Talk:Swansea

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  • Archive 1: Feb 2002 to February 2006. Contents: figures and sources for Welsh language numbers and schools; lots of things to do--largely done now; counties debate; discussion on Swansea places, regions, and wards and which to use for articles; this page wants archiving; Beyond TV.


Contents

[edit] Swansea Valley

Apologies if this has been covered in the etensive archived material , but.... the history and significance of the Swansea Valley and its industrialsation seem to be barely touched upon. I would have thought that it would have justified an article in its own right which would have included references to the growth of the Nickel industry, the Siemens factory, Swansea porcelain, the great copper smelters, the links back to Parys Mountain etc. It would probably include discussion of the immense impact across the world of this industrialsation and the impact of the envirnment of Swansea (which perisists to this day). If this article exists, many apologies , but it didn't appear when I searched ! Velela 15:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I started a History of Swansea article a year ago, got some facts down, and then forgot about it. It has quite a bit about the industrialisation, and consequently has to touch on the river and the Lower Swansea Valley. I must go back to it and finish it. I have quite a hit list of "things that are not clear" -- I really could do with scanning some old maps in, for example -- and I must get the references into a proper format. Also, I bought the book Copperopolis since then, which is huge and looks useful. I think today I shall try to update the references.
But I definitely agree that we need a Swansea Valley article. We could do with quite a lot of valleys articles. I wondered whether it could be built around the River Tawe article, but perhaps it should be separate. That way we can include all sorts. There's a couple of people who have listed themselves on WP:WWNB who would probably be interested in such an article, so you might want to mention it there.
Telsa (talk) 10:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traws-Cambria source

User:Velela asked for a cite for the comment "Swansea is also on the TrawsCambria route which connects the north and south of the country together via Aberystwyth, a bus so well-known in Wales that songs have been written about it[citation needed]."

I assume it's the remark about the songs you want a cite for, rather than the bus route :) Just for the record, the song I was thinking of was Steve Eaves' song, "Traws Cambria". It's actually about a person, not about the bus: the point was that the song just mentions "she's travelling on the Traws Cambria" without explaining "so it's the whole length of Wales" or anything: it's just expected that you'll know that. Having explained that, I think it can probably go away from this article. It's not relevant to Swansea. There is a TrawsCambria article now, so if anyone wants to resurrect it, that's where it could go.

Telsa (talk) 07:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It was exactly that. I should have posted an explanation but I was submerging trying to put together relevant stuff for the Lower Swansea valley artcle, without success as it happens ! Velela 08:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More pictures please!!

I've added a few from my old collection of snapshots. Admittedly, they are not the best quality. There must be loads of great photographers in Swansea. A lot of Swansea articles need pictures to liven them up. Give us your pics!!! (Sloman 22:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Station Names

Swansea railway station is known as High street station and is called as such even on the National Rail Enquiries site: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/SWA.html

The main bus station in Swansea is more often referred to as the Quadrant Bus station than Swansea bus station. See http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/wales/swwales/timetables/timetable.php?day=1&source_id=2&service=66&routeid=853877&operator=24&source=sp (Sloman 14:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

But there's only one bus station in the town. Why confuse people?

Actually, is there only one? Deb 20:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a few in the county, there's the Quadrant bus station in the city centre, one in Gorseinon, one in Pontarddulais and a small one in Mumbles. Not all bus services in Swansea call at the Quadrant bus station. For example, park and ride services from Fabian way Park and ride facility call at the bus station outside St Mary's Church. And a number of services operated by minor bus companies only stop at the Kingsway. (WelshBloke 12:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC))
In that case, I'd say it's worth mentioning the Quadrant by name. Deb 12:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to learn the difference between a bus station and a bus stop

But that is the problem, what is the difference? Seddon69 22:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General and Physical Geography

Could someone add a paragraph about the physical and general geography of Swansea to this article? Please reply.. Cepb 13:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Swansea#Geography ? Telsa (talk) 13:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of argument about city size. Let the LSE resolve it: "Cities outside the major conurbations are described in the classification we use as non-metropolitan. There are 14 large non-metropolitan cities, places such as Edinburgh, Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol and Nottingham, with populations of between about 150,000 and 450,000. These are typically large industrial centres or ports. We also have 17 ‘small non-metropolitan cities’, with populations between 80,000 and 180,000, which are either smaller industrial centres (such as Middlesbrough), educational centres (like Oxford and Durham), and/ or the major urban settlements serving largely rural hinterlands (such as Worcester)." Pondle 18:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What's the source of this? It seems odd how one can compare the likes of Edinburgh and Cardiff to Swansea 217.46.243.122 14:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"The Growth and Decline of Cities and Regions". Publication from CASE at the LSE http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cbcb/census1.pdf Why on Earth is it odd to compare Swansea with Cardiff and Edinburgh? They all have populations in the 150,000 - 450,000 range. Neither Cardiff nor Edinburgh is particularly 'large'.Pondle 19:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medium or small

