Talk:Susan Polgar

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[edit] Anglicised her name

Do you have an authority that Zsófia Polgár has officially anglicised her name? PatGallacher 13:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Look at the list of her ISBN-bearig books. She changed the name she publishes under.
I used to be a friend of the Polgars before any of the girls married. I was the family's guest in 1983 during the Budapest World Congress of Esperanto. I remember that when they took part together in chess tournaments, it was as Polgar Zs. (Zsuzsanna i.e. Susan), Polgar S. (Sofia i.e. Zsófia) and Polgar J. (Judit). Now I am conscious that this state of affairs may have changed now that Zsuzsanna lives in the USA and calls herself Susan, and that all three sisters live in different countries, indeed in different continents; but anyway, if you want to give Zsófia her Hungarian name, don't forget the acute accent. - Tonymec 12:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. That could have been just a device for differentiating them at that stage. I don't think there is such a name as Zsuzsanna, she is either Zsuzsa or Susan. PatGallacher 12:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, she's called Zsuzsanna on her act of birth and on her Hungarian passport; Zsuzsa (or Zsuzsi) is a diminutive. - Tonymec 22:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, this is correct. hu:Zsuzsa says "A Zsuzsa női név a Zsuzsanna rövidülése" which an online dictionary helps decipher as "Zsuzsa is a feminine name that's a short form of Zsuzsanna" (maybe a Hungarian speaker can confirm). Also, hu:Zsuzsanna lists Zsuzsa as a nickname (Becenév). Phr 07:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Tonymec is right. Her actual legal name is Zsuzsanna, not Zsuzsa or Susan. Sam Sloan 13:26, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, now some Wikipedia administrator is going to ask me what book that is published in. It is not in a book. I have seen her actual passport. Sam Sloan 13:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

When it says she speaks seven languages, is that really fluently...? I mean, esperanto?

And why is it important in a wikipedia context? It makes it sound more like a publicity announcement.

What do you mean, Esperanto? Do you mean Esperanto isn't a language? If you do, just check its Wikipedia, you'll be surprised.
About speaking several languages, it doesn't surprise me from that kind of person; so it sounds "people", so what? She's human, she's more than just a chess-playing flesh-and-bones robot. IMO, mentioning that she speaks several languages adds "human interest" to the article. - Tonymec 20:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I know what Esperanto is, thank you, I'm just wondering how one exercises one's "fluency" in a language that's mainly spoken at conventions. As for human interest, I think this is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a page from People magazine. Factuary 17:03, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Esperanto is spoken, among others, at conventions. It is also spoken whenever two or more people of different native languages, but having Esperanto in common, come together. Furthermore, Esperanto is used as a written language between those same people, e.g. in mail, and in places such as the Wikipedia. From what I have seen, Susan Polgar's (and ther parents' and sisters') fluency in Esperanto was of great help to them in traveling outside Hungary and, among others, in taking part in international chess competitions.
Just as in any other language, fluency in Esperanto is exercised by talking, reading and writing. Finding people with which to use it is made easier by such "institutions" as, for instance, the "Jarlibro de UEA" (Yearbook of the Universal Esperanto Association), the "Pasporta Servo" (a yearbook of Esperantists who will host passing fellow Esperantists for free for a few days) and the "Koresponda Servo Mondskala" (World Correspondence Service, an Esperanto homologue to Pen Pal). - Tonymec 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

From left field: If this is an encyclopedic entry on a person then it ought surely list something like how many and which languages of fluency if it's known. This isn't a trivial facet of anyone's person and not merely human inteest, but of some (if not ground-breaking) pertinence to the entire article. However I would question the ordering of the languages listed. Currently Esperanto is listed first and that does indeed look oddly hyped in favour of that language. Surely such a list would adopt some impartial order, ideally an estimate (ideally by Susan herslef) of the order of fluency, or the order in which they were aqcuired or failing that plain old alphabetic order. Bur surely for an Hungarian the list ought to start "Hungarian, ....". - Bernd 7:40, 24 January 2006 (AEST)

I would like to see WIKI update the POlgar pages to reflect the true beginnings of their chess careers, being the "Polgar Experiment" and their fathers involvement. I was disappointed not see any mention or significant mention of it. Its results are far more interestind and has greater implications than someone doing well at chess.

