Talk:Sweeney Todd

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Contents 1 Date of "A String of Pearls" 2 Unrelated? 3 St Dunstan's Church 4 Did Sweeney Exist? 5 Cockney Rhyming Slang 6 18th/19th century 7 TS Eliot -- "Sweeney among the nightingales" 8 Separate page for musical? 9 outside the Bible 10 Comment by 192.102.112.18 (moved from article) 11 Kids in what Movie doing Sweeney Todd musical? 12 A 17th century precursor of Sweeney Todd 13 Monty Python's Barber? 14 Johnny Depp Movie 15 "Weapon of choice?" 16 Dan and Jen? 17 "The Sexiest Man Alive" 18 NPOV 19 Haining 20 MP 21 Sweeney Todd Did Exist 22 Bias 23 Backstory of Benjamin Barker

[edit] Date of "A String of Pearls"

There's a reference on p. 410 of The Drama of Yesterday and To-day (Clement Scott, 1899) to the "grim drama by George Didbin Pitt, first performed at the Britannia, Hoxton, in 1842, and called 'Sweeney Todd, the Barber of Fleet Street; or, The String of Pearls'." This is five years earlier than the article's date of adaptation/performance at the Britannia, for those interested in tracing what (or whom) it may have influenced in its day. It was apparently "popular at the East-End theatres" including the Britannia, where it was reportedly (p. 508, Notes and Queries ninth series June 29 1901) played "as recently as 1878."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan Allosso (talk • contribs) 02:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unrelated?

Just chopped out this from the adaptions section:

• In Herman Melville's 1855 Benito Cereno, a slave shaves his Captain's beard and deliberately cuts him with the razor to keep him in place because there is a mutiny planned and a guest on the ship mustn't know what is going on.

I fail to see what this has to do with Sweeney Todd, I'm afraid. No barber, no cannibalism. GM Pink Elephant —Preceding comment was added at 20:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] St Dunstan's Church

Does anyone know which St Dunstan's church was involved?Harry Potter 23:24, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

St Dunstan's in the West is one mentioned in various London tourist walking tours - see here: [1]Ray3055 (talk) 15:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did Sweeney Exist?

I am making major revisions to reflect the fact that Sweeney Todd was a fictional character. Arieh 14JUL2004

I'm really sorry that the link did not work, I fixed it. Mathshop2 02:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I can not believe that someone undid all the changes I made. That is a sign of ignorance. Even though I personaly believe he did exist, I made sure to include both sides and stressed the controvercy. I changed my mind about reverting it. I don't care if the article gets locked, I've looked at the history and it's been reverted back too many times. But, I will say it is people like you that make it immpossible for wikipedia to be a reputable source because you work so hard to represent your personal opionions as facts. Shame on you. Mathshop2 02:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Mathshop2 - the reasons I reverted it are twofold. (a), to head a section "The Real Sweeney Todd" seems to give over-strong support to the hypothesis of existence. (b), if you read discussion elsewhere on this page, there seems to be considerable doubt cast on the work of Peter Haining, and no real repudiation of those doubts. (As far as I can see, Haining is the main or only source for the crimelibrary.com article, so they don't really support one another.) For what it's worth, I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Sweeney's existence and would be happy to see the article explain document-based evidence for the theory. Barnabypage 12:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It is slanted to state that Todd did not exist as a fact. There is dissagrement about this so it is only ethical to present both sides of the story. I am going to go ahead and make a few minnor changes to the article to reinforce the dissagreement and show both sides. Mathshop2 18:48, 19 August 2007 I corrected the point of view and added some text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mathshop2 (talk • contribs) 20:21:57, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

• Apparently, Sweeny Todd was NOT a fictional character. He was a real barber, who really had a shop on Fleet Street, and really killed upwards of a hundred people, then really baked them into meat pies. Beyond that, most of the fiction written about him takes many liberties about his personality, motives, and specifics of the crime, but the legend of Sweeny Todd is true. Also see "Sweeney Todd: The Real Story of the Demon Barber of Fleet Street" by Peter Haining (ISBN 1861055870)--TexasDex 03:57, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

