to swim.
By the way. Learning to swim (only) in school is nonsense anyway.

[edit] Competitive Swimming

Competitive swimming became popular in the nineteenth century, and currently comprises 32 events - 16 male events and 16 female events - at the Summer Olympic Games.

Well, there are actually 17 recognized events for both men and women, but only 13 of them are swum at the Summer Olympics. I changed the article to reflect this. This doesn't address the fact that short-course competitions have an eighteenth event, but that distinction probably doesn't belong in a subsection like this. Nails67 15:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)Nails67

[edit] Cultural perceptions on swimming

Is swimming uncommon in some societies or groups or more common in others? Is there an aversion or an attraction to it in certain areas? I think that would be an interesting question to answer.

[edit] Propelling methods

Replaced "This propelling is accomplished by cupping the hands and using them as paddles, and by kicking the legs to push water away from the body" with "This propelling is accomplished by using the hands and forearms as paddles, and by kicking the legs to push water away from the body (though kicking accounts for relatively little overall)," as cupping your hands is poor technique (see http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6647, for instance, and how efficient the kick is in propulsion is still a topic of some contention.

[edit] Open-Water Swimming

I believe we can add a section under 'competitive swimming' that highlights the rules and customs of open water racing, and possibly link that section to triathalons.

Re: Strokes in Rough Water: I think the information about butterfly being a better stroke than front crawl for rough water is incorrect. In butterfly, the arms move low across the water, and are more likely to get 'caught' in the waves. Because the recovery has a higher elbow in front crawl, you're less likely to be affected. I did a fair bit of shoulder damage with a front crawl style that didn't have a high enough elbow -- let the swimmer beware! --192.75.95.127 05:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Plait?

An anonymous user (206.123.212.67) added the following:

Also, in the early 1900\'s the New England area in the United States fabricated a new and \"improved\" way of the corkscrew, a combination of backstroke and freestyle, called the \"Plait\". People nicknamed it as the \"Ingles\" because it was as complicated as fire. The creaters wanted to add this stroke to the four main strokes as a fifth stroke. The rest of America did not comply, so the \"Plait\" went out of style into history. Today, few parts of New England use the \"Plait\" as a fifth stroke-usually in only regionals and states, but never nationals. There is only about 20 towns across the US that use it today, but it is still history.

This seems odd to me, and a quick Google search didn't find anything to back it up. If there is any merit to this, please feel free to put it back. -Adjusting 23:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hair nutrients?!

"Chlorine strips nutrients out of the hair, damaging it severely and turning it "frizzy.""

while it does make it "frizzy" hair is dead keratin protein, there aren't any 'nutrients', nor would it matter if they where. chlorine damages the protein structure of hair causing nick's in the structure and causes irregular hydrogen bonding, thus each hair not only gets 'rougher' it also bends oddly, making it 'frizz' ----The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jcforge

Please sign and date your talk posts by typing ~~~~ (4 tildas) Analoguekid 03:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing material without references or citations

I've cut the "Exercise" section to remove the material on swimming and burning body fat as it's been flagged for a while as non-referenced. If anyone feels this should be reintroduced can I suggest that we do it carefully - beginning with at least one properly referenced study that estalishes the existence of this proposed difference between swimming and other forms of exercise?

Mswake 15:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Does somebody have a better, more competitive-looking picture to use? Any opinions?? Tingalex 19:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Etiquitte

How about something on lane swimming etiquitte? --192.75.95.127 05:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Osteoporosis and swimming

I have added this injury. I discovered this after my own rare and medically bizaare mid-age osteoporosis and my subsequent research. Examples of supporting evidence can be found, for example, at http://www.fitness.gov/osteoporosis.pdf and studies by D R Taaffe and others —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.149.174.137 (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Jammers for swimming

