Talk:Superman II

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Film Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Films. This project is a central gathering of editors working to build comprehensive and detailed articles for film topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start
This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
High
This article has been rated as High-importance on the priority scale.
Superman This article is part of WikiProject Superman. The purpose of this project is to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on and/or related to Superman on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science Fiction, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on science fiction on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article. Feel free to add your name to the participants list and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.

Despite all the difficulties, and with only a few noticeable shifts in tone between the two directors' scenes (Lester's scenes tend more to camp and humor), this is still a remarkable and coherent film, highlighted by the movie's battle sequence between Superman and the three Phantom Zone prisoners on the streets of Metropolis, which has yet to be topped by any other superhero movie.

I'd call that paragraph, particularly the end, pretty controversial. POV. Whatever. I happen to like a lot of other superhero battle scenes. I'd fix it, but somehow, I don't think I'd do it right...

"Luthor convinces them they must pursue Superman to his fortress, where Superman tricks them, counting on Luthor to double-cross him. The same red light that drains super-powers is loosed on the fortress while Superman is safe inside the chamber that once drained his powers. Superman feigns weakness, and then crushes Zod's hand, Lois easily dispatches Ursa, and Non leaps to find he can't leap. Superman and Lois return to Metropolis, leaving Luthor to walk home. (In one TV version, a US "polar patrol" is picking up the three Kryptonians.)"

Given the dramatic changes in tone between the Theatrical and Extended version, there really should be two versions of this paragraph. Villains appear to die in theatrical cut while we know Richard Donner orginially filmed them being carted away with Lex by the Arctic police. Also Sups destroys the fortress of solitude and breaks up with Lois.

Contents

[edit] Trivia Section

I think the trivia section needs a rewrite as it's very bad, gramatically-wise, with lots of frivilous text. Smoothy 13:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It appears to be plagarised from the imdb. 29th April 2006

I removed the reference to a "Ford Pinto" being blown backward into a pit and then exploding in the rear. It's not a Pinto, but a rather large American four-door model with a chrome grill, perhaps a Chevy.
- Loadmaster 22:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Over edit war on whether sequence of films listed should be on basis of continuity or production order. The conversation is at Talk:Superman Returns#Protected. -- Samir धर्म 06:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disappearing holograms

because marlon brando's hologram appears in superman returns, does that mean that the cut scene with marlon brando explaining that the holograms will disappear is outside of the film continuity? that would put the upcoming richard donner cut as non-canon in the movie timeline. or perhaps because superman returns creates an alternate timeline to the original series, the richard donner cut is inside the continuity of the original timeline (superman 1, 2, 3, and 4) and outisde the continuity of the splinter timeline (superman 1, 2, and returns). ColdFusion650 00:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no true continuity for Superman Returns. It starts it's own and just uses bits from the other films. Bignole
The article for Superman Returns and several other articles I've read seem to suggest or flat out say that it's a sequel to the first two. Superman (1978 film) says, "The 2006 film Superman Returns continues from the first sequel." Superman IV: The Quest For Peace says,"Superman Returns would - according to director Bryan Singer - be a sequel to the first two films starring Reeve, and completely ignore both Superman III and this film." Superman Returns says,"Bryan Singer has said that the loose continuity established in the first two Christopher Reeve Superman films serves as its back-story, or, as he put it, a 'vague history'." If there is a misconception, it's fairly widespread. Even the director is confused. This page graphically explains it well. Besides, if it was it's timeline, unrelated to the original movies, it would be a reboot. And I haven't heard the word reboot ever describing Superman Returns. Whereas, it is commonly used with Batman Begins. ColdFusion650 00:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
That's because it is too hard to police all the articles. It is a "loose sequel", where Singer said the first two movies serves as a 'vague history". And, if the sequel to Superman Returns is true, then Singer wants to retcon almost all the events of Superman II, atleast all the ones with the kryptonian criminals. So, it seems that this "sequel" is turning into a new vehicle of its own. Singer has never said outright that it is a true sequel to Superman II. Bignole
Are you saying that the sequel to Superman Returns is rumored to involve the kryptonian criminals? ColdFusion650 00:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Singer has mentioned that he would like to do Zod, but he would want to reinvent him, so to speak. Bignole
I'm not sure how that would work. Perhaps he would retcon it to where Superman Returns is only a sequel to Superman I, although that would raise questions as to how Lois had a son with Superman, although while strongly suggesting that, they didn't come right out and say it, leaving it open to be retconned. Although, it never shows Zod dying in the movie. In fact, in the Donner cut, they are picked up with Lex Luthor by a patrol in the arctic. Perhaps he could still make it follow Superman II while having Zod come back, after he somehow got his powers back, through some scheme of Lex Luthor's I'm sure. Although, he could just decide that making it all work is not worth it and drop the Zod idea. That sure is a lot of althoughs and complex sentences. ColdFusion650 01:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that you are supposed to look at Superman Returns as just Superman Returns and any events that require a history just look to the previous films. Everything was really just an inside joke in the movie. Nothing was explicitly stated. I think the point of "vague history" is to say that if you require an explaination then look to Reeve. Bignole