[edit] The Sam Sloan incident

The political gaga from Mr. Sam Sloan doesn't belong on this page. Please keep Sloan off this page. (C.I. 8-2006)

I agree. However I think the fact that she is opposing him deserves to be mentioned. While there has been slander here on the talk page, I have seen nothing inappropriate in the paragraph + cites on the main page. I say restore that paragraph to the main page, though perhaps with fewer cites (they were all links to her blog, one or two will suffice). Rocksong 01:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Disliking a racist sexist child-exploiting antisemitic felon is, umm, nonnotable WRT the entirety of subject's life. Agree that it could develop into something notable, but encyclopedias are not newspapers. Billbrock 02:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
She doesn't just dislike him, she's campaigning to get him off the USCF board. I have no idea if she's leading the campaign, or if she's one of thousands. If the former, then IMHO it's notable. p.s. nevertheless, we should request semiprotection the page. Rocksong 02:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There is some discussion of this at Talk:Sam Sloan. There's something to it, but Andrew Morrow needs to butt out of this discussion. Phr (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a place for you to vandalize and promote a convicted felon. This is also not a place for you to promote political propaganda. DO NOT vandalize this page. Enough already (C.I. 8-2006).

A poster name Andrew Morrow has been vandalizing Polgar's blog. He also made multiple threat to her children and family. Keep him from vandalizing this page. (C.I. 8-2006)

[edit] Too many adjectives

Susan Polgar has done many admirable things in her life and her actions speak for themselves. The article is filled with positively judgmetal adjectives that simply do no belong in a factual article. They make the article sound like a press release. They actually detract from the positive impression that the facts alone lend to Susan Polgar, because the adjectives suggest there is some need for them. There is no need for them, and they have no place in an encyclopedia article. Just the facts.Daqu 15:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympiad

I'm fairly sure, though far from certain, that Susan Polgar has only played in women's olympiads. Both Hungary and USA are so strong that I think she'd struggle to make their men's teams actually. Rocksong 05:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Only on women's teams. You can check out the site http://www.olimpbase.org, which has complete records. On this page, http://olimpbase.org/statistics/all_id01.html we can see that Judit is the only Polgar to have played on the Hungarian Men's team. On this page, http://olimpbase.org/statisticsw/all_id01.html we see that Susan played on the Hungarian Women's Team in 1998, 1990, and 1994, and on the US Women's Team in 2004. BurkeDevlin 08:27, 14 June 2007

[edit] First Female Grandmaster

The article states that Polgar was the first woman to earn the Grandmaster title in regular competition. This is not exactly true. She was the first woman to earn the Grandmaster title with no discretion being exercised, which is harder to explain.

The Wikipedia article on Nona Gaprindashvili (the first female Grandmaster), states that she was awarded the title automatically for having been Women's World Champion. This is not true. She earned it in regular competition. The story can be read in Pal Benko's column in the January 1979 issue of Chess Life & Review. Put simply, the regular process required a player to score certain results called "norms", in events totalling at least 24 games. Gaprindashvili had the norm results, but was a game or two short of the 24 game total. FIDE exercised some discretion and gave her the title anyway.

I've heard (but am not completely certain) that the same sort of discretion was used for Edmar Mednis (who also got his GM title that year). There had been incidents in the past in which players had been denied GM titles in ways which seemed unfair to many people. The most notable example being Frank Ross Anderson, who in the 1958 Munich Olympiad, merely had to show up for his final game to become a GM. Even if he lost, he'd have had the title. But illness prevented him from playing, he ended up one game short in his norm requirements, and never got the title. Things seemed to have loosened up a bit after that, to the point where some discretion could be used in borderline cases, such as Gaprindashvili's.

Nowadays, there's also a requirement to achieve a 2500 rating, but no such requirement existed in 1978. The ratings have inflated by about 100 points since then anyway.

