Talk:Sviatoslav Richter

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[edit] First name of Neuhaus

Thanks to whoever wrote this, it's a good entry. Just one query - do you (or anybody else) know the first name of this Neumann chap who taught Richter and also taught Horowitz? We'll probably eventually have entries on more than one person called Neumann, so it'll be useful to know his first name. I'll be able to look it up this week sometime, but in the meantime, it'd be good if you could add it to the article if you know it. --Camembert

(later - now it's been added) Thanks! As usual, my "later this week" turned into "some time in the next century" ;-) --Camembert

PS that was Neuhaus of course, not Neumann!

[edit] Wife

Is it really true that Richter and Dorliac married in 1946? I have heard otherwise, so that's why I mention it here.

Says so on the sleeve notes to my CD (http://www.pluto.no/KulturSpeilet/faste/cd/Pianists_Richter.html is the one). What did you hear? William M. Connolley 21:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC).

http://my.dreamwiz.com/fischer/srichter/srichter-e.htm says yes; http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/sviatoslavrichter/message/4 says maybe; elsewhere on the Internet it says variously Nina was his common-law wife, that she was "Richter's 'wife'" (so expressed), and that a marriage was celebrated six months after S.R.'s death. I believe it would certainly be true to say they were constant companions and lived together since the 1940s. However I do not know the strict facts beyond that. PS No mention of marriage is made in the Bruno Monsaingeon film "Richter: the Enigma" or the book version "Richter: Notebooks and Conversations".

I'd trust sleevenotes over something quoted on the internet from the Telegraph. Without something a bit more definitive I can't see any great reason to doubt it. Unless... that article also says he was homosexual... is that what you mean? William M. Connolley 23:56, 24 November 2005 (UTC).
How could a marriage be performed after Richter's death? There's no such thing as a retrospective marriage. -- JackofOz 12:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pierre Fournier

I removed a reference to Pierre Fournier until I find some evidence that these two performed together. Lpgeffen 21:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

A. Tanin's "Recorded Richter" shows that SR and Fournier played together in 1969, but it's not enough to match Oistrakh or Rostropovich. Lpgeffen 16:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Fournier is also listed as a performance partner in Monsaingeon's book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 38.117.232.33 (talk) 01:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Homosexual

I removed the sentence "They did not marry because Richter was homosexual." because it is conjecture. Richter did not explain why he wasn't married. As far as I know, his biographers didn't ask him. I don't dispute that Richter was homosexual. This is widely rumored but I am reluctant to treat is as a fact, especially in this context, as it was never asserted by Richter himself. But I would be happy to discuss it further. Lpgeffen 15:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd already asked the user (1st edit) to add more on sources here. Pavel Vozenilek 17:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

I removed the following paragraph from the article. It needs more sources, at least.

One of the well kept "secrets" of Sviatoslav Richter's life was that he was almost certainly a homosexual [1]. His relationship with partner Nina Dorliac was obviously a close friendship, but it is acknowledged by scholars of Richter that the relationship existed primarily to protect him from Soviet society at the time. Richter is on record in Bruno Monsaigeon's movie The Enigma as having said he was followed constantly while on tour in the states by watchful Soviets. It is openly acknowledged by Richter that he was in a constant state of panic because government agents followed him everywhere. This fear was almost certainly partially derived from the fact that the "policy" towards homosexuality in Russia at the time was highly toxic. Even Nikolai Zverev, the finest teacher in Moscow, was notorious for his homosexuality. The Axiom in Russia was, "Everything in private, nothing in public [2]." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lpgeffen (talk • contribs) 19:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Thank you Lpgeffen for removing that paragraph. I was about to do it myself. I have consistently checked this article, and from time to time unknown users have posted similar paragraphs/sentences regarding Mr. Richter’s sexuality. Along with occasional explicit advertisements displayed on this article’s website ([1]), Dr. Dan Healey’s sensational and slightly pornographic article on the oppression of Homosexuals in the USSR makes no references at all to Sviatoslav Richter. Also after personally viewing Monsaigeon’s film several times and reading Sviatoslav Richter: Notebooks and Conversations (Princeton University Press, 2001), I can’t help but to conclude about the following things that the vandalistic paragraph states.