I removed the small paragraph in the "competitive swimming" seciton describing the kind of suit worn. As a competitive swimmer, I find this paragraph to be inaccurate and vague. It refers only to the type of suits worn be men (makes no reference to female swimwear), and considering that "jammers" are obviously not worn be nearly all men, the list is far from complete. It is poorly written, and the factuality is decent at best. I would be glad to hear or dispute any objections....Tingalex 01:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Having this page on my watchlist, I notice it getting vandalized at least three times per day every day. It is getting frustrating removing all the bad-faith edits that seem to appear. Does anyone else think this page warrants semi-protection?--Analogue Kid 18:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Analogue Kid. What kind of vandalism are you finding? I'd be happy to help you police it. I just came to this page, so I've only just put in on my watchlist.
Also, I would like to make this page more detailed where necessary and create separate entries for subsections that need to be expounded upon. Is this something that you would be interested in helping with or not really? ask123 21:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that semi-protection is warranted. I have been following this page, though infrequently, for a couple months, and I am surprised at the constant (and often truly bizarre) vandalism attacks that occur here.--Pjb dinky 00:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)Pjb_dinky

[edit] UK higher education

The article says that swimming is compulsory in the UK higher education system. This, in my experience, is untrue. Am I missing something?


You are not missing something. I'm certain that its not compulsory in the UK higher education system. I can't imagine any university taking a persons ability to swim into account when offering places. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.48.46.141 (talk) 12:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

I was never asked if I could swim for my degree - this is silly, I'm removing it

[edit] Contradiction

in ability to swim:

"To stay afloat in water, very little action is needed; the human body is slightly more dense than the water. "

And in swimming:

"Roughly, 70% of the body is water; while the lungs are filled with the air, the body is slightly less dense than the surrounding water, which exerts a buoyant force on it. "

Which is correct? Wolfmankurd 13:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your question. I asked my biology prof about the question, and he said that "Roughly, 70% of the body is water; while the lungs are filled with the air, the body is slightly less dense than the surrounding water, which exerts a buoyant force on it. " is the true statement. Thank you for bringing it up, and I will personally make sure that the information is changed in the incorect article. --wpktsfs 19:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

My 2 cents: In my experience, my body is less dense than the water when my lungs are full of air. My body sinks when I empty my lungs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.15.9 (talk) 06:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recreational Swimming

Is this claim true "The most common purpose for swimming is recreation." If so it needs a citation. I worked at many pools for many years and the number of regular swimmers who show up for competitive training or exercise was far more prevelent then recreational swimmers. When you multiply this by all the pools in the country I believe it would outway even all the rec swimmers who play in natural water. To me this statement seems more like an assumption and should be removed.--Csfgdead 04:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Which swimming method?

The Technique section describes a change in swimmers' performance with regard to hip acceleration, but it does not mention which propulsion method(s) this applies to. The following paragraph also needs to be cleared up on what propulsion technique it is discussing. 194.144.27.252 08:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diversity section

Why is a section on "Diversity" included in this general swimming entry? The section is really about diversity in swimming in the USA, which probably belongs under the USA Swimming entry, no? -Hooperswim 15:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

There should certainly be a section in USA Swimming on "diversity," but that section should not be moved from here to there. "USA Swimming" is actually the name of an organization. In other words, the title, "USA Swimming," does not mean "swimming in the United States of America"; rather it references the organization, "USA Swimming," that regulates the sport of competitive swimming in the U.S. ask123 19:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate Entry Needed for Competitive Swimming

Wikipedia sorely needs a separate entry for competitive swimming. After all, it is a competitive sport unto itself -- something that extends way beyond the act of swimming. Lumping the sport with the activity is like having competitive athletics (track and field) lumped with the act of running. That would be silly, which is why there are two different articles. I would like to create this new article -- I have the experience to accurately write a first draft. I would like to solicit other editors to join the effort if they are interested.

Most importantly, I would like to discuss the idea of this separation with the editors of this article before proceeding. Please leave me a note here or on my user page regarding this.

Also, I moved the image of the breaststroker from the competitive swimming section to the recreational swimming section. The woman in the image is not competing (much less against anyone). Frankly, it's a joke to say that the image of the lady swimming breast-stroke by the "Competitive Swimming" section is a picture of a competitive swimmer.

Many thanks to all who respond to my above request. I would love to have help & support on this! Cheers, ask123 20:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Ocean swimming

I propose that Ocean swimming be merged into this article, on the grounds that it is a stub that should really belong as part of a larger article. If the section on ocean swimming were to grow to the point that it required a seperate article, then fair enough, but until then, it seems pointless to have a seperate stub that could be quite happy in this article.