I have changed the term for describing Swansea from small to medium sized because I believe it is more accurate description of a European city with over 200,000 people (though if located in Asia, it would definitely be categorized as small). A small city, at least to me, is a place with a few shopping streets, like Bangor, and certainly no larger than urban areas such Bath, Chester or York. Swansea, however, has a population and urban sprawl compatible to other cities that I would describe as medium sized, such as Southampton, Plymouth or Aberdeen. Personally, I believe that describing the city as small is incorrect and creates a wrong impression for first time visitors. However, if the majority of contributors believe that small is a more accurate description of Swansea, then so be it. I am happy to follow the consensus, but at the moment it seems to be just one persons opinion, and so I am continuing to revert. Thanks for your input. Anon

The use of terms like "small" and "medium-sized", in this context, are rather subjective. I would rather we said that it is a city of (whatever) population, and leave it at that. Deb 11:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless there is an official definition of small and medium cities that can be backed up with a reference it can go. We have the population and we have the council area's rank compared to other Welsh councils. The article really needs a demographics section, and that should include a sentence explaining where it comes in the list of Welsh and British cities by population. Population stats, coupled with comparisons to other Welsh and British cities will give the reader a much better idea of the size than an ambiguous and subjective term like "medium sized". Joe D (t) 12:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Joe and Deb for your feedback. I agree that the terms "small" and "medium sized" are subjective, and as the article already includes information about the city's population in the side bar and population ranking for the UK in the Geography section, I believe that they can be omitted. I support Deb's solution that we just refer to Swansea as a city and "leave it at that". Anon

[edit] One of the largest Saturday local football leagues in the country?

One of the only mentions I could find on the web was on a fan site: http://www.scfc.co.uk/natter2608.html, could do with a more respected third party reference for this one, if it's true 81.103.161.25 17:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio, but which way round?

A lot of very promotional material was added by User:Swan07, who has not edited much since. Specifically, this diff added a lot under the categories of "activities" and "beaches". I was surprised to see exactly the same material on Morgan's Hotel website and I suspect that it came from there originally. To complicate matters, there is separate content on that Morgans webpage which looks as though it came from Wikipedia (the bits above that with the Wikipedia reference numbers still intact). I suppose they might have borrowed lots of Wikipedia content after Swan07 added this stuff about "up there with the best" and "stunning Gower landmark". It's all a bit confusing. But the promo blurb from User:Swan07 is very consistent within itself and noticeably different from the tone of the rest of the Swansea article. I think it might be worth finding it and pulling it out unless User:Swan07 can let us know where it came from and under what licence. Only I am in a hurry and not doing it right now :) I'm mostly leaving this comment here because there has been a bit of editing of that content for tone, and I don't want someone to go through it all when I am only going to delete it anyway! - unless anyone has other suggestions? Telsa (talk) 13:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statistical comparisons with Cardiff

What purpose do these serve? This article is not an appropriate venue to discuss the relative demographics of the two places. 90.203.45.168 (talk) 20:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it gives the reader an idea of the size of the area, comparing with the nation's capital. Haven't you seen other city/town article comparing population/area with another's? Welshleprechaun (talk) 20:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any other examples which compare the "size" of a city with an arbitrary other location. Why is the specific comparison to Cardiff significant? 90.203.45.168 (talk) 20:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with comparisons, as long as they are accurate, consistent and not too obtrusive. I think that if we use comparative material here, we ought to adopt the same approach in discussions of Newport relative to Cardiff, or Cardiff relative to Bristol, London or Edinburgh as appropriate. If this becomes too burdensome, perhaps we ought to start a new article on "Urban Areas in Wales" or something, which could be a more natural home for this type of material. Pondle (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI, statistical comparison pages for UAs already exist. See List of Welsh principal areas by population and List of Welsh principal areas by area. 195.27.12.230 (talk) 08:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The point of the comparison with Cardiff was obviously that they are the two largest cities in Wales, and one is twice the size of the other. This won't apply in the case of most other towns/cities. Deb (talk) 12:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It isn't that simple, because depending on the definition of 'Swansea' or 'Cardiff' that you use, the population of the former as a percentage of the latter is either 58%, 82.5% [1], 73% [2], or 71.5%[[3]]. Besides, a comparison here creates a precedent for comparing the two largest population centres in any given county, state, region or country. You could extend the principle and compare the sizes of the capitals of UK nations, EU member states, US states, etc etc etc.Pondle (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Immigration

I don't think its worth mentioning comparisons other cities here. We can say on their pages how much immigration they did or didn't receive - if someone can find a source.Pondle (talk) 11:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Further to why I think it's inappropriate to mention comparisons of immigration history in the lead section: 1. It doesn't fit the guidance for the lead section according to the UK geography wikiproject - particularly with respect to comparisons. 2. It gives undue weight to a particular aspect of a highly-specific subject: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."Pondle (talk) 12:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio from September

It appears to have been pointed out but then left unfixed before, however I think that User:Swan07's contributions from September are a copyvio, not from the Morgans hotel website but from http://www.visitswanseabay.com. Just compare the beaches section to http://www.visitswanseabay.com/index.cfm?articleid=13943 and it seems pretty cut and dry. I'm not sure what should be done about it at this point, however, since some of the sections involved have been edited and tidied up since. MorganaFiolett (talk) 15:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] #Redirect Template:Infobox Settlement

shouldnt this have the better Infobox:Settleent rather than the boring one.

