User talk:Supplements/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia, as you did in Gastric bypass diet. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. ViridaeTalk 02:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I havent had a propper look at yet yet, it seems you have imporved the article so I won't nominate it for deletion. However can you have a lo9ok at these resources and edit the article appropriately. Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout, WP:MOS. Please also note that if ant any time I think the article is just there to sell your product/promote your webpage, I will be nominating it for deletion. ViridaeTalk 00:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You can take the {tl|prod}} tag off. In the future can you please add new topic to the bottom of my talk page? ViridaeTalk 02:49, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

Chemical peel

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We appreciate your contributions to the Chemical peel article, but we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material. Perhaps you would like to rewrite the article in your own words. For more information, take a look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Happy editing! Irongargoyle 16:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Irongargoyle

This is my article from our site www.sleepingswan.com/ I did some research on this http://www.skinsite.com/ in the web archives the page did not exist when we had this article up, actually they copied our content, [[1]] This is dated 2005 Same date for the www.skinsite.com [[2]]

[[3]] How you see is the site is in another launage but I went to the recent version and used it as a guide to find the page the content is suppose to be on. it isn't there. The page did not exist on this site at that time. This is proof we are not copyrighting it from this site.Supplements

We pulled this information from our website www.sleepingswan.com/

[[4]]

Please take another look at Chemical peel. I feel you will see this is my work and not taken from another source

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Sorry this has been fixed must issed this bt accident


Response to Dr. Wes Gastric Bypass Surgery

Dr. Wes First let me say I am honored to meet you through this wonderful website.
I have read and agree with you and will replace the nutritional deficiencies topic and I would like to include most of the information you put on my talk page as it really should have been there anyway.

  • I have to disagree with some of your thoughts as well, espically the 3 meals a day, this has been proven incorrect and will lead to nutritional deficiencies you so describe here.
  • I welcome any studies to the contray as I have provided information links to add creditable evidence to the contray. I also feel the Gastric bypass diet should be included with the article for the below reason.
  • 3 meals will not keep a person from losing muscle weight. As you said there is a rapid weight loss and a problem I have encountered with this is the amount of muscle lost is not acceptable due to improper nutrition and protein intake.

GP Patient to lose more % of muscle than fat during this rapid weight loss process from not enough protein intake.
Lets say a woman's weight is 300 lbs she is 60% bodyfat or 180lbs of fat and 120lbs of muscle. Her protein intake should be minimum of 60 grams of protein digested or she will lose muscle due to muscle wasting.
Losing 1 lb of muscle will cost this person to lose the ability to burn 30-50 calories a day. Every pound of muscle is very important to these people losing it will cause lasting problems with their weight if they lose too musch muscle.
I am sure the rate of protein absorption decreases, due to the surgery, so actually if she ingested 60 grams she may only absorb 40g from the 60 grams of protein, this will not support the muscle tissue, thus [Muscle wasting] begins. I know this link pertains to HIV but the overall nutrition is the same loss of proper food intake will cause muscle wasting to occur in anybody.
I see muscle wasting over and over in GP patients this is why I highly recommend 6 small meals a day with a protein supplement as well as a liquid vitamin.
It is a proven fact smaller meals throughout the day will in fact promote weight loss. This approach provides a constant level of nutrients to the blood, so sugar levels don't go up and down and the urge to overeat is reduced. Eating this way is what all diabetes are encouraged to do. * http://www.ndep.nih.gov/diabetes/MealPlanner/en_intro.htm Recommends 5 meals a day I would assume most if not all your patients already have type 2 diabetes.

