Talk:Supervenience

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[edit] Intro rewrite and (temporary?) chart removal

I rewrote the intro since, though it was good, it did not seem to capture the core ideas in the supervenience literature, which I have been wading through for some time now. Also, I removed the chart, for reasons similar to those cited below. In fact, realization itself has developed into something of a literature, and its relation to supervenience is hotly debated. However, I do like the chart and think it should be re-introduced in a subsection, perhaps on mental causation. At any rate, I hope my changes will be improved upon, and apologize for any mistakes or abuses of wiki convention (I still consider myself a wiki neophyte). Jyoshimi 05:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chart

That chart doesn't show supervenience, it shows one physical property that realizes a mental property causing another physical property that realizes a mental property. Sure, realization is one way of getting supervenience, but it's certainly not the only way. And there's nothing in supervenience that has low-level properties causing each other. Just think of supervenience in meta-ethics. --GodRousingDogPipes 06:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The caption of the current chart says the chart shows a relationship between "A" and "B", but "A" and "B" do not appear in the chart. 206.53.197.12 (talk) 02:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mental Properties

the examples of mental supervenience given are:

   * If two people, X and Y, are identical with regards to their physical properties, they must also be identical in their mental properties.

   * If two people, X and Y, are identical with regards to their mental properties, they must also be identical in their physical properties.

However, only the first example is consistent with the definition of supervenience given: when X supervenes on Y, identical Y necessitates identical X. It does NOT follow that identical X necessitates identical Y (e.g. a chessboard made of wood is identical to one made of marble for the purposes of someone only interested in the rules of chess, but a wooden chessboard and a wooden non-chessboard MUST be different at the level of woodwork in addition to being different at the chess rule level). The second example needs to be removed, or an explanation for this inconsistent usage needs to be given. (snaxalotl)


[edit] Replications

"An atom-by-atom replication of a person will have the same mental characteristics as the original."

An atom-by-atom replication of a person couldn't ever be exact. They would necessarily occupy different positions in space and time, and have variant perspectives (however slight).

That's not the point. Even though it's physically impossible to have exact replication, /in principle/ an exact replication would, by supervenience, result in exact mental replication. Also, it might be true that slight differece will produce a different mental instance, but this doesn't follow from the definition of supervenience and is irrelevant here. (snaxalotl)

[edit] About value

I don't understand what is meant by organism in the sentence:

"The value of a physical object to an organism is sometimes held to be supervenient upon the physical properties of the object."

Should it be replaced by agent? Is that any better?

That's sounds like better wording to me. I've changed it. — Trilobite (Talk) 22:38, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The review of Physics continues at Talk:Physics/wip

Some time ago a group of editors set up a "work in progress" page (at Talk:Physics/wip) to hammer out a consensus for the Physics article, which for too long had been in an unstable state. Discussion of the lead for the article has taken a great deal of time and thousands of words. The definitional and philosophical foundations seem to cause most headaches, along with the status of the special sciences and their supervenience on physics, or their reduction to physics. Progress has been made. Why not review some of the proposals for the lead material that people are putting forward, or put forward your own, or simply join the discussion? The more contributors the better, for a consensus. – Noetica 02:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: Concrete proposals have now been put forward, arising from recent discussion aimed at producing a stable and consensual lead section for the Physics article. We have set up a straw poll, for comments on the proposals. Why not drop in at Talk:Physics/wip, and have your say? The more the better! – Noetica 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing bracket in FOL statement

Under "Definitions", the second formal FOL statement has three opening parentheses, and only two closing ones. Is this is a mistake? Jameshfisher 22:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Fixed it. Thanks. Jyoshimi (talk) 07:12, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FOL definition not well-formed

In the first formal definition the first two universal quantifiers are limited in scope to the antecedent only, while the variables that are bound to them appear in the consequent. This doesn't seem to me to be well-formed.

There should only be one parenthesis after the iff in the antecedent and there should be no parenthesis that start off the consequent.

are my assessments accurate?

I went ahead and made the modification.

Kmddmk (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for section on Supervenience in Philosophy of Physics.

I was going to test the waters if people thought a part in the article on arguments about Supervenience and implications for reductive accounts of physical world with spercific examples of quantum theory was a good idea. I am new to wikipedia but feel this is an important part of understanding how supervenience is important beyond simple considerations in the philosophy of mind.

Leave me a comment if you think it will be a good idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel jones (talk • contribs) 08:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)