• • FWIW, the above link to crimelibrary.com now redirects to http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html --Bobbozzo (talk) 08:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Peter Haining's claims (and those of the rather piss poor researchers who read his book and treated it as gospel without doing any true research of their own) are considerable laughable by all legitimate historians. Hainingclaims to have found the guy in the Newgate Calendar as a real person, but these documents exist and have been checked and absolutely do not contain anything which would show that this was ever a real person. We owe it to ourselves to be better than that. DreamGuy 11:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

CourtTV's Online CrimeLibrary has enentire section on the factual man, Sweeny Todd

There are valid arguments on both sides of this issue. To give just two: in support of his merely being a legend is the difficulty researchers have had in pinning down (and agreeing on) just who Sweeney was, while in support of there having been a real person is the peculiar insistance Sweeney has for invariably haunting Fleet Street - urban legends almost always occur "in these very woods" or "just down the road," not five time zones away. I have changed the article to reflect what I think we can all agree on, which is that Todd's actual existance is debated. --Badger151 06:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not, and your original research and false claims about urban legends are not relevant here. When fiction places a fictinal character at a specific location, and it even becomes art of his known name "the demon of Fleet Street" OF COURSE it doesn't get put to other locals as easily... The WP:NPOV and WP:RS policies are very clear on this issue: we go by what the experts say and do not give WP:UNDUE weight to what some small fringe group with less academic credential has to say, and we absolutely do not change an article based upon the wild speculation of members of the public changing the article directly. DreamGuy 14:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that reference 3 is really a definitive yes or no on existence of Todd as the person doing the research is a just a fiction writer himself. What makes his claim more valid than another fiction writer? Reference 4 only says “What Mr. Haining presents as truth MAY be the colourful [sic] imaginings of the day's tabloids” and then does not prove or disprove anything. It only says that Todd may not have existed, not that he does not. Reference 5 says “There are no clear answers.” So if the article is going to say that he does not exist when it just is not clear if he did or did not exist … well at the very least better references are needed.--Murphoid (talk) 00:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In London a few years ago, I had afternoon tea at the Old Bank of England on Fleet Street. They had a note in their menu saying that the tunnels under the building were used by Sweeney Todd himself. I don't know how relevant this is except to show that big, reputable organizations are either taken in by Sweeney-madness or capitalizing on it. At the time I thought they were entirely sincere, but it's been a few years since I was there. Rkaufman13 (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Can one of the Todd does not exist crowd make a counter argument, or I will make slight changes to reflect that his existence is highly suspect instead of definately didn't exist.--Murphoid (talk) 22:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not possible to prove a negative. All of the secondary sources that have been presented as evidence that he did exist do not have any support except each other. There are no primary sources (contemporary newspaper, court records, etc) that indicate that he existed at all... and if true, a story like this one should have a significant number of contemporary primary sources available. -- Upholder (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I accept fully that you can't prove a negative. I still feel that if Todd does not exist the current references are weak and there must be some better ones out there. None of the references come from a viewpoint that Todd does not exist. They all come from the viewpoint that he may not have existed. I would like to see a reference from a historian who is confident that he did not exist. Common beleif indeed does not constitute proof, but you have to admit that the common understanding is that Todd existed, so his non existence must be firmly established. Modern historians doubt Robin Hood existed, though there is older research that says he does. That wikipedia article does a better job of addressing the arguments for or against and do say that a disagreement exists. I think the same is needed here.--Murphoid (talk) 23:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

To firmly establish that he did not exist would be to prove a negative... which brings me back to my original comment. -- Upholder (talk) 20:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Instead of mearly deleting edits and clips of discussion, a reasonable compromise is to put in the acticle that his existance is a debateable topic, as it clearly is. After all, this article is suposed to be the truth and this would be the truth. Instead of foolishly arguing back and forth, a compromise is the civilized way of ending this petty bickering - and makes the article more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.141.83.177 (talk) 17:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