  • I have worked with many GP who are at loss as to why they remain like jell, 120 lighter or more but a body fat % as high as before the surgery. They lose the weight but remain obese due to the fact muscle drives the body metabolism, without muscle it is impossible to lose fat.
  • Weight in itself does not make a person obese. What makes a person obese is the ratio of muscle to fat. When I am working with a person I don't care about the weight fact is I recommend them not to weigh themselves I do a bodyfat percentage to determine what is taking place. Losing weight is not the answer losing bodyfat and retaining or gaining muscle is the only way to measure a persons progress.
  • You as well know eating 3 meals or eating 6 meals a day if the person can't make the decision to stop eating the wrong foods they will remain obese. I had one in my office very little muscle surrounded by rolls of fat, eating happy meals and french fries, drinking diet cokes, eating 3 meals a day 60% bodyfat still and had lost over 100lbs. Just as obese 2 years after the surgery, very sad state.
  • In conclusion I agree with you on nutritional deficiencies. I also feel you can better help your patients if you will look at the nutrition area a little harder. Not to say I am 100% correct but through research I feel you will see this is a proven plan for all your patients,and could begin to recommend your patients a healthier approach to their nutrition needs after surgery to keep the weight loss from becoming a muscle wasting loss as well.

I will have corrected the page by the time you read this please let me know your feeling as well. Thanks again for your great explaination on nutritional deficiencies and look forward to hopefully helping add some useful information to your pratice. Supplements


Gastric Bypass Diet

I think your changes to the Gastric Bypass topic can create a misconception. Gastric Bypass does alter nutrition, beyond simply modifying anatomy, and can result in serious nutritional deficiencies, which are indeed complications of the surgery:

  • Secondary Hyperparathyroidism, due to inadequate absorption of calcium, may occur in over 30% of patients. Calcium is primarily absorbed in the duodenum, which is bypassed by the surgery. Most patients can achieve adequate calcium absorption by supplementation with Vitamin D and Calcium Citrate (carbonate may not be absorbed - it requires an acidic stomach, which is bypassed).
  • Iron frequently is seriously deficient, particularly in menstruating females, and must be supplemented. Again, it is normally absorbed in the duodenum. Ferrous sulfate can cause considerable GI distress in normal doses, and I therefore recommend Ferrous fumarate, or a chelate. Occasionally, a female patient develops severe anemia, even with supplements, and must be treated with parenteral iron.
  • Vitamin B-12 requires intrinsic factor from the gastric mucosa to be absorbed. In patients with a small gastric pouch (like me), it may not be absorbed, even if supplemented orally, and deficiencies can result inn pernicious anemia and neuropathies. Sub-lingual B-12 appears to be adequately absorbed.
  • Protein malnutrition is a real risk. Some patients suffer troublesome vomiting after surgery, until their GI tract adjusts to the changes, and cannot eat adequate amounts even with 6 meals a day. Many patients require protein supplementation during the early phases of rapid weight loss, to prevent excessive loss of muscle mass.
  • Eating six small meals a day is a perfect way to defeat the long-term weight control objectives of the procedure. Most bariatric surgeons advise against this practice. As patients' functional gastric capacity increases over time, they will exceed their caloric needs with six meals, and will regain weight. When a patient returns with weight-gain, my first question is, "How much can you eat at a meal?" The answer is always, "Much less than before the surgery." The second question is, "How much are you eating between meals?" (i.e., more than three meals a day). Invariably, the patient has at least doubled caloric intake, with between meal snacks that add calories, usually high-starch, high-sugar, high-fat.
  • Fat people have developed a lifelong habitual strategy for finding foods which are satisfying to the appetite and to the abnormal physiology from which they suffer. The phase of rapid weight loss and severe intake restriction immediately after surgery is a golden time to introduce and fixate new behavior patterns. Advising 6 meals a day is an invitation to them, to resume their previous destructive dietary habits, and represents giving directions to the pathway of disappointment and defeat.

I write as one who has operated upon over 2500 such persons, who originated the technique for the laparoscopic gastric bypass, and who has had one of these operations (Laparoscopic Gastric Bypass, Roux en-Y) himself. As I do myself, all patients should completely supplement (100% MDR) all vitamins, and minerals.

