Talk:Survivorman

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This is a talk page for discussion of the article about Survivorman. It is not for discussion about the program itself, unless that discussion involves improving the article. In particular, it is not for discussion about whether or not Survivorman is a "good" or "bad" program; or finding out what "this and that" are; or what will happen after "something".

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Assessment comments

1 Survivorman theme
2 Survivorman or Man vs. wild?
3 Not always alone?
4 Argument for Keeping Fan Forum Link
5 Survivor tips
6 Fair use rationale for Image:SurvivormanLogo.JPG
7 Fair use rationale for Image:Survivorman dvd cover.jpg
8 Article intro
9 forum source
10 Merge Stranded?
11 Labrador Episode
12 Name
13 Season Three?

[edit] Survivorman theme

What is the name of the Survivorman theme?

The theme was composed by Les Stroud himself and can be downloaded at http://www.lesstroudonline.com/downloads.html -Ccscott 01:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survivorman or Man vs. wild?

Is the real reason they made "Man vs. wild" to be a replacement for this show?

I hope not, MVW is nothing compared to this show. It's so fake compared to this one.

Thanks,

OMG, that is exactly I thought from first episode I saw of MVW, it sucks he walks around all the time and its just clearly staged and with a cameraman.

Faris b 03:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's exactly a fair judgment. It's no secret that Grylls uses a camera crew (he says so right off at the beginning of the show), and the styles of the two shows are pretty different. Grylls does a lot more "running, jumping, climbing trees" than Stroud does (and seems to take more unnecessary risks), so I don't imagine that carrying around all that extra equipment himself would work very well for him. If he did, he'd probably end up looking more like a guy who's just trying to copy Les Stroud's format. To be honest, I prefer Stroud's method of presentation and the way he comes off as more of an "everyman" rather than a specialist or ex-military type, but I think you have to give Grylls his credit too. intooblv 02:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Read the Talk:Man vs Wild discussion thread about the subject. The show is verifiably fake. -- Rei 01:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Rei loves to call the show fake. And he's right! The show is fake and everything takes place in a computer. On Man Vs. Wild you're watching very very expensive CG. Utils 18:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

MvW is to "Live Free or Die Hard" as Survivorman is to "Fm 21-76, Army Survival Manual." Survivorman sparked the interest, MvW is cleaning up. Discovery seems more interested in lively characters than intellectual content. Case in point: American Chopper (Senior & Junior yelling), Overhaulin (the stealing gag), Dirty Jobs (how can I be grossed out today?)...Discovery has sold their soul for ratings and it's worked - more power to 'em, I guess...but to call MvW a survival show is a joke. There are better mountain climbers, skydivers, soldiers, climbers, & survivalists - but Bear Grylls is competent in each one and a good presenter. John Wayne didn't need to be tough, but he looked the part and people sincerely believed it. LostCause 23:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

{ I really feel that both shows has "fake" elements. But survivalman is more likely to admit his failures. Survivorman has elements that are obviously fake. Using an aluminum coke can shined with a chocolate bar to start a fire can be done. But passively leaving it on the ground and starting a fire in late afternoon/evening sun (as evident by his shadow) is fake. It could be that he started the fire earlier with the can, and "simulated" it later. But the process of using such a small and imperfect parabolic mirrow such as a coke can bottom requires alot of fine motor control to focus the weak beam of light, and active blowing to create a tinder large enough to ignite a flame. My second criticism is the wimpy fish weir he built with broken little sticks that couldn't catch or hold squat, and baiting it with cooked frog parts.... How in the heck would a turtle be dumb enough to walk into the a contraption is beyond me, except for the fact that he placed it in their to make the show more entertaining. In both shows, nice survival skills are taught. However, I wish they would actually utilize REAL event, and admits to REAL failures... Rather than faking skills that they do not have. } —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.205.61 (talk • contribs)

You have provided no evidence that two things are "obviously" fake beyond your own speculation that he couldn't have done it or faked it. It's your word versus his and you have done nothing to prove that he faked it or it was impossible. If you have solid proof that it's faked then feel free to add it if you can cite it. Until then, making speculative claims adds nothing to the discussion about improving the article. Also, if you watch enough of Survivorman you will realize that Les fesses up to plenty of his failures and problems that he has to deal with. -- Gogo Dodo 08:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

