Talk:Swami Shankar Purushottam Tirtha

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this is the second page Ive created; the first is siddhayoga that came out ok.
my question is why is this page considered for deletion? it is similar and linked to the first page.
What do I need to do to make this an acceptable page?
thanks
Babaji108 02:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

hello...? please provide specific advice how to make this an acceptable page so it wont get deleted? Babaji108 16:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Your best bet would be to state your case for the article over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Swami_Shankar_Purushottam_Tirtha I've given a few thoughts there, but more voices are required. -Vritti 18:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Vritti, and for your email. I've replied on the for-deletion talk page and made major additions to the page. I'm now looking for an editor assistant to help with both pages to bring them up to snuff.

By the way, where does the edit summary appear - I dont see my or anyone's summary
Peace
--Babaji108 01:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Tantra Today as a reliable source? 2 Questions from the page creator 3 Related sites section 4 Reliable sources and citations 5 Only 2 quotations remaining 6 Cleanup

[edit] Tantra Today as a reliable source?

I'm concerned here about the use of the Tantra today website as a reliable source especially regarding the influence of Yoga Vani on Muktananda. The author of the website does not state where he got his information from. Does anyone else know of another source that supports this statement?TheRingess (talk) 02:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I also am not pleased with the lack of sourcing, but being new to wiki, I thought it was considered acceptable as it is a non-related site. I've yet to find other sources. But I can try to get an early edition of Muktananda's book where he purportedly praises Yoga Vani... it will take a few weeks to get the book and find the reference. Please be patient. Or if anyone has the page number and can email me the quote and bibliography info that would help. --Babaji108 02:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. You might wish to read Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources. I've removed a bit of material that seemed rather non neutral to me. See WP:NPOV. I have a copy of Play of Consciousness, and when I get a few minutes I'll see if I can find a relevant quote. I agree, a direct quote where Muktananda directly cites Yoga Vani would be most appropriate. If we can find the quote, it would be nice to include it on his page also.TheRingess (talk) 03:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

My copy of Play of Consciousness, is the 4th edition, published by the SYDA Foundation, in 1988, ISBN 0-914602-37-3. The index lists one reference for Yogavani on page 99.

Nagad was a solitary and beautiful place. My meditation progressed automatically. I studied books such as Mahayoga Vijnana, containing descriptions of some experiences which are helpful for the yoga of meditation. I sent for other, similar books, such as Yogavani and Shaktipat. Mahayoga has a very important place in Shaivite philosophy. In the Shivasutras, Pratyabhijnahridayam, Tantraloka, Shivadrishti, one can read what the saints say, in the light of their own experiences, about Shaktipat, the grace of a Siddha, and the dynamic play of Mother Kundalini.

It's hard to say from this quote alone, how much the Yogavani influenced Muktananda, but we can see that he recommended it.TheRingess (talk) 03:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions from the page creator

1. 3 major sections have been deleted even when there were reliable sources like Hinduism Today - I didnt see a watchlist explanation for the deletions. Please explain

2. Now the page says it is missing citations and/or footnotes. But the bio in its entirety is cited from the Yoga Vani book "about the author" pages, and the rest of the page is footnoted. Please explain what is left to cite.

3. Someone posted to create a biography page for Swami Shankar Purushottam Tirtha page. My question is, do I just copy the page info into a biography page? or is something else required?

Thanks --Babaji108 03:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have answers for your question, but you can track changes to the article on its history page. --Evb-wiki 03:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm the person who made some major deletions. I had several reasons why I thought it appropriate to delete some of the material. My deletion were based purely on my own understanding of Wikipedia's major content policies of WP:NPOV and WP:ATT.

For example, I found the following sentence that I removed to be rather more of an opinion, than established fact. "In the sphere of Hindu swamis and meditation groups, there is a sect as siddha or siddhayoga. While Siddhayoga is a fairly well known branch of Hinduism, even in the West, little effort has been made to show Swamiji’s position as one of the most influential teachers during the 1900’s, when some of the first known books on siddhayoga appeared, and a part of a longer, pure siddhayoga lineage."