All of the evidence presented to date has been thoroughly debunked. Claiming that Sweeney Todd existed based on those sources is akin to claiming that Hansel and Grettle existed due to the published works of the Brothers Grimm. At this point in time, there is no serious debate on the matter. -- Upholder (talk) 18:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ - the amount of documentation on either side of this, and the attention tis article has gotten certainly proves that there is a serious debate on this topic. Each side is as strong as the other in thier opinions on it. There is no proof to conclusively say that he does NOT exist, thusly - there is DOUBT, and the article should reflect that. We cant go around saying conclusively one way or the other, because no one really knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.141.83.177 (talk) 23:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not possible to prove a negative. Therefore, there cannot be proof that something does NOT exist. If you want to say that he did exist, the burden of proof is on you to find a reliable source that shows that he did. The Peter Haining material has been shown to be insufficient as the sources that he cites to support his claims do not have any of the evidence he claims and therefore do not qualify as a reliable source. -- Upholder (talk) 05:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that there is a debate here, proves that its debatable. You can prove very easily that its not true by finding real documentation stating that, or proving the evidence wrong - which you have failed to do besides stating your own bias. The simple fact of the matter is that your opinion on the credibility of one of the sources is a moot point - you have to prove that its not credible and thats your burden. As it is, this is in debate because no information has proven 100% on either position. as far as I'm concerned your argument is less credible because you are governing based on your own opinion, and not the fairness or neutrality the article should have. Linking to a wikipedia article, after you've killed the credibility of this one doesn't help your statement, and plays up as a convenient excuse to not back up your side of it. History has shown us that almost all fiction is based in fact. Most of the fictional killer characters in tv/movies are based on one or more serial killer. Sweeney Todd is no different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.82.158.21 (talk) 07:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The only evidence provided in the article that Sweeney Todd existed is all based on Peter Haining's works, which has three properly cited reliable sources showing that his work is sub-par and not verifiable back to its claimed sources (see footnotes 3, 4 and 5 in the article). I reiterate, if you wish to include the claim that he existed, the burden of proof is on you to find reliable sources that show he did: Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven. (from Burden of proof#Science and other uses). Furthermore, the standard for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifibility and all claims that do not live up to that standard must be deleted by policy, which is what has happened here. -- Upholder (talk) 10:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Again I say, The references DO NOT AFFIRM that Todd did not exist. None of the references say that Todd did not exist. The references do not even claim that Todd did not exist. You are holding the article hostage by claiming the reference say things that they simply DO NOT say. Reference 3 has research being done by a fiction writer. Reference 4 only says that Todd may not have existed. Reference 5 says “There are no clear answers.” If there is one artcle you can point to written by a historian who in any way claims that Todd did not exist than I will withdraw my objection completely.--Murphoid (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The references do not confirm that Todd did not exist because it is not possible by the rules of logic to prove a negative. Also, if you check the history for the article, you'll find that many editors have reverted the assertion that Todd existed and that I am by no means "holding the article hostage". I'm merely the only one pointing out the logical fallacy of demanding proof that is cannot exist. I say one more time: evidence that he existed can be found if he did exist. There cannot be proof that he did not exist regardless of if he did or not. Therefore the burden is to find evidence that he did exist if you wish to claim that he did. -- Upholder (talk) 21:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Haining claims that Todd was tried at the Old Bailey and hung outside Newgate Prison on January 25th, 1802. At that time, all death sentences had to be carried out within a limited time after the sentence was handed down. There are extensive records for both the Old Bailey (killings between 1800 and 1805) and Newgate Prison (all 1,120 men and 49 women executed between 1783 and 1902[2]. There is no Barker, Todd, Lovett, or any variation thereof listed in either set of records. -- Upholder (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You keep talking about proving a negative when I am not asking anyone to do that. The references used in the article are not saying what the article says. That is what I have a problem with.--Murphoid (talk) 17:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Every claim that Todd did exist is based at one level or another on Peter Haining's research. The primary sources that Haining cites do not support his assertions (as the links provided in my comment above show). The references in the article show that Peter Haining's research is faulty by going back and looking at the primary sources and noting that they do not support his claims. That is why they were cited in the article. However, it is not possible by the rules of logic to do more and prove that he did not exist... which is why I keep talking about proving a negative. However, we can (and do) say that there is no evidence beyond Haining's debunked research that claims he did exist. -- Upholder (talk) 19:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This is as close as I am going to get to what I want, so I will learn to live with it. Thanks for the discussion my friend the upholder. --Murphoid (talk) 22:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

i think he did exist as there are records of a sweeney todd so he must exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.96.230 (talk • contribs) 15:19, January 11, 2008