When Susan Polgar earned the GM title, she had the norms, pure and simple; both the results, and the required number of total games, without the need for any discretionary judgments to be applied to her case. Nona was the first woman to earn the title through "regular competition", but Polgar was the first to do it without discretion. -- BurkeDevlin 08:52, 14 June 2007 (CST)

Isn't it true, though, that from 1978 onwards the Women's World Chess Champion automatically became a GM? Perhaps Gaprindashvili forced them to make the change, but that is the rule. So as it stands it's not incorrect. What we need to avoid is the implication that Gaprindashvili and Maia Chiburdanidze weren't "real" GMs, and I've done that already by toning down the language here and in a couple of other places. In fact Chiburdanidze has a higher peak rating and higher peak world ranking than Susan Polgar, according to Chessmetrics, so it seems to me there's little doubt she was GM strength. Perhaps she had the results to get the norms anyway (but no one was counting because she already had the title). Peter Ballard 23:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I've just seen that you've quoted Benko more fully at Talk:Nona Gaprindashvili. Let's discuss it there, where it is more on-topic. Peter Ballard 00:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There have been many cases of players being awarded the GM title without meeting the qualifications. At one point I believe that MOST of the GM titles were awarded when the recipient had not quite made the norms. Most cases were harmless because the player is question was clearly GM strength. For example, Mikhail Tal was awarded the GM title without ever making a norm, but he had won the Soviet Championship twice, which did not count because it was not an international tournament.

Gaprindashvili had one one norm, not the required three. She won the tournament at Lone Pine in 1977. They gave her the GM title for that and because she was a woman.

Chiburdanidze never msde a GM norm. Never came close. They gave her the title because she was Woman's World Champion. Susan Polgar was the first woman to make the three required norms the same way that a man would have made it and thus her claim is valid.

Nowadays, Mikko Markkula, Chairman of the FIDE Qualification Commission, checks every FIDE Title application carefully and has been able to stop many questionable title applications from being approved. Sam Sloan 13:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

According to this article by Susan Polgar, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/polgar11.pdf, Chibudanidze made one GM norm, Gaprindashvili two. --Pallen 15:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Does Chiburdanidze's "one norm" mean before she was awarded the title in 1984? She had some very strong results in the mid 1980s. According to Chessmetrics, for what that's worth, her peak rating is higher than Susan Polgar's, while her peak performance is the same. Peter Ballard 00:15, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I assume before being awarded the title. No one talks about norms after having the title. I remember the common view at the time was that it was 'unfortunate' Maia was given the title a special way because everyone assumed she would get it soon the normal way, and that would be a better precedent. As for her strength in her twenties vs. Polgar in her twenties, we'll obviously never know. I guess the chessmetrics data suggests her relative position among active international players her peak was higher than Polgar's at her peak. On the other hand, chessmetrics ratings suggest that Maia would beat Bent Larsen and Roman Dzindzichashvili in the mid 80s. I suspect most grandmasters would seriously doubt this. --Pallen 13:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


The article still states, incorrectly, that Gaprindashvili got the GM title automatically for being Women's World Champion. I quoted this in the Nona article discussion, but it bears repeating here. Here's how Pal Benko described Nona's acquisition of the title:

Here's the way Pal Benko tells it on page 15 of the January 1979 issue of Chess Life & Review:


...Of course [Nona] had earned the "woman grandmaster" title awarded by the International Chess Federation (FIDE), as have some two dozen other women. But she also earned the (men's) international master title, becoming the first woman ever to have done so (Vera Menchik was probably strong enough to have earned this title, but she died in 1943 [sic], long before the modern title system was adopted), and in Buenos Aires in November 1978 FIDE bestowed upon Nona Gaprindashvili the (men's) international grandmaster title. Not only is she the only woman ever to have received this title, she is the only woman ever to have deserved it.

It is regrettable, therefore, that she did not actually earn the title in the regular way: FIDE requires that to earn the grandmaster title a player must achieve certain minimum scores in tournaments consisting of at least twenty-four games in aggregate (the description is highly oversimplified, but you get the idea), and Nona was two or three games short. Yet the FIDE Qualifications Commission voted to give her the title. In my opinion, this historic occasion should not have been allowed to carry even this slight tarnish.