[edit] Local media

Can editors comment on whether or not this is relevant to Local Media: Digital radio is also broadcast via the Astra Satellite3 and terrestial freeview Radio Wales and others can be received this way. Welshleprechaun (talk) 01:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds more like a national issue to me; one for Media in Wales perhaps? Pondle (talk) 13:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with Pondle, except in this case Radio Wales often broadcasts from it's studio in Swansea via the Astra satellite to the World. I believe it is therefore relevant to a, previously established, Local media section on Swansea. Canol (talk) 08:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What studio in Swansea? Welshleprechaun (talk) 14:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Swansea Broadcasting House, 32 Alexandra Road, Swansea, SA1 5DT (BBC Regional studio) [[4]] Canol (talk) 16:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tallest building

I appreciate that the Marina Tower is unlikely to remain the tallest building in Wales forever, but at this stage the building that will surpass it, Bay Pointe, is simply a proposal with planning consent - not an actual structure under construction. Since many projects approved by planners are never actually built, and the estimated completion date for Bay Pointe is 2014, devoting space to this scheme in the Swansea article is both premature and irrelevant. When (if) the Cardiff Bay scheme actually begins construction we can change the Marina Tower reference to "second tallest building in Wales" or whatever. Pondle (talk) 11:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I Agree with Pondle but at this point in time (Spring 2008) Marina Point is not complete and has not reached the height of the current tallest building (ie The Capital Tower, Cardiff). So Pondle, you might be premature as well. Canol (talk) 08:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe I guess! But I struggle to think of a comparable recent project that has been abandoned halfway through construction.Pondle (talk) 21:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of this article

There seems to be some confusion within this article and other related articles about its scope. My feeling is that it should be limited to information about the city as per Swansea (disambiguation) and that the county and administrative content moved to City and County of Swansea. Comments? Derek Andrews (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There's relatively little information about local government in this article, so I don't really think there's much duplication with City and County of Swansea.Pondle (talk) 19:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the User meant the Swansea county ie. Gower against the actual city. Maybe split into two becuase it is a bit confusing with the county being so big compared to the city as opposed to other city-counties like Cardiff and Newport which effectively contain just the city Welshleprechaun (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I take the point, but the I can foresee endless, tedious arguments about whether places such as Bishopston should be discussed as part of the Swansea subheading or the Gower subheading. Pondle (talk) 20:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Bishopston, Swansea already has it's own article. I think the city of Swansea deserves its own article. Derek Andrews (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that since 1974 the Swansea and Gower have been merged (see Swansea (district)). In the time since then, the built-up area of Swansea has spread; there's no clear distinction between the 'city proper' and areas 'outside' the city, but within the 'county' (see the ONS urban area map here [5]) Pondle (talk) 21:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well there must be a distinction, otherwise how would the census come up with 169,000 people living in Swansea city and the 55,000 or so living in the county but outside the city. Welshleprechaun (talk) 21:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, see City status in the United Kingdom. Under UK law, city status is granted to the county of Swansea, whose boundaries are well defined. If you are going to attempt to define the city of Swansea within the county, this will be open to endless POV arguments. Also note that the "City and County of Swansea" article is about the council that governs the Swansea unitary authority area. I've moved it to City and County of Swansea council to prevent any confusion in the future. Sloman (talk) 21:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

In response to Welshleprechaun, there's no distinction between Swansea 'city proper' and the 'rest of the county' in any legal or administrative sense. The ONS-defined urban areas, as I've explained to you before, are simply statistical constructs. They do not adhere to administrative boundaries; for example Greater Manchester Urban Area is 4.8 times larger than the local authority district of Manchester and neither do the urban area’s boundaries follow those of the former metropolitan county of Greater Manchester. What's more, the ONS urban area boundaries are not static: changes in land use can lead to a boundary change of an urban area. Pondle (talk) 21:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about all that has been said, my main concern is that traditionally Swansea is the name of a city, and might be what readers are expecting to find on this page. I did read this page again and came across a link to city centre which I added to the disambiguation page, and think should be given greater prominence here. I wonder how this this would have all turned out if the county had been named something else? Derek Andrews (talk) 10:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)