What are these records? (The original cast recording is not the type of record we want.)--Murphoid (talk) 22:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Fir what it's worth, I popped over to find the facts of the actual original case behind the stories. INstead, I foudn this debate, which is high on contention and low on content. However, A look at the free 1881 UK Censu available at Familysearch.org does show a 'Sweeny Todd' as a 36 year old barber, and here's the link [3]. I offer this only as proof that there's SOMEONE of that name out there. I could find the scanned sheet tomorrow, but I'm not sure if a transcription of the 1881 UK census is a solid enough source. It's in the public record, and available via free sources in transcription, and the image by subscription... not sure on that. 04:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThuranX (talk • contribs) It's an amusing coincidence if there was a real barber called Sweeny Todd in the 1881 Census (unless the Census entry was either (a) a joke or (b) someone who had the misfortune to be named Sweeny after the fictional character), but as he was born in 1845 and still alive in 1881 he can hardly have been a criminal active around 1800 and then hanged.217.38.127.254 (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There are no contemporary references proving that Sweeney Todd did NOT exist because court reporters, journalists, and official records wouldn't have written "oh, by the way, Sweeney Todd doesn't exist." The New York Times doesn't mention that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist either. Someone hanged at Newgate on January 25th, 1802 would have been tried the week before, so searching the court and prison records for his name would be easy. 207.104.229.246 (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

As I write this (and there has been nearly 20 edits today alone) the article seems fairly balanced. It seems to be clear in that the balance of probability (or evidence if you prefer) is that there was no Sweeny Todd, but this can't be proved conclusively. It also says that even if there wasn't an exact match, someone, even abroad, may have been the real life inspiration of the legend. That seems OK to me. Lets be blunt - does it really matter that much about a piece of fictional entertainment ?? The Yeti (talk) 00:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

1169 executions in 119 years seems a little low for a society that executed people for a wide variety of crimes (including theft)and carried out the executions shortly after sentencing. The calenders were collected from a wide variety of sources at different times. Can we be sure they are comprehensive? aegilthe ugly

As far as I can see there is no evidence (apart from a book by Peter Haining which is unreliable in its use of sources) that Sweeney Todd has any basis in fact. If that is the case, what's all the fuss about? And if that is not the case, where is the solid, verifiable evidence? I haven't seen any in the above very protracted discussion. Cooke (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The blogger Kalebeul showed [4] several years ago that the Sweeney Todd story dates back at least to seventeenth century Calais, so I don't know what everyone is getting so worked up about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.88.64.80 (talk) 10:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cockney Rhyming Slang

The Sweeney became part of cockney rhyming slang to refer to the police flying squad (Sweeney Todd - Flying Squad). A popular police series named The Sweeney about the Flying Squad was broadcast between 1975 - 1978 on British TV. Zik-Zak 19:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 18th/19th century

Thank you for the correction (not yet permanently linkable) of my typo, in the immediately following edit, by User:Jrbray. I recall noticing someone's apparent assertion that still earlier sources had been folded in, but in fact i must have retyped that digit in the course of the markup i added. No one else should waste time checking (for fear of an unnamed source) when that date got added to the article! --Jerzy(t) 03:45, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)

---

[edit] TS Eliot -- "Sweeney among the nightingales"

Hello. I remember that TS Eliot wrote a poem called "Sweeney among the nightingales". Was that a reference to the Sweeney Todd of the 19th c ? On rereading it (e.g., [5]) I don't see a clear link but maybe someone can definitely say there is or there isn't. Something to think about perhaps. Regards & happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 08:37, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sweeney was a stock figure in several of Eliot's poems ("Sweeney Erect", "Sweeney Agonistes", etc. I think he may have even made it into a draft of "The Waste Land") and seems mainly to be a means of mocking the Irish as grossly physical and brutish. Some critics think Eliot "borrowed" him from the Buile Suibhne(The Madness of Sweeney) which was first published in English during Eliot's lifetime. But he doesn't seem to have much to do directly with Sweeney Todd, unless both can be traced to the Madness of Sweeney. - Nunh-huh 04:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Separate page for musical?