Source: Chess Life & Review, January 1979

Nona actually had two GM norms, not one. Chiburdanidze had one. But the important thing is not the number of norms, but the number of *games*. You needed to have 24, and Nona was a couple short. They gave her the title anyway. It was not just because she was a woman, I believe that Edmar Mednis got his title the exact same way. This all dates back to an incident in 1958, when Frank Ross Anderson had a GM norm sewn up. All he had to do was show up for his final game in the olympiad, and even if he lost, he'd be a GM. But he fell ill and was unable to play (something to do with receiving the incorrect prescription medicine), was unable to play, fell one game short in the overall requirement, and never did become a GM.

Chiburdanidze quite probably became a GM automatically by being Women's World Champion. But that was in 1984, after she'd held that title for 6 years. This rule didn't exist when Nona was Women's Champion, nor did FIDE go back and retroactively give the GM title to previous Women's Champions (Polgar had a plea on her blog last month *asking* them to do this, which means that they haven't already).

(On another note, someone mentioned that Tal got the title for winning the Soviet Championship twice. He actually got it after winning it only once, in 1957. The FIDE President at the time (Folke Rogard) granted the title, but, in the interest of East/West balance, also gave the GM title to the US Champion at the time, Arthur Bisguier.)

Is Polgar's claim "correct"? Well, that depends how it's being worded on a given day. I've seen her say that she was the first woman to "earn" the GM title, which seems awfully dubious. (Anybody want to say that Tal didn't earn his?) On the other hand, after the recent election, I saw her write that she was the first woman to earn it using the same criteria used for men, which is basically correct. (Some men benefitted from the same kind of discretionary judgment that Nona received, but it was possible to deny her this judgment, while it wasn't possible (without breaking the rules entirely) to deny Polgar her title. She certainly did something that Nona didn't.

But the question here isn't really whether Polgar's claim is correct, it's whether Nona got her title automatically for being Women's World Champion, as the article claims. According to Benko at the time, no, she didn't get it that way. -- BurkeDevlin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.166.255.42 (talk) 14:20, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

It says she speaks six other languages, then lists seven. EamonnPKeane 22:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Election Campaign

Seeking opinions on whether a little more should be said on this. A public slate is unusual for USCF (I've been a member since the 1970s and don't recall a similar instance). That her husband is part of the slate has been cause for some controversy. Some long time, reputable, figures in the US chess scene, initially supportive of her, have come out against her based on the nature of the campaign (e.g. Bill Goichberg, Jerry Hanken). --Pallen 05:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking this section should be deleted. I've no doubt she was elected to the USCF board, but the sources don't work any more - they point to the front page of the USCF site. The section doesn't explain what "first ever chairman" means. The second and third paragraphs, while perhaps interesting gossip for USCF members, doesn't seem to be of general interest for most readers of this article; many of the sources are personal blogs and such that are not very valid for this site, and the allegations in the lawsuit are more focused on Susan's husband than Susan herself. Warren Dew (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] False claims

False Claims by Polgar

Polgar propaganda constantly claims that Polgar is a "Four Times Woman's World Champion". This is not true. She only won the Woman's World Championship one time. That was in 1996.

Now that she has been elected, this allegation appears on the USCF website. It will be interesting to see if this appears in Chess Life, where everybody will know that it is false.

Several more false claims about Polgar appear. Here is part of a USCF Press Release at:

http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/press_33_97.php

"Former Women’s World Champion Susan Polgar has just been elected as the first ever Chairman of the USCF. Grandmaster Susan Polgar is the winner of four Women’s World Championships and ten Olympiad medals (5 Gold, 4 Silver and 1 Bronze). She was the first woman to break the gender barrier to earn the Grandmaster title with the same qualifications as her male counterpart. She was also the first woman to qualify for the Men’s World Championship cycle. Susan became the #1 woman player in the world at the age of 15 and has remained in the top 3 for 23 straight years."

Much of this is not true.