{I did not say "obviously" fake. Simply, saying I "feel" that it is fake in a few circumstances. I do respect Les for showing the realistic side to survival - and appreciate it. I do feel that he does have to spice the show a little. Only he would know - since he is the actor, producer, and camera man. I don't have anything except for speculation and my own personal experience with fire starting, hunting, fishing, and trapping. It is likely Les is a better trained survivorist than I am, but, when a show has to be made, some time a real survivorman might have to spice things up a little! And it it is just my opinion. Isn't this area called "DISCUSSION"? } —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.47.205.61 (talk) 03:29:02, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

"Survivorman has elements that are obviously fake"

discussing section is for discussing ways to improve article. 216.190.185.20 23:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this qualifies as "fake" but in the Survivorman Sonoran desert episode the footage of desert animals is shot mostly at the Sonoran Desert Museum, a zoo in Tucson. The Mexican wolf is clearly the wolf habitat at the zoo. Also the lizard shot is a spiny tailed iguana which are not native to Arizona and only live at the zoo in Tucson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacbenj (talk • contribs)

Do you have proof that it was filmed at the zoo from a reliable source? If you don't, then it's all speculative. -- Gogo Dodo 00:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that Man vs. Wild has much more fake elments to it, that Survivorman does. Survivorman just seems alot more realistic than MVW does. Granted, some elements of the show may be faked, but that is to be expected. -- StickRail1 4 April 2008

[edit] Not always alone?

I noticed, in the episode where Stroud is in the Canadian Arctic, he seems to disturb something while trying to light the fire, glances over his shoulder and says, as if to someone else, "oh, sorry," and what sounds like another voice can be heard briefly before the cut to a different camera angle. In addition, there are extreme long shots of (presumably) him crossing large expanses of wilderness that seem impossibly difficult for him to capture himself. While I believe he's truly alone out there most of the time, it seems as if there's a crew just a few miles away filming these long shots and checking up on him from time to time. Does anyone know for certain if that's true or not? ChadScott 07:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Stroud talked about this in the special. He literally had to go back to get the camera, even for the long shots. I'll have to watch the Arctic episode again, but sometimes I think he is just talking to the camera. --71.112.117.81 17:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I watched that episode and heard no voice. He talks to his cameras a lot. So do people with video cameras in real survival situations. I remember seeing a show about a guy who was stranded on Hawaiian lava flows (I Shouldn't Be Alive, perhaps?). When he decided to destroy his video camera to start a fire, he said it was like killing a friend. It was his source of solace, being out there alone. -- Rei 01:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Besides being a survival expert, Stroud is also a documentarian. He knows that he needs that he needs so many minutes of him talking to the camera to edit down for the final show. I've read that one rule of thumb is you need to shoot from six to ten minutes of tape for every minute you use.

In the Behind The Scenes special he talked about setting up the camera for a long shot, then starting the recording, then walking the shot, then going back to get the camera. He also needs to rewind the tape and check the shot before he moves on. Some of the things that go wrong, he explained, are cutting of part of his head in the shot, and the ever frustrating forgetting to push the record button.

Having tried a few of his shots in my backyard, I can tell you it's a lot of work. I cannot imagine the pressure he must feel doing this in a real survival situation while alone.

VideoRanger2525 11:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

There was an episode where he was in the Rocky Mountains, and he had a camera set up at least half a mile away. The camera moved, and then you see Les walking down the mountain side a good half mile away. Did he really set it up and walk all the way back up for the shot, or is he not alone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.240.223 (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You have made an accusation, but have no proof that he does not do what he says he does. Yes, he really does setup those long shots himself. He has several times during different episodes said that he had to walk back to fetch the camera. As for camera movement, it was probably the wind moving it. -- Gogo Dodo 18:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Argument for Keeping Fan Forum Link