I, for one, think that the Sondheim show deserves its own page, on which far more that is presented here can be put forth - such as musical and dramatic analysis, etc...

Have gone ahead with it. New page here. IvanP 19:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] outside the Bible

The edit summarized

(deleted "outside the Bible" because cannibalism doesn't appear in the Bible)

is a pretty good edit with a lousy summary, just for the record: The PoV that the Bible means what says remains influential, so construing cannibalism as not "appear[ing]" in it is highly PoV since it says "Take, eat; this is my body" at Matt 26:26, RSV. (But indeed that doesn't seem to be about eating guests.)
--Jerzy•t 15:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No cannibalism in the Bible? http://www.rationalchristianity.net/cannibal.html 68.219.59.81 (talk) 13:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment by 192.102.112.18 (moved from article)

<snip>
Here's the problem with Wikipedia and random people posting 'knowledge' as fact. Some urban legends have truth to them, albeit stories tend to get embellished as they are put upon the stage. There was a man named Sweeney Todd, who worked as a barber on Fleet Street, who did use a trap door and a straight razor to off his customers, and whose victims did sometimes end up in meat pies. Extensive research by British author Peter Haining has shown supporting evidence for this without a doubt. [Please see link[6]] . And think twice before citing anything from Wikipedia. And CITING SOURCES BACK TO WIKIPEDIA IS LAME.
</snip>
MightyWarrior 23:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kids in what Movie doing Sweeney Todd musical?

I recently saw a movie where a couple of kids, against the wishes of their parents or someone, performed Sweeney Todd:the Musical in front of their class, I think. Can someone remind me what this movie was? Pretty well known cast from what I can recall. I just cant remember who.

Might be Jersey Girl (2004 film) in which "God That's Good" is rehearsed on and off throughout the film and performed near its completion. And: Don't forget to sign your posts! -- RayBirks 14:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Just FYI, this bit of trivia is already noted at Sweeney Todd (musical) in the Performance History section. -- RayBirks 14:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Much appreciated RayBirks. I didn't think to look at the "musical" portion of the Sweeney Todd entry.

[edit] A 17th century precursor of Sweeney Todd

This whole entry needs rewriting to accommodate the discovery by the blogger Kalebeul of a 17th century precursor of Sweeney Todd. In particular the description around 1691 of a demon barber in Calais is clear evidence that Peter Haining's book is nonsense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.34.170.47 (talk) 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Monty Python's Barber?

Was this the basis for the Bloody Barber lead in to Monty Python's Lumber Jack song in Flying Circus? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maschwab (talk • contribs) 06:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Kinda seems like it, doesn't it? --64.131.32.221 22:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Johnny Depp Movie

I saw a poster for a Johnny Depp movie called Sweeny Todd —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.37.61.248 (talk) 18:44, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's true. It comes out December 21, 2007 in the U.S., in case you didn't know. I'm majorly obsessed with this movie!NEHEHEHE!!!

• Lover of the sand (talk) 20:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)*

[edit] "Weapon of choice?"

In the intro to this article it says that Sweeney's "weapon of choice was the straight razor." But, up until the Sondheim musical, wasn't Todd far more identifiable by his gimmicked barber's chair? In fact, quite a lot of the original source material doesn't have him cutting throats at all- rather, he tips the victims backwards so that their heads are bashed on the ground below. ChrisStansfield ^Contribs 18:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dan and Jen?

