Talk:Survey of English Dialects

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[edit] Dabs

Anybody know wheher:

Lozleader 12:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's Eccleston, Lancashire at SD5217 = 53°38m49s N 2°43m34s W on the River Yarrow (Lancashire). Symkyn 11:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Have a look in a sec: also, need to know if Sutton, Sussex is in west or east. Epa101 18:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's Denton, Dover

Wark on Tyne

I would think that the Sutton is in West Sussex, as it was later compared to a West Sussex accent, but can't be sure. With Eccleston, I don't know, and the two are so close together that I think that we're unlikely to find out. If I had to guess, I'd opt for the one near Chorley, as the S.E.D. avoided urban location such as Eccleston, St. Helens, but it did have some urban ones as well. More research needed. Epa101 18:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there some kind of dot map available? 22:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates, etcetera

I've been doing some research in The Times archives (and elsewhere): the field work for the survey was in fact carried out in the 1940s and 1950s. Stanley Ellis appears to have been the principal field worker, but the survey was directed by Harold Orton. Some of the recordings arre apparently online via the British Library [1]. Lozleader 22:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From "The Times"

Here are synopses of the articles I have found:

  • December 13, 1954 Research Dialect - Tape recordings in the villages. Preparation began "8 years ago" under dircetion of Professor Harold Orton. Field work began "in earnest" in 1949. 2 field workers each week go to a seaparate village of 400-500 people. Over 100 places covered so far: mostly in the North.
  • September 5, 1959 Research into dialects - First isssues of English linguistic atlas soon (Summary of papers at British Association meeting). Professor Orton detailed findings in 288 locations by 8 workers. The results were to be published as a linguistic atlas in 4 major volumes. The first volume was to be published "soon" in 10 parts.
  • November 1, 1962 Where a snack is nummick - 16-year survey of dialect. The first part of the first volume was published. Volume I to cover "the six northern counties and the Isle of Man", Vol 2 "the west Midland counties", Vol.3 "the east Midland counties" and Vol.4 "the southern counties". There was also to be a linguistic atlas.

At the time of the publication, Professor Orton recalled the beginning of the project dated from 1946 when he planned it with Professor Eugen Dieth of the University of Zurich (who died in 1956). The prepartion of a questionaire bagan in 1947, and it was printed in 1952 with 1,097 questions. Subsidiary questions brought the total to 1,300.

All the questions concerned farming, and the field work was carried out by 9 field-workers (mostly Leeds graduates). The interviewees were all aged over 60.

An (unnamed) field-worker described how he had spent 6 years toring 118 locations in a caravan.

  • May 27, 1963 Emergence of new dialect. Professor Orton had been supervising field work for "11 years". The second of four three volumes was about to be published.
  • May 28, 1964 Research in the Humanities. The Survey was garnted £1,000 by the British Academy.
  • May 30, 1968 British Academy awards The Survey of English Dialects was awarded a further grant of £1,000.
  • September 17, 1969 Dialect survey needs cash The "section" of the survey covering the midlands and East Anglia was published, covering 24 counties. 313 villages had been surveyed, and field workers claimed they had to dress in old clothes to gain the confidence of elederly villagers.

£45,000 had been spent on the survey over 23 years, and 10,000 more was needed to complete publication of "12 basic books" by 1971. The University of Leeds was no longer able to finance the survey, and it was feared it might be taken over by a US university.

  • September 8, 1970 Eighty-eight ways of saying left-handed. The ground work for the linguistic atlas was completed. The field work had been carried out from 1950 to 1961 with 404,000 items of information from 313 locations, each approximately 15 miles apart. Once the presentation of the maps, of which there likely to be 2,000, was worked out, it would be ready for publication. Professor Orton hoped to find a publisher soon.
  • October 7, 1972 Is it nessy to make a donkey out of that lovely nirrup?. In a review of English Dialects: An Introduction, it was noted that the "great Dieth-Orton Survey of English Dialects planned in 1946 and conducted from the University of Leeds, has at present ceased full time publication and field work for lack of funds".
  • October 18, 1972. Stewart F Sanderson, Director of the Institute of Dialect and Folk Life Studies at the University of Leeds wrote to the editor to say that they had received a grant from the Leverhulme Trust to allow them to begin a three year editorial programme to publish a linguistic atlas of the survey. Other activities of the survey were continuing "albeit slowly for lack of staff and funds".
  • January 6, 1975 Saving gibble-fisted mawkin from extinction. A Word Geography of England was expected to be published by the end of the month. This was the 14th publication as the result of field work carried out in 1950 to 1961, and 13 years of linguistic analysis. 13 volumes of regional dialects had been previously been produced, using a highly specialised phonetic shorthand unintelligible to the general reader. The new book would be written in standard English.