She was not the first woman to qualify for the Men's World Championship cycle. Pia Cramling was. Pia Cramling qualified from the Championship of Sweden and played in the zonal tournament in about 1981.

It is true that Susan should have been allowed to qualify after finishing tied for second in the 1986 Hungarian Championship, but Hungary would not allow her to play, sending Istvan Csom instead. I was personally involved in this incident, so I know all about it. I agree that Polgar was cheated and she should have been allowed to play in the zonal. However, in any case she would not have been the first woman to qualify as Cramling had qualified five years before her.

Also, she has not been in the top three women in the world for 23 straight years because she is not in the top three now. She has been largely inactive since 1992. Currently, the top three women in the world are Judit Polgar, Humpy Koneru and Pia Cramling. Susan Polgar is not listed since she has not played since 2004. Before 2004, she had not played in 8 years since 1996. Naturally, during these long periods when she is not playing, she cannot claim to be one of the "Top Three Players" in the world.

http://www.fide.com/ratings/top.phtml?list=women

Now that she has been elected, one wonders whether these false claims will appear in Chess Life magazine, where they will be the subject of ridicule. Sam Sloan 00:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

So? How is any of that relevant to her Wikipedia article? Peter Ballard 10:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Polgar should have qualified for the zonal in Warsaw in 1986. She tied for second in the 1986 Hungarian Championship with Istvan Csom. It had been announced that the top three were in. The newspapers in Budapest announced in great headlines that Polgar had qualified for the zonal by finishing in the top 3.

However, at that time, Sandor Serenyi, President of the Hungarian Chess Federation, was out of town. When he got back, he decreed that there had been a mistake in calculating the number of players that Hungary could send to the zonal. Hungary was only entitled to two players, not three. As Susan had a half point less in Berger tie-breaking points, Csom would go but not Susan, declared Serenyi.

As I was in Budapest when this happened, I asked Csom to agree to play a match with Susan for the spot. Csom immediately agreed, saying that he was not especially interested in playing in the zonal anyway. However, later, in Dubai, during the chess Olympiad, Csom, with Adorjan as his translator, told me that he had changed his mind and was not willing to play a match with Polgar for the Zonal slot. Thus, Polgar never played in the zonal.

Cramling had played in the European Zonal back in 1980 or 1981 in a previous cycle. Thus, Cramling was the first woman ever to qualify for the World Championship Cycle.

Actually, Susan never got to play in the world championship cycle, so the issue is whether to count the incident in 1986 when, in my opinion, she should have been allowed to play but never got to play.Sam Sloan 20:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The normal rule is that one cannot prove a negative. Nevertheless, it is possible to prove a positive and she has not done so.

Why is it that none of her claims are supported by the leading authorities on the game of chess? Why is it that none of these great accomplishments have been reported by ChessBase, The Week in Chess, New In Chess, Inside Chess, Europe Eschech or even by Chess Life magazine?

Let us make a list and see where is the proof:

"Grandmaster Susan Polgar is the winner of four Women's World Championships"

When and where were those four Women's World Championships played? Why does The Week in Chess only mention one? Why is there no mention of these other three woman's world chess championships in any reputable chess publication?

"She was also the first woman to qualify for the Men's World Championship cycle."

When and where did this happen? What are the dates of this event? Why is there no mention of this in The Week in Chess, in Chess Base or in any other reputable chess publication.

"Susan .... has remained in the top 3 for 23 straight years."

Where is there evidence of this? Why is there no mention of this on the FIDE website? Why is she not even currently listed in the top ten in the world by any reputable source?

Note that I have left out one of her other claims. That is the claim where she says, "She was the first woman to break the gender barrier to earn the Grandmaster title with the same qualifications as her male counterpart."

I happen to agree with that one. However, others are disputing that point. I also understand that others are disputing her claim to hold the world record for simultaneous exhibitions.

We have long ago given up asking Paul Truong about his claim to have won 11 National Championships. He has refused to tell us when and where he won those national championships or even in which country he won them. We have a letter from the Vietnam Chess Association stating that he never won the national championship of that country. I have also recently acquired every issue of Chess Life magazine since 1976 and there is no mention in any of those magazines of Paul Truong ever winning a national championship in this country, the USA.

