Talk:Swabian War

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Oh yes, is it? Well, nice to see that the article has been "adopted", but it was written without any knowledge of that project. Lupo 07:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

But of course — the project, for all real purposes, didn't exist at the time! No taking of credit for the article intended :) Kirill Lokshin 13:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] References

I'm sorry that all references lead to sources in German language, but I have not found a single useful on-line or paper reference in English. Anyone knows one? Lupo 09:11, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

I am surprised to discover that we don't have articles on high jurisdiction and low jurisdiction, two fairly important concepts if one wants to try to understand medieval politics and power structures. I am not a medievalist myself, so maybe the concepts go by different English names? C.f. de:Hohe Gerichtsbarkeit and de:Niedere Gerichtsbarkeit. Lupo 09:16, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

All right: these seem to be called high justice and low justice. Lupo 20:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Supply line phrase

Removed the following from the article's lead section, as it doesn't parse:

Finally, the Swiss had the strategic advantages location and shorter supply lines.

Originally, the phrase had been "...strategic advantage of shorter distances". The following conversation has been copied here from User talk:Petaholmes and User talk:Lupo by Lupo 07:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC):

Thanks for helping improve my grammar, I really do appreciate it. Just a minor point on "shorter distances" in the lead, which you replaced by "shorter supply lines". I'm not quite sure that this is true. If it refers to food: both sides got the food for their armies from the areas where these armies were located. If it refers to ammunition etc, I don't know where either armies got that from. If it refers to bring new troops to the front from the hinterland, then it may be true: in the Habsburg/Swabian armies served mercenaries from Flanders (which Maximilian had brought with him, and which then stayed, so they don't really count), but also troops from e.g. Nuremberg, which is quite far away. However, I was referring more to the simple fact that the Swiss could march from their main camp at Schwaderloh south of Constance directly to the southern Grisons, as they controlled the whole territory along the way, whereas Maximilian and his troops had to make a huge detour around Lake Constance, over the Arlberg into Tyrol and then into the Val Venosta to get e.g. from Constance to the Val Müstair (and back). These long travel times also contributed to the Swiss victory (-ies), because the Swabian leaders were separated from Maximilian for extended time periods, and it was thus difficult for them to agree on a common battle plan. Is this covered by the term "supply line", too? If not, how could one express this better, but still in a concise way? Lupo 10:16, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You're right, its a bit more complicated that just supply lines, but they are part of the situation. The definition of supply line definition seems to miss the aspect of moving units in and out of a area. The sentence now says Finally, the Swiss had the strategic advantages location and shorter supply lines, which should be ok while I try and find a word that describes the advantage of not having to travel long distances. Excellent article, did you write and translate it?--nixie 10:47, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks! It's not a translation from de:Schwabenkrieg. It's original English text I wrote a s a summary of the references given. Maybe it reads like a translation in places; if so, that's just my first language showing through :-) (or rather, :-(...)
Sorry, but strategic advantages location and shorter supply lines doesn't parse. Missing "of"? Lupo 11:07, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

If someone can come up with a concise way of expressing what I explained above, we could re-add the improved phrase. It isn't essential, though, and the article is just as good without it. Lupo 07:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map needed

This article could use a map similar to the one here, ideally a relief map of Switzerland and the surrounding area (including rivers and lakes), with the borders of 1499, and the most important places marked. I have neither the necessary skill nor the tools to do that myself. Can someone help me out? Thank you. Lupo 22:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The map is done now - any comments, wishes? Sidonius 15:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Great, thank you very much! Just a few minor nitpicks (sorry...):
<Snip snip> by Lupo, see commons:Image talk:Map_Swabian_War.png. Lupo 16:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Lupo 07:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Wars

From the last section:

... The Swiss involvement ended only with their defeat in the Battle of Marignano in 1515 and a subsequent peace treaty with the French king (1516).