[edit] "Plot holes"

I don't think problems of scientific plausibility--the scenes on the moon, whether or not the kryptonians feel pain--are "plot holes," which are gaps in explanation between events in the story. Should there be a separate section for "problems of plausibility"? Although one might have to "existence of Superman" under that heading. Ccoll 22:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the whole section. Most are not plot holes and you don't give huge paragraphs for what should be listed in bullet form. Them talking on the moon is a continuity error. If if you could believe in Superman and the powers, they still cannot defy the laws of nature, which when there is no air there is no sound. (Star Wars violates these rules all the time; like when a ship explodes it always seems to fall like a sinking ship, but in the depths of space there is no gravity). The "pain in the molecule chamber" is continuity error as well. As for the "Superman losing powers and then gaining them", that could be considered a plot hole, but it should be more like:
  • In the film, Superman gives up his powers for Lois. In the process the FOS is destroyed, but not before his mother tells him he can never go back. Later, after the Kryptonians land on Earth, Clark goes back to the FOS and finds the green crystal. He eventually returns with his powers restored and no explaination.
    • Note: The scenes that explained this were cut, because they involved Marlon Brando whom the Salkinds refused to pay for his contributions. Bignole 22:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
    • And this should be in the main article, because the movie is unintelligible as it stands. Afabbro 22:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cut status or Cult status

The heading "Controversy and cult status" was recently changed to "Controversy and cut status" by an anonymous user. I immediately thought "ah! stupid! change it back." But now that I think about it, the heading "cut" status seems even a bit more logical. Should we keep it? This should be decided soon, since the page Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut explicitly links to that section (and is currently broken). —EatMyShortz 14:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] merge suggestion

At the top of the cut section is a proposal that this page be merged with the Donner Cut page. I don't think this should be merged with the Donner Cut page. From what I'm reading they're essentially two separate films and, in fact, warner brothers will be releasing them as two separate films this fall. Spookyadler 15:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad word choice

Don't use the word "ironically" if you don't know what it means! There is nothing inherently contradictory about the director appearing in the movie as an extra.

[edit] Deleting a Poster's contribution

I posted a very lengthy section entitled "Scenes Donner Shot" above the Trivia section. This took considerable time and effort and User:Bignole decided to delete it. It was accurate and I am sure people do want to know what Donner shot. People here need to be less hasty with the edit button! I won't be adding anything further from now on - Indo77

Please be aware that you need to provide sources to back that kind of information up, not just something you say you "know". No source = removal. Bignole 00:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

This stuff is common knowledge and the Internet community has been aware of the material for years.

http://www.supermancinema.co.uk/superman2/real_s2/analysis/index.htm - Jon Hoyle, GandalfDC, Bill Willaims, Additional help by "Me"

I even wrote the following article

http://www.supermancinema.co.uk/superman2/general/extended_versions/the_tv_versions/index.htm

The Trivia section appears to not back up any sources.