I have undone the deletion of the external link to the fan forum Arctic Cove. I believe this discussion forum has an argument for a certain amount of authority. The administrator of the forum, Trooper Max, has claimed to know Les Stroud (Survivorman) personally and has many times posted first hand correspondence directly related to the television series. Also, the FAQ on the forum, comprised of member questions to Les Stroud, is a direct source of official Survivorman FAQ and has received official replies from the subject of this article. On these grounds I feel that the Arctic Cove forums, while technically unofficial, are in many ways authoritative and deserve a link on the Survivorman wiki article. -- Anon User 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. It may have links to people within the series, but forums are prohibited in point #10 at WP:EL. The forum also seems really, really slow. There are only three sections out of eleven that have more than 20 messages and most haven't been updated in quite a while. It doesn't even produce any sort of information at Alexa. This indicates that it isn't even all that popular among the fans. I really see no reason to keep the forum given the guidelines and the information I've found out about it. If there's something I'm not seeing or missing, please let me know. --13² 13:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survivor tips

This section should probably be removed. It violates the policy that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I brought it up here before doing so since it would be such a major change and I wanted to get other opinions on it first and see if there are any ideas on how to revamp the section instead of just removing it all together. --13² 14:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with it's removal for the reason you stated. -- Gogo Dodo 18:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Since it's been a few days and this is the only reply I've gotten, I'll just assume others agree with me or just don't care. I will remove the section for now. If there are any arguments to keep the information or possibly revamp the section, please leave a message here, state your position, and gain consensus before re-adding it. Thank you. --13² 00:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SurvivormanLogo.JPG

Image:SurvivormanLogo.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Survivorman dvd cover.jpg

Image:Survivorman dvd cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 04:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article intro

The top of the Survivorman article talks about Les by saying,

"But due to this he takes no risks and is incredibly boring. Also Bear Grylls (star of man vs. wild) has much more knowledge and skill when it comes to surviving. "

Anyone who has seen both shows knows neither point is true. In fact, all the following info below this first section supports the notion that Les might save your life, while Bear will probably get you killed. I'm new to Wiki, how do you edit this top portion of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewbork (talk • contribs)

It was removed as vandalism. -- Gogo Dodo 04:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Besides, it would seem fairer to describe guy as "somebody who can starve for seven days in any environment", or "somebody who can demonstrate basic wilderness survival in the Amazon if you're lost at a riverbank with a knife, match, tinder, whistle, spear, blowgun, canoe, and a spare house (except for starving as usual, severe foot fungus, diarrhea from drinking unboiled water, until running away from a jaguar and giving up...) 204.186.60.29 00:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I really feel, after watching both, that much of Survivorman's scenarios are odd, and seem to be staged. He expends way too much energy setting up fancy camera shots and screwing around with flutes. He never really gets anywhere, and just seems to show you how to wait around for help until you die, if perchance you are left with the odd host of survival tools he just happens to get stranded with. Bear, by having a non-interference camera crew, shows you a more realistic way of getting out of somewhere alive. Example, Les happens to have a gun, but there's no game to be had. Bear makes a deadly throwing stick and kills a rabbit. Bear shows you how to create a makeshift lean-to; Les luckily, happens upon an abandoned cabin with some antibacterial hand sanitizer. Oh, and then Les happens upon a hut that natives told him about in another episode. I really, really, cannot believe anybody but canadians have any reason to back up Les over Bear. Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.5.111 (talk) 02:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/bearwiki/Evidence Rtbh99 06:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the Talk page for Survivorman, not Man vs. Wild. -- Gogo Dodo 07:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

i know its just i cant let the survivorman fanboy inside me stand down sometimes Rtbh99 05:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless you have proof that things were staged in Survivorman, your comment was not particularly helpful. As for the cabin, if you listen carefully, you will know that the Canadian government setup those cabins for lost travelers. Yes, it was lucky that the hand sanitizer was there, but if you are implying that the cabin was a setup, then you are wrong. Either way, see the comment above: this Talk page is not for comparisons between Survivorman and Man vs. Wild. -- Gogo Dodo 07:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Reading the linked article (http://www.outdoors-411.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6576&sid=d357dfd92c742193ebf687da0b1a8377) where it discusses Les being fined for illegal filming, it seems that his crew is much closer to him than he leads the audience to believe, and perhaps he really is not stranded if they are sitting in a camp so close to him? GCD1 14:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Les hasn't said anything that I can remember that led me to believe that the team was very far away. It is only logical that they would be within a safe distance, just in case something were to go wrong. He probably has a radio with him in case of such an occurrence, as he did in that once episode, wahchomacallit. But I don't know. Either way, there is no evidence of anyone staging anything. 4.231.133.198 00:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Les carries a satphone, and he talks about his safety crew all the time, although he doesnt talk TO his safety crew. In the Kalahari desert episode, he just walks over to them on day seven. The idea behind this was that he feels the isolation of being in a survival situation, but is less likely to be killed in this inherently dangerous undertaking. Besides, could you imagine the insurance requirements necessary for a show like this? Desolvent 14:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] forum source