As I mentioned in a previous section, some of the websites referenced do not seem to cite their sources. The best source for how much and in what ways this Swami and his writings influenced Muktananda, would be Muktananda's writings. The only quote I could find in POC does not establish to what extent the book influenced his teachings. I'm not questioning that it did, I'm just saying that we need to find more reliable sources that can establish the how's, what's and why's of that influence (which would lead to a much better article). Ditto for the Swami's influence on other Siddhayoga sects.

Also much information seemed repeated in several sections.

Since there is an article about siddhayoga also, it seems to me that most of the sy related material here belongs there.

Now keep in mind, that I'm just expressing my take on things. What was deleted can be undeleted.

BTW, welcome.

I removed the citations missing template, having noticed that there are reliable citations for much of the info in the biography section. I think it could use a few more.

Regarding question 3, if you are referring to the Biography template above, you do not need to copy this page anywhere. This is standard practice on Wikipedia. There are many projects dedicated to various categories of articles. Adding it to the project simply makes it easier for those editors who enjoy improving biographical articles to find it. TheRingess (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

To TheRingess:

Many thanks for providing the quote from Muktananda, it helps establish the person as more notable.

Also thanks for sharing your thinking process. I see what you mean about opinion and information placement.

Would you be more specific about where more citations are needed? To my untrained eye, it looks alright.

In an earlier watchlist line from you it says, “add to the biography project as start”. Does this mean you added this person to the biography, or you suggest it be done? This is what I was discussing, I’m unsure what your comment means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Babaji108 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm....I don't think I can be more specific, perhaps the current citations are sufficient. The other edit, refers to this template: {{WPBiography}}, that I added near the top of this talk page. For more information about templates in general please see WP:TM. This template basically places the article (not the person) into a broad category of biography articles. Basically this invites collaboration on the article by those interested in biographical articles. The word 'start' refers to a general classification of articles. For more information on Wikipedia Projects see WP:PROJ. For more information on what the start classification means, the biography project, or how we rate articles in general, please click on the links provided in the boxes at the top of this page.TheRingess (talk) 05:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Great, that clears things up. Thanks for all you efforts. --Babaji108 05:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Related sites section

I've removed the section, because the links contained therein are already linked in the intro paragraph. "A See also section should not repeat links already present in the article, links that are only vaguely related to the topic, or link to pages that do not exist. Topics related to an article should be included within the text of the article. Topics that could not reasonably be made into article text probably do not belong in a see also section." See Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout#See_also. --Evb-wiki 00:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

ok I see. I thought a summary was a useful idea, but I take your point. --Babaji108 13:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable sources and citations

Have sent email and called India to comply with the request for more reliable sources and citations. It may take some time to hear back. Just wanted to let you know Im aiming to comply with this request. --Babaji108 16:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Only 2 quotations remaining

The call to reduce quotations has been complied with; there are only two on the page and one in the section the reduction was called for. I've checked other similar pages eg, yogananda and see they too have two quotes and is considered acceptable. If I am missing something, please inform me. Thanks. --Babaji108 14:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

I have added the {{cleanup}} tag to the article. There are two main points.
1. The article treats everything he has said, and all his miracles, as facts. Wikipedia has no position on this. They are being reported, and that is how we should treat them. ("He allegedly...", etc.)
2. The article contains a lot of jargon, making it virtually unreadable for outsiders. Imagine you, like me, know nothing whatsoever about yoga, and read the very first sentence of the article: "Swami Shankar Purushottam Tirtha was a danda sannyasi the founder of Shankar Math (Uttarkashi) and Siddhayoga Ashram (Varanasi) in the early 1900's and a Tirtha-Siddhayoga lineage guru." I have bolded the words that are incomprehensible for non-experts. Such terms appear throughout the article.
Aecis^Brievenbus 00:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)