Why are not Susan Polgar and Paul Truong being asked about these matters, especially since they are now on the board? Sam Sloan 02:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, what has that to do with the article? The article should just present the information correctly. Peter Ballard 03:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I swear to God if I see another Wikipedian say such an ignorant thing as "what is the relevancy" when a person is talking about the person IN the article, you need hot lead poured down your throat. Also, in case any of you need to go to school, because you have reached such a high level of ignorance that you (unlike me since I've been here before 2003) you need to understand the point of a definitional arguement. Don't share the enthymeme? Oh, I'm sorry you're an idiot. I'm trying to say that you are proving the historical accuracy and variables that constitute Susan Polgar as an entity via evidence. Please, please, please don't act like a dumby. p.s. Remind me to kill these bots. --Cyberman (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
And, if any of you sophists want to stand up, how about talking about the "doctorate's" she earned? --Cyberman (talk) 23:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
And perhaps if you stay here another five years you might even learn to spell. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to pursue quarrels or push opinions. (Sloan doesn't grasp NPOV, but you should.) If you can find a reputable published source in which Polgar "claims to have earned doctorates," you can include it. If you can find a reputable published source claiming the first source is wrong, you can include that two. This is nursery level. Eddore (talk) 06:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
More sophistry with if-then clauses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.77.125.21 (talk • contribs) April 15, 2008
Polgar has visited Lubbock in the past to meet with Texas Tech officials and the Ramirez Charter School Rooks chess team, an outreach program of the Knight Raiders. She spoke at Texas Tech's undergraduate commencement ceremonies Saturday, where the institute was announced. During the first commencement ceremony, she received an honorary doctoral degree of human letters.
"Ms. Polgar is a good friend of Texas Tech and our Knights Raiders chess team," said President Jon Whitmore during the commencement ceremony. "She is also one of the very best chess players in the world." - http://www.depts.ttu.edu/communications/news/stories/07-05-Polgar-institute.php
By the way, this is not a nursery. There is no such thing as NPOV. Everything has bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.77.125.21 (talk • contribs) April 15, 2008
If you really believe that, then almost by definition you are unfit to write here. The statement is nonsense anyway. What's your bias on the Axiom of Choice or the Second Law of Thermodynamics? Eddore (talk) 06:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nuisance suit

User:Rocksanddirt has restored the reference to Sam Sloan's latest lawsuit. I'm not going to start an edit war by reverting it again, but I'd like to point out a few things. 1) The allegations made are potentially libelous until the matter is adjudicated. 2) It's unlikely the matter will ever be adjudicated, since the lawsuit is a rambling farrago that will most likely be dismissed either under Rule 8 or for failure to state a cause for which relief may be granted. 3) Sam Sloan is a vexatious litigant, who has filed dozens (maybe hundreds) of frivolous lawsuits. (One of them has been dragging on for more than 25 years.) Is it proper to let him use Wikipedia to get publicity for this sort of thing? If I were to file a pro se lawsuit against Madonna for obstruction of weasels, would that merit inclusion in the article about her? In my opinion, the earliest point at which this matter should be mentioned in an encyclopedia article (as opposed to a news report) would be after Sloan has served all the named defendants. (Which, based on his track record, probably won't happen.)

The lawsuit was sufficiently newsworthy that it was written up in The New York Times. The coverage of it here should be limited to the neutral, verifiable facts. The lawsuit is part of the public record, and it is not libelous to state factually what it is about. Obviously, with such a sensitive matter, the article should confine itself to what has been reported in major news sources. Opinions about the merits of the suit or the probability of success should be included only if a reputable source has reported them. Sam Sloan's website is not such a source, but The New York Times would be. Marc Shepherd 01:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd also note that showing up in a newspaper does not mean it should show up in Wikipedia. See WIKI:NOT#NEWS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warren Dew (talk • contribs) 19:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This page is for discussing the article, not personal differences

I have removed a lengthy post by User:Sam Sloan. This page is for discussing the article, not personal differences. Peter Ballard 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)