1. It was probably true Richter was aware “that Government agents followed him everywhere.”

2. But due to the tone of the novel, film and his other contacts, Richter himself never mentioned anywhere and apparently was never “in a constant state of panic” because of Soviet Authorities.

As a result of this persistent insensitive vandalism, I believe this article should be granted semi-protection at the very least. Vilmosgelb 09:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I looked at that article again, and found only this sentence which briefly mentions Richter and for me, only appears to suggest that Richter was homosexual. Here it is.

'"Great talents such as Sergei Eisenstein and Sviatoslav Richter married to make their peace with an economy offering only one patron: the state (Karlinsky 1989: 361-2)."'

Am unable to find this Karlinsky that Healey sourced in his article and I don’t think this brief and vague reference is reliable or factual. Vilmosgelb 21:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The Karlinsky mentioned is "Karlinsky, Simon 1989: Russia's gay literature and culture: the impact of the October Revolution."--Wormsie 11:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, it's not vandalism. People find a source and they use it - also, Richter's homosexuality is widely rumored, and it has appeared as a fact in print press as well (unfortunately I don't have access to any at the moment in this modern age). I find it strange that when somebody tries to add a mention about a person's homosexuality to an article, people immediately consider it as libel. BTW, the article was right about Eisenstein at least.--Wormsie 11:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion this is ridiculous speculation. I've seen so much modern gossip about whether great artists were homosexuals -- da Vinci, Glenn Gould, etc. In most cases it seems to be complete rubbish: there is usually ample evidence to the contrary that is hardly acknowledged. Stop the sensationalist crap; incredibly talented people who devote their lives to an art often have trouble finding an understanding partner.--comment added by anonymous user

"Sensationalist crap?" A Wikipedia article has to be accurate, and if it claims or implies that a person is heterosexual when somebody isn't, the article is wrong. There's nothing sensationalist about homosexuality, the only problem is that in the old days people really did have to hide their sexual orientation if they were homosexual. It also helps us understand more about the person (which is the point of biography articles). For example, this article explains Richter's depression: 'Noted piano teacher Paul Moor, who had known Richter for decades, wrote a memorial article for Piano & Keyboard magazine last year in which he recalled the pianist's battles with depression. In 1958, at the time of Richter's first trips to the West, he told Moor that he sometimes went months without touching a piano, but could not explain why. Moor writes: "The life which Soviet law, almost as draconian as in Nazi Germany, forced him to lead resulted in Stygian cyclic depressions that literally crippled him, pushing him perilously in the direction of suicide. The Soviet musical world regarded Slava's homosexuality as common knowledge, and had no problems with it. But those laws deprived him, all his life, of really fulfilled personal happiness."' I'm hoping to find the actual article.--Wormsie 11:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Wormsie is correct: Richter's homosexuality has appeared as a fact in print press, even in specialised publications. For instance, David Fanning, a respected English music critic and contributing editor to Gramophone and to International Piano, has stated bluntly in a comment on Richter's career that "It did not help that he was homosexual, a fact well known in Russia despite his marriage in 1946 to the singer Nina Dorliak." (in International Piano Quarterly, Autumn 1997). MUSIKVEREIN 15:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grange de Meslay Festival

I have been told this story by a couple of French people from Tours (Grange de Meslay is near Tours) whom I met once while travelling in Helsinki but I don't know if it is true.

The organisers of the Grange de Meslay festival hired a superb grand Stanway piano for the first festival. Richter liked it so much that he took its reference number and the next year he asked them to hire the same one. A few years went like that. Then the organisers of the festival were advised that this piano was to be sold. They gathered with difficulty the huge amount of money needed to buy it, wanting to make Richter a surprise for the next festival. When the time came to hire the Steinway again Richter let them know that he had now switched to Yamaha and that he wished them to hire a Yamaha piano for the next festival.