I can only change a person's stomach — they must change their own mind. I give my patients four simple rules:

  1. Eat 2 - 3 meals daily (each meal to be mostly protein, and protein always eaten first).
  2. Never eat between meals.
  3. Drink a minimum of 64 ounces (eight glasses) of water each day (no sodas, even diet, allowed).
  4. Exercise aerobically for 20 minutes (minimum) each day.

This follows the KISS principle.

I'm pleased that you accept the wisdom the surgery for those who suffer from serious obesity. Let's not minimize the risks, or encourage adverse behavior which can defeat the desired outcome. Topnife 18:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

AFD vote for this article

Since it is so important that people with gastric bypasses have the proper information, you should remember that Wikipedia is not a doctor and not try to convince me on those terms. We can get into a lot of trouble for trying to take the place of a doctor.

In any case, I want people to have correct, researched information -- but gastric bypass is the best place to put this information. If people should search for gastric bypass diet, a redirect to gastric bypass (with the correct, verified information about the diet there) will ensure that they do get such information. Thanks for your time. Jacqui★ 14:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Bypass diet article

Unfortunately, I can't change my vote on this one. The information if sourced and appropriate is better off per how Wikipedia works in the main gastric bypass article and should be integrated there. Unfortnately, Wikipedia shouldn't be considered a primary source of *any* information, least of all important medical information, just a supplementary resource. rootology 14:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

AfD: Gastric bypass diet

Well, first of all, there is already an article about this. You can find it at Gastric bypass#Gastric bypass diet. Perhaps you should save all the information you wrote in your article and merge it into the main article. Second, I think what people are concerned about is that you don't provide any in-text citations. You need to let readers know that what you're writing is legitimate and not just some made-up stuff. I would work on improving the recovery information in the main article if I were you. That's where people who are going to have the surgery are most likely to look anyway. --Hyphen5 17:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Response to comment on my talk page

Hi, I recommended delete on the AfD per a previous vote who stated the article looked like a how-to guide. The article does not read like an encylopedic entry, but rather as an info sheet that your doctor would give you following surgery. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. I would be inclined to change my vote if the article was rewritten as an encyclopedic entry. Ie: rather than just talking about to do when on the diet, talk about why a patient would be on it, how it affects their life (ie: is this a short term diet, or a life altering one, etc). Personally, I would just skim, or highlight what the diet itself entails. Resolute 22:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Gastric bypass diet

Gastric bypass diet

I see were you voted to have this deleted and looks like you are asking for help from other members to vote as you tell them. I am asking if could you explain why as it makes no sense to get rid of very important article since surgery is one matter recovery is another. I am asking you to please reconsider your vote as this is too important to just get rid of. I have seen countless people after this operation get in terrible shape due to lack of knowing what to do after this operation.. Look at the references I supplied and see this is accurate information needed to be in Wikipedia --Supplements 14:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that I was asking others to "vote" as I tell them. I voted to delete because of the existance of something similar and relevant in the encyclopedia. I realise you have put a lot of work into that, so I suggest youcontact the admin that closes it and get them to transfer it to your userspace. ViridaeTalk 23:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I just had a look at the AfD and now realise where you got that idea. Those people who have voted similarly to me just agree with my vote, nothing more. ViridaeTalk 23:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


I see were you voted to have this redirected to the surgery page could you explain why as it makes no sense to get rid of very important article since surgery is one matter recovery is another. I am asking you to please reconsider your vote as this is too important to just get rid of. I have seen countless people after this operation get in terrible shape due to lack of knowing what to do after this operation.. Look at the references I supplied and see this is accurate information needed to be in Wikipedia --Supplements 13:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

People who are serious candidates for this procedure should not be coming to Wikipedia to get information on it—they should be discussing it with their doctor, who should be making recommendations specific to their situation. That said, I voted to delete the article after reading it and determining (1) that it cites no sources in the article and (2) it is in the tone of a "how-to" article. Also, in regard to the discussion above: when I said "Delete per Viridae," what I meant is, for the reasons Viridae cited—in lieu of typing out the same reasons myself. —C.Fred (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)