The next project was to be the publication of the Linguistic Atlas, made possible by a grant of £11,900 from the Leverhulme Trust.

  • March 14, 1975 Obituary of Harold Orton. Notes that the 13 volumes were known as the "basic material".
  • September 6, 1978 Review of The Linguistic Atlas of England, edited by Harold Orton, Stewart Sanderson and John Widdowson.

Lozleader 23:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


Thank you very much. I've noticed that a few extra places hav been added to the list. Where did you find out about the others? I had taken the names off of the Collect Britain website and the Yorkshire Dialect Society map. I'd be intrigued to know if there were any more that I've missed. Epa101 21:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Not me: I haven't added any places! You might pick through the page history and find out who did what...Lozleader 23:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I added Bamford (Derbyshire) because I thought I remembered reading something which mentioned it. I couldn't find what it was I read before, but I did find this (PDF), which mentions both Bamford and Youlgr(e)ave as survey locations.--JHJ 09:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
There's still one Derbyshire location missing. There are maps in David Crystal's language encyclopedias which show some of the data, and there are 7 locations in Derbyshire: based on the maps Db1 is Charlesworth, Db2 Bamford, Db4 Youlgr(e)ave, Db5 Stonebroom, Db6 Kniveton and Db7 Sutton on the Hill, Db3 being somewhere near Buxton. I presume a full list can be found in the Linguistic Atlas of England.--JHJ 19:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll have another look for some more. Epa101 09:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You guys might want to have a look at one of the works I included in the Bibliography. The Introduction to the Basic Material might be of interest for instance: Orton, Harold (1962). Survey of English Dialects (A): Introduction. Leeds: E. J. Arnold & Son. Lots and lots of background information there. Thanks to all who contribute to this entry. I wish it had existed when I started to write my master's thesis. Symkyn 10:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] missing source

One field worker gathering material claimed they had to dress in old clothes to gain the confidence of elderly villagers. That kind of information needs a source, or else it is not fit for an encyclopedia. Symkyn 14:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

  • It came from The Times and is now sourced. Hope that will do. Lozleader 09:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
The information is not particularly relevant or "encyclopedic" (if you prefer), however I guess it is okay and together with a source it's perfect. Thanks. Symkyn 10:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embedded List

The list is great, however, it probably deserves an entry of its own, something like List of localities included in the Survey of English Dialects, cf. Wikipedia:List_guideline. I'm a newbie, though, therefore I'd prefer to wait until somebody agrees to my suggestion (yeah, yeah, I know Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages). Symkyn 19:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fieldworkers

The names of the nine fieldworkers are probably not relevant for the entry, if anybody ought to disagree s/he is free to copy them into the article:

  • Stanley Ellis (118 localities in NE England and Eastern Midlands, 1951-1958)
  • Peter Wright (37 in Yorkshire, 1948-1952)
  • Peter H. Gibson (11 in Staffordshire, 1953-1955)
  • Donald R. Sykes (31 in West Midlands. 1954-1956)
  • John T. Wright (43 plus 2 shared in the South-West, 1955-1958)
  • Averil H. Playford (12 in Leicestershire and Rutland, 1955-1957)
  • W. Nelson Francis (13 in Norfolk, 1956-1957)
  • Michael V. Barry (32 plus 2 shared in the South-West, 1957-1959)
  • Howard N. Berntsen (9 in Essex, 1960-1961)