Wikip 10:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Does anybody have a good image to upload for this article? (I have one, but can't find the copyright status) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian, Ukrainian, or Soviet?

This has gone back and forth a few times now. Some edits to the page have changed the word "Russian" in the first sentence to "Soviet" and others have changed it back. It doesn't change often, but it's a low-frequency "edit war" nonetheless.

I have changed it to say "Russian pianist of the Soviet era" as a neutral term or phrase that might help to avoid this instability.

George, 11 Feb 2007: "Russian pianist of the Soviet era" is certainly better than "Ukrainian pianist...", which is a major misrepresentation. First of all, Ukraine did not exist as an independent state when Richter was born. It was a province (as indeed the very word 'Ukraine' suggests) of the Russian Empire. "Soviet pianist" is a much more accurate term as Richter is, beyond doubt, a representative of the Moscow school and received his training during the Soviet era. Besides, being referred to as a "Soviet citizen/pianist" was a preference expressed on a few occasions by Richter himself. If Richter is a "Ukrainian pianist of the Soviet era", then Horowitz is surely a Ukrainian pianist too. Now that certainly makes little sense.

Paul 20:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

... but it didn't help. The sentence has been changed twice in the last few days, first to Ukranian, now back to Russian. I hope that editors will stop to discuss this here before making another change. -- Paul (User:Lpgeffen)

Another way to complicate the matter is to consider that Richter was an important example of the Russian School of piano technique and interpretation. This is not a well-defined category, and his nationality is also not well-defined.

Consider:

  • Richter was born in the Ukraine before the Soviet Union existed.
    • (Was the Ukraine part of Russia in 1915?)
  • He studied in Moscow (Russia) with Heinrich Neuhaus (Russian/German).
  • His professional career was under the Soviet system.
Nationality and ethnicity and citizenship. A difficult question.
1) GERMAN - Richter considered himself ethnically German. (this is despite the fact that his mother was ethnically Russian). He spoke primarilly German in the household. His father was ethnically German had stong ties with German culture having studied music in Vienna. He was also an organ player in the "kirche". His Russian biography points out the word "kirche" rather than church.
2) UKRAINIAN - He was born in Zhytomyr which certainly is in the heart of Ukraine. He studied initially in Odessa which despite its multicultural makeup is also is in Ukraine. He studied in Ukraine during a period of Ukrainianization where all education was in Ukrainian. This changed after about 1934. Neuhaus - his teacher was also ethnically German and born in Ukraine. There is a stong Ukrainian component. In 1918 Ukraine became an independant country for a short time and only joined the Soviet Union as an equal partner in 1923, I remember going to his concert in Kiev in 1980 at the Philharmonic. He actually said a few words in Ukrainian at the recital.
3) RUSSIAN - His mother was ethnically Russian. Eastern Ukraine where he was born (1915) and before the revolution was part of the Russian empire. Russian was his main language.
4) SOVIET - He studied under the Soviet regime, lived under the Soviet regime and died during the Soviet regime. - However, would a person playing music under the Nazi regime be considered a Nazi. In Richter's biography it would seem he would not have been happy with the Soviet moniker.
Go fish. You can live in one city in Eastern Europe and have a dozen citizenships (passports) yet your ethnicity will be the same. That is why in Soviet passports you had the additional line for ethnicity as the Soviets recognised that their county was multi-national. The brain drain from Ukraine to Russia was significant with up to a million Ukrainians living and working in Moscow at one time. Now there are more than a million chinese there many of who do not speak Russian. Who are they?

No matter how you lable them - someone will be offended. --Bandurist 22:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC) .

[edit] new citation

Monsaigeon's book quotes Richter as saying that he learned the Prokofiev Sonata no. 7 in "just four days" (page 79 in the Princeton edition) but Richter does not say that he learned the Bach WTC II in a month. Instead, on page 52 he says he learned it "in the autumn of 1943," which implies two or three months. Paul 19:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

See Monsaingeon's book at 48: "I learned [WTC II] by heart in a month".