Opinions? me_and 18:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I very much disagree on the grounds that ocean swimming is a sport unto itself. I also posted on this talk page a proposal for a separate "competitive swimming" article on the same grounds that I suggest leaving the ocean swimming article alone. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to working on it yet. But, back to the topic at hand, merging all of these water sports into this article is like having all "ball sports" in the ball games article. That is a bit absurd since each separate ball game is different. Obviously, Wikipedia needs serarate football, baseball, soccer, etc. sections.
You are right though that, at this moment, the article is a pithy stub. But I propose waiting to let other users fill it out. It is a sport unto itself just like road bicycle racing is a different sport from track cycling. (There is an article, bicycle racing, but that article links to separate, more fleshed out articles on road bicycle racing, cyclo-cross, mountain bike racing, track cycling, BMX racing and bike trials and cycle speedway.) If anything, the "ocean swimming" article should be merged with the "open water swimming article. As far as I can see, they both cover the same thing.
Or, an alternative might be to have one "competitive swimming" article that covers conventional competitive swimming in a pool (i.e. what you see in the summer olympics), as well as open-water competitive swimming (a.k.a. ocean swimming) and other competitive water racing sports. ask123 00:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Technique

"The muscles that pull the arm through the water are attached within one inch of the top of the arm. With a 21" arm, the lever ratio is 1:20, which means that a 100 lbs. of pull by the shoulder muscles produces only 5 lbs. of force at the hand." I have problems with this statement. It can be seen in the photograph of the freestyle swimmer that the attachment of the muscles extends to more than one inch from the top of the arm. Also, as the stroke is performed with the elbow bent, the effective lengh of the arm can be halved for the purpose of the calculation. I also have doubts about the effect of movement from the hips. While there may be some gain from the "corkscrew" effect, it seems to me that the main benefits are due to creating a narrower "bow section" and the ability to inhale without raising the head. But I am not an expert and I would like to hear the views of others..... Mikehimself 08:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC) I should also have said that the movement of the upper body brings the strong back muscles into play, instead of relying entirely on the pectorals. Mikehimself 19:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schoolslag in the Netherlands is not entirely the same as the breaststroke.

Quote from article: "In both the Netherlands and Belgium swimming lessons under school time (schoolzwemmen, school swimming) are supported by the government. Most schools provide swimming lessons. There is a long tradition of swimming lessons in the Netherlands, the Dutch translation for the breaststroke swimming style is even schoolslag (school style)."

This is not entirely correct. It is true that the Dutch people call the breasstroke the schoolslag (= schoolstroke, not schoolstyle!) but they actually learn a variation of the breaststroke. The emphasis with schoolswimming is not to teach children an excellent technique, the emphasis is to make sure that they won't drown. With schoolswimming we learn to put the heels of our legs to each other en than make a circle in stead of putting the feet outwards towards each other and the knees close towards each other. The reason is that it's easier for children to learn this and this way you get less stress on your knees. The movement of the arms is also slightly different. We also learn to keep our head over water during the 'gliding' instead of gliding with our body totally immersed in the water. Many dutch people are not aware that they have learned the breasstroke in the wrong way. I discovered this when I followed a course to become a lifeguard. I talked about this with people who gave swimming lessons and they confirmed it, so I am certain about this.

The translation of schoolslag is incorrect, it is not school style but schoolstroke.

I will make a slight change in this text. 193.190.253.148 00:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "Technique" section - please review!

I have just re-added the "Technique" section which was deleted way back on 8th January by a vandal, a day after the "water percentage" sentence was repeatedly changed (from 70% to 10%, then up to 80%). I haven't read the section in its entirity, I just copypasted it from the revision before the vandal's edit, then changed 80% to 70%, and since the removal of the section, the article "Ability to swim" was merged here, so it's possible that I put it back in the wrong place. Please review. Thanks! --NetRolller 3D 18:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non Equatic Animals

This section is a complete mess and looks like it has been vandalised. I would edit it but I do not have the appropriate knowledge. However, I do know that trout are fishes and that a) they are an aquatic animal and b) they can swim. This section appears to negate this fact. Frogs are not fishes either 81.153.223.191 (talk) 21:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean fish, seeing that fishes is not a real word. There are also many other animals that swim, like sharks, whales, and dolphins.Chimchar monferno (talk) 02:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Different Strokes

1. Butterfly 2.Backstroke 3. Breaststroke 4. Freestyle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.100.105 (talk) 22:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)