From Orton 1962: 33. I noticed that it doesn't add up with the 311 localities. Has anyone got an idea why? Symkyn 09:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, a certain Miss Marie Haslam made the field-recording for Wheathampstead (Hrt3) as part of her work for her Honours Degree. And the field-recordings for Cross Keys (Mon4) and Llanfrechfa (Mon5) were made by Mr. David Parry. But for some reasons they are not counted as official fieldworkers, but they are mentioned in the footnotes only. (Orton 1962: 16) Symkyn 08:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the numbers looks like one piece of evidence that is best disguarded. Firstly, it says that Peter Wright did 37 in Yorkshire when only 34 Yorkshire locations were taken. Also, Stanley Ellis definitely did outside of the North-East and the East Midlands. He did most of them in West Yorkshire, and also several in the south of England.

You're absolutely right. However, the information is so complex (especially for Stanley Ellis who did more than one third of the Survey) that the information is on some level correct in its tendencies. I should have added mostly before the geographical information. Symkyn 06:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

However, we could just name the nine fieldworkers without detailing which sites they did. Epa101 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Great idea Symkyn 06:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map? What ought to be on it?

I could supply a map. I wrote a *.php script that produces maps from simple *.txt input files. It would take a couple of days to get it up and running (I used it for a paper a few months ago). You contributors can basically choose what ought to be on it (I indicated in brackets how easy it would be to create such a map). Some suggestions:

  • The names of the localities... (+)
  • Which fieldworker did what... (ø)
  • Both combined (ø) ¡ Probably the most encyclopedic one !
  • Paradigms of to be (the topic of my paper, therefore +)
  • A word map with isoglosses or symbols or both. e.g. pigsty (-)
  • "Maps are superfluous and non-encyclopedic"

Have a pick... Symkyn 07:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like maps with all of that information on. I would be very glad if you could do that. I'm afraid that I don't have a scanner. It also gives you a bit of exposure for your hard work on the topic. Epa101 21:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The map contains only the names of the localities now, because the information about the fieldworkers was too much work for the moment. Maybe I'll add it later. Please don't hestiate to inform me, if the map contains any errors. I used the names given in Orton (1962), they sometimes differ slightly. Symkyn 08:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The map is great! Thanks! Only one problem, which I'm sure was not your fault but whoever created the map. Leeds seems to be in the wrong place; it ought to be about thirty miles further south. I found this quite amusing, as the B.B.C. once did a map for the miners' strike that put Leeds in the place where Grimethorpe is. There seems to be some sort of curse on Leeds. Epa101 17:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it was my fault. Since I had to get my old php script up and running again I used out-dated input material from the very early stages of the project. Later, I corrected the position of the localities — and I'm glad to say that the printed version of my paper got the right positions (It has not been marked yet, so your astute observation made me a little nervous at first). Now, Leeds ought to be approximately right. Symkyn 08:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1980s Stanley Ellis programme

According to "Talking for Britain", Simon Elmes, p.198-199, the B.B.C. made a programme where Stanley Ellis returned to rural areas to see how dialects were surviving. The book quotes an East Riding farmer, who still used lots of great phrases such as "By gaw!" I would love to see this programme. Unfortunately, the book gives no references whatsoever, and I can't find anything about it on the internet.

I have just joined the Yorkshire Dialect Society. I hope that this might bring some good networks to me. Epa101 09:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need to disambiguate Kingston, Dorset

The article refers to a survey at Kingston in Dorset (Do5). Trouble is, there are two villages called Kingston in Dorset (one near Corfe Castle on the Isle of Purbeck, the other in North Dorset). I've just turned Kingston, Dorset into a dab page, but there is no clue in this article as to which village the survey was done in. I've therefore left the link pointing at the dab page. -- Chris j wood 14:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nettleswell in Essex?

In a book Cockney Dialect and Slang (1981), it lists five sites from within Greater London: Hackney - check Harmondsworth - check Walton-on-the-Hill - check Farningham - check Nettleswell in Essex - no sign anywhere of this having been a site. Strange that a book written several years after the S.E.D. would still mention it. Anyone else know anything about this? Epa101 (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)