[edit] The Greatest Pianist of all Time?

I love Richter as much as the next piano enthusiast, but this is unsourced. We don't find language nearly as enthusiastic regarding Gilels, either.

The link which is explicitly cited inline says that "Sviatoslav Richter was arguably the greatest pianist of the twentieth century.". See [3]. Grover cleveland 19:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

True, the article in the link does say that. However, articles could be found which would say the same thing about Arthur Rubinstein or Vladimir Horowitz. Isn't quoting one link from a second rate (in my opinion) music guide going a bit overboard? Oh, and I think the person above meant Gilels! THD3 20:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the phrase "widely recognized as one of the great pianists of the 20th century" is praise enough but some writers have gone further. It is also clear that Richter inspires passionate and even fanatical enthusiasm in some of his listeners. If we take out the "arguably the greatest" part then someone will feel compelled to reinstate it. I would prefer to keep the discussion here and not risk an edit war. -- Paul 23:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree, Good-Music-Guide is not a reputable (nor widely-recognized) sorce to quote in the opening paragraph. There is too much emphasis put on "greatness" in the opening paragraph. The very statement "greatest of all" begs questioning. Unless someone else feels the need to rate pianists on a "greatness" scale from 1 to 10, then I'll remove it for now Gordon Freeman 21:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no "praise enough" to the Richter's music. Richter WAS the Greatest Pianist of the 20th Century. Why all of you need "citations" in scope to admit this? What kind of "citations" you expect to exist on this subject? And who is this "Musicverein"?? I became very upset every time, when some little "mushrooms" like Barenboim or any sorts of "Musicverein's" are so jealous about Richter. Richter was simply "The Best" the big oak tree there in the field. Quiet, private man, genius, in so difficult times and circumstances.

Edits on this subject continue to appear with alarming frequency, always followed by reversions thereof. Isn't there a way to put an end to this senseless editing ping-pong ? MUSIKVEREIN 17:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no any disturbing mean to call someone "the greatest". I don't understand how the "neutrality" of the Wiki project is violated simply because we want to call Sviatoslav Richter "the greatest pianist". Simply the Richter WAS The GREATEST pianist of the 20th century. This is obviously, but not only to the so-called MUSICVEREIN, who have small brain (if have at all). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.218.172.3 (talk) 22:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


Then isn't it necessary to remove the exaggerated 'myth' from the article? It's still there :P I thought it'd've been already removed. Alicenoemi 23:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)



I removed the part. Alicenoemi 09:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV edits

What is going on with all the pointless revisions to this page? The quality of this article has descended to the point that it's becoming a joke.THD3 19:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article is now a joke. The wilful omission of any reference to Richter playing at Stalin's funeral (about which he talks extensively in Monsaingeon's documentary) is particularly grotesque. L'omo del batocio 09:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chapter disappearance

For some strange reason, the chapter "Played Bach's Fugue at Stalin's Funeral ?" has disappeared from the page. If you go to "edit this page" everything is still there, but for some reason it doesn't show on the page itself. Can anybody please explain what happened here ? MUSIKVEREIN 14:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monsaingeon' documentary

I am adding Bruno Monsaingeon's superb inteview-documentary to the references. In my opinion it's a must-see for anyone interested in Richter and in music in the Soviet Union. L'omo del batocio 08:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vladimir Nabokov?

Footnote 6 quotes a 1963 letter from Vladimir Nabokov to Igor Stravinsky about, among other things, Schubert and Bach. This seems strange to me; not only do I recall an interview with Nabokov from the seventies in which he said that he didn't know Stravinsky personally, but he also often mentioned that he didn't much care for or know about music. Could it be that this is a mistake and that the letter was written by his cousin, Nicolas Nabokov (who was a composer and on good terms with Stravinsky)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct, the letter was from Nicolas Nabokov. My bad. I rechecked the source this morning. I will correct this once the lock on the article is lifted.THD3 (talk) 14:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)