The source is unreliable. It fails WP:RS. Maybe archive.com has a copy of the old page? In any case, if the content is impossible to verify (WP:V) with reliable source (WP:RS) then it aught to be removed... right? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 06:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

When I originally updated the reference from the original to the forum link I did an exhaustive search including of the Internet Archive, the National Park Service and several other caches with no luck - it seems some content on the NPS wesite becomes unavailable after a weeks or so and no archive source caught it. As per WP:CITE, such dead links still meet WP:RS but I choose to change the link to the next best available link which still had the text which happened to be a forum post. However, in addition to this I should have marked the link dead as per Wikipedia:Dead external links to avoid any confusion but another editor has kindly done this for me. Ccscott 08:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that this information is completely unverifiable. I'm going to see if its published somewhere else. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I was able to find the original. Who's the man now dawg? :) ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Good job! Ccscott 16:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Stranded?

I added some info for the show Stranded, but from my research even Stroud himself refers to Stranded as a pilot of Survivorman. I see no reason not to merge the article. Thoughts, opinions? FantajiFan (talk) 01:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that rationale, I would have no problem with merging. Considering how short the article is (and probably would be for the foreseeable future), it might fare better as a section in Survivorman. — VoxLuna

^T / C 21:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I would only say move it if it can be verified that this was the pilot for Survivorman. A link to Stroud saying as much would be fine. -- JT ^Holla! 01:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

if anything stranded should be merged with the Les Stroud page NOT the Survivorman page. while i have been waiting to see Stranded it is NOT a part of the survivorman series, much like the other things that Les Stroud has done like "snowshoes and solitude" or his music. I dont think it should be part of the surivorman page. the "how to survive natural disasters" show for discovery that was hosted by Les and refers to the survivorman series could be considered a spin off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.153.38.210 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it should be merged. From http://www.lesstroudonline.com/shoponline/ "Stranded with Les Stroud - DVD: Features Les Stroud surviving in the summer and winter. See where Survivorman began." Granted, he doesn't call it a "pilot."Agentlame (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Labrador Episode

Does anyone know if the sled dogs, which he let loose, made it? We saw how everything slushed up the next day and he (and even the safety crew) had to be taken out by helicopter. I thought it was suspicious we got no confirmation of the dogs' well being at the end of the episode. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.179.34 (talk) 05:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Several episodes mention that the crew has to come back and "clean-up" after Les. This includes taking down his shelters and generally restoring things to where they were before Les was at the location. I don't think they would just leave the dogs out there, I'm sure the crew found and returned them or they themselves returned to home. Remember in this episode, the lead dog kept wanting to return home against Les' directions. Also, Les constantly mentions that he does not enjoy harming animals, except in situations of survival. I doubt he would let those dogs die. Milonica (talk) 07:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Les's blog explained that he had planned to let them go and that their owner was actually a few miles down the trial waiting for them. The dogs were definitely ok.

"The dogs pulled me fantastically…. until the moment I stepped off the sled and they kept going!

Ok – truth be told – I knew it was coming. I cut them loose along the trail and they will keep going until they meet up with their owner somewhere. This was a planned happening to illustrate what pretty much every musher that ever lived has had happen to them at least once. You make one small mistake and the dogs take off and you are left stranded in the middle of nowhere. There are stories of dogs traveling a hundred miles into town from where they got away from their master." (from http://www.lesstroudonline.com/blog/?p=13)

71.169.5.151 (talk) 00:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Through the article both names, Les and Stroud, are used in an interchangeable way. I think it would be better for consistency to either use Les or Stroud on all the article and replace all occurrences of douchebag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AV-2 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Season Three?

Does anyone know if there's going to be a Season 3? --Tocino 06:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

les's blog starts that they are working out the final details for season3 right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.153.38.210 (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)