What is this reference to? Has the page been defaced? There are two references to some Dan and Jen (in the beginning) and near the end that are not cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.64.150 (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Dan and Jen is an adaptation which is being performed around colleges in the UK, (Dan plays the part of Sweeny Todd while Jen is Ms.Lovett). It has reacently been performed at Esher College, Hinchley Wood Sixth Form and Richmond College. However finding sources to reference is dificult, may I source the college or the college prospectus for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.185.66 (talk) 20:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "The Sexiest Man Alive"

I just happened upon this article and read the following disgrace among the 'Adaptations' section :

"Tim Burton has directed a film adaptation of Sondheim's musical. It stars The Sexiest Man Alive as Sweeney Todd..."

Now "The Sexiest Man Alive" is a link to a page about the magazine 'People'. So upon following this link to find out who stars as Sweeney Todd, I am met with a page about a magazine which hosts a yearly vote about the sexiest man alive. But the current 'sexiest man' (Matt Damon) does not star as Sweeney Todd. So who is it? The list is over twenty names long! And why on Earth in an encyclopedia am I not given the answer to this, but instead sent to a ridiculously irrelevant article about a magazine?! So I hope no one minds that, after putting in the necessary research, I have edited the page to say plainly that it is in fact Johnny Depp who stars in this role. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevoreilly (talk • contribs) 21:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The new first paragraph under Early History contradicts other information in this article. Also this article makes no mention of the article that is often quoted in the Daily Courant and no mention of sources (Court records) of the other 'facts' mentioned in the first paragraph. Unfortunately various London Tourist tours quote as fact many things which are not verifiable or have been proved incorrect, but I think they should at least be mentioned in this article as existing viewpoints/unveriable 'facts' or disproven 'facts'/fiction - with of course verifiable reliable references, otherwise it looks as if this page just offers a single viewpoint. Most people reading this article will not bother to read the references I know, but as it stands unless they do they will get a very confusing idea of what is fiction and what is verifiable fact. (As a Londoner I know that many tourists visiting Baker street are convinced they have seen the genuine office of Sherlock Holmes...) Ray3055 (talk) 11:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Haining

Why is such prominence given to Haining's theory that Todd was not a fictional character? I'm not saying that the article oughtn't to mention it at all, as there are independent sources which cover his maverick position; but having it in the leading paragraph and the overall level of discussion give undue weight on what is, after all, a minority opinion from a man who had no academic credentials. --Diagonal P. (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it has something to do with the last sentence in the lead paragraph though I have no idea what it may mean since it's cut off for some reason. Sake neko (talk) 10:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MP

Sweeney Todd - schweine Tot

Is the name Sweeney Todd a play on the German "schweine Tot". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.7.5.78 (talk) 08:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sweeney Todd Did Exist

I Don't Know Much But It's Been Found That There Was A Barber That Murder People With A RAzor And Use A Mechanical Chair And Most Of Them Ended Up In Mrs Lovett's Pies. It's Also An Attraction In The London Dugeons So It Must Be True Only True Things Are Put In There
AGREED! Historians debate on if Sweeney was real or not! We do know there was a church seperating the two shops,and dead bodies where found beneath both the church and Mr.Todd's supposed address. I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS WIKI PAGE BUT READ ALL THE FACTS!!! He may not be fictious but he may be... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-509190/Revealed-The-truth-REAL-Sweeney-Todd.html

[edit] Bias

The biography about the real Sweeney Todd seems maybe biased by the movie adaptation; at the very least, Mr. Todd should be referred to as such, and not as Mr. 'T' as in the movie. A real biography should be objectively removed from any fiction based on the person. Umma Kynes 08:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC) AGREED! Historians debate on if Sweeney was real or not! We do know there was a church seperating the two shops,and dead bodies where found beneath both the church and Mr.Todd's supposed address. I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS WIKI PAGE BUT READ ALL THE FACTS!!! He may not be fictious but he may be... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-509190/Revealed-The-truth-REAL-Sweeney-Todd.html

[edit] Backstory of Benjamin Barker

We all know that Benjamin Barker/Sweeney Todd was "shipped off to Australia" under false charges. Just to get specific, I was wondering if anyone knew under WHICH charges he was sent? As in: what was the crime he was supposedly charged for? It would be a good idea to incorporate into the article if anyone knew...with a source, that is. BlackPearl14^{Pirate Lord-ess} 20:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)