This seems, at least on the surface, wildly incorrect; the Swiss played a very significant role until at least 1525 (e.g. at Bicocca and Pavia), and I'm pretty certain (though I'll need to check this) that they continued to participate even past that date (perhaps as late as 1544?). Is this just a mistake, or is there some more subtle point that's being made here? Kirill Lokshin 02:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not an error, but I should probably clarify. The involvement of the Old Swiss Confederacy, acting in its own interests, was brought to an end by their defeat at Marignano. However, Swiss mercenaries in the service of various parties and, following that "Eternal Peace" with France in 1516, in particular in the Service of the French king, continued well beyond. I have already an article about the details of the Swiss conquest of the Ticino in the pipeline. At the German WP, there's already de:Ennetbirgische Feldzüge, covering that aspect. I'll rephrase the sentence. Lupo 08:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, ok. That's a bit clearer. Kirill Lokshin 17:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battles of the Swabian War

I covered practically all major battles on the German Wikipedia now and uploaded some more pictures to the commons. They are all categorized by "Swabian War" now. I cannot translate them because I am busy writing the Swiss history in German. Perhaps somebody else has some free time...? Sidonius 21:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll get to it shortly, don't worry... the "many red links" was one of the comments at the peer review. Lupo 21:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GAC passed

I think the atricle is both well written and well source and met GA class standards so I passed it.However, I have one question. Is it possible to add the comanders to the info box. Thanks. Kyriakos 13:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do, but that'll be difficult, because (a) there were several on the Swabian side, and (b) the Swiss basically had different commanders in the various battles; the Swiss had no a unified "high command". Lupo 14:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have reworded several statements in the article myself. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, and I'll leave the article on hold for seven days for them to be fixed.

  1. "When he had been banned by Pope Pius XII in a conflict over the nomination of a bishop in Tyrol, the Swiss had annexed the formerly Habsburg territories of the Thurgau, and in 1468, he clashed with the Swiss in the War of Waldshut, which he could end without significant territorial losses only by paying a large ransom, which he financed by pawning territories in the Sundgau and the Alsace to Charles the Bold of Burgundy in 1469." This is one long sentence that should probably be split into two.
    • Done. Lupo 07:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  2. "The Duchy of Burgundy was also a French fiefdom and immediately claimed by Charles VIII." Consider rewording this sentence.
    • Feel free to reword this yourself. The point is that after the death of Charles of Burgundy, the French king Charles VIII claimed the Duchy as his own as an "immediate" fiefdom, i.e., for himself directly, without any intermediate liege lords. See also imperial immediacy. Lupo 07:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  3. In the "The course of the war" section, a large of the information is not sourced. It is usually a best bet to have at least one source per paragraph (this is not required, but is a good way to help source the majority of the information). Add a few more sources and it should be fine. Examples of statements you can source include:
    1. "On January 20, 1499, Habsburg troops occupied the valley and plundered the Benedictine Convent of Saint John at Müstair, but were soon driven back by the forces of the Three Leagues, and an armistice was signed already on February 2 in Glurns (Glorenza), a village in the upper Vinschgau."
    2. "When those engaged in the usual insults on the Swiss, the latter crossed the Rhine and killed the scoffers."
    3. "The Swabians lost more than 1,000 soldiers; 130 from the city of Constance alone"
    4. "He declared an imperial ban over the Swiss Confederacy in an attempt to gain wider support for the operation amongst the German princes by declaring the conflict an "imperial war"."
      • All these are sourced in general to Riezler, as mentioned in the references section. Lupo 07:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If these are not addressed within seven days (the main requirement being #3), the article may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. I will leave notices on the talk pages of the main contributors to this article along with related WikiProjects to ensure that the above issues are addressed by the appropriate people. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 23:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Sweeps: Pass

Good work on addressing the above issues, and at this time the article continues to meet the requirements of the GA criteria. Continue to improve the article, ensuring all new information is properly sourced. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. --Nehrams2020 20:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)