I don't monitor everything on the page, for one thing. But when there is an extensive increase in trivia it's hard to not notice. Also, anything YOU write is not considered valid. Just like if say Richard Donner were to become an editor for Wikipedia, anything he adds to his own page wouldn't be allowed. It's called "self promotion", and wikipedia is not in the business of promoting other websites. As for the link, if you had it then you should have put it there originally. Now, about the information you are trying to add, I would personally discuss it with other editors to see if it would be appropriate to include. Wikipedia likes you to be bold, but sometimes when you are making large additions/subtractions to a page it's good to discuss the matter with other editors that monitor/edit the page on a regular basis. If you leave a message on the Talk page and no one responds, try looking at the "HISTORY" and see what names pop up frequently and send them a personal message to look at what you are trying to add. Bignole 00:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair Enough. I do understand where you are coming from about sources as I have written dissertations. Same rules apply - Indo77

You've provided a source, and it seems to be a reputable one, at least Entertainment Weekly thinks so; so I'm cool with it. But, if you personally added some of that information it wouldn't be able to be placed in the article unless you can provide additional sources as to where you found that information out. Bignole 01:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is definitely an excess of eagerness with the edit button and a complete lack of consideration for the effort of other people. Here's a novel idea: why not ask contributors if they can provide sources BEFORE removing their work?((unsigned|Cgivillains}}

Again, as I said on your personal page, it is YOUR responsibility to provide a source to prove your work, not the responsibility of other editors to seek YOU out to prove it. If you cannot prove it then it gets removed. You cannot write a research paper that contains information "FROM YOUR HEAD" and say it's "FACT" and not expect people to question it. NO SOURCE = NO EDIT. I do believe I was polite enough to alert you to why you were being reverted, Cgivillains, and you proceded to lose control and go off about it. You could have simply provided your source initially, that source could have been verified, and this could have all been over. Look what Indo77 did. The situation was presented and they provided their sources, which were reliable, and as far as I'm concerned they have the right to post their information again. You on the other hand persist in arguing about it, and never providing anything to back you up, just simply spouting "Fact#1..." Bignole 22:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


Here is the shoting script that I was trying to tell you about: http://www.capedwonder.com/scripts/superman_2-mankiewicz.pdf Pay attention to scenes 394-398. It is exactly what I said it was.

And by the way, you *write* a research paper, you don't "right" a research paper.

CGIvillains

Again, "scripts" are rather hard to verify, and as I said on your page if it contains scenes that Indo provided a source for, then ok. As for the fans thing, you have yet to actually prove anything of the sort. Again, all of this could simply be avoided by actually provided documentation of what you edit, but you have yet to do so. Apparently it's bothering you because you feel the need to nitpick a typing error. Bignole 22:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


You seem to be inconsistent in your views towards scripts. For example, in the Triva section, the first point says " The original script had the nuclear missile from Superman: The Movie releasing Zod and companions from the Phantom Zone, instead of the Eiffel Tower bomb. " Now, why is that acceptable, but when I say that there was a certain scene in the script you have a hard time believing it. I have even showed you a pdf of the script. How is that any less credible than the person who made the point about the nuclear missile?

CGIVillains

Again, why do people assume that just because they are reverted for something that who ever reverted them reads everything on the page. I just happened to see your edit, I don't read every single page that I watch to make sure of what is there, that would not only take forever to do, but would just become rather boring after awhile. I didn't create this page, and I've only recently started watching it because of editors trying to make Superman II the predecessor of Superman Returns. If you see others doing something that you were discouraged from, then please feel free to take charge and remove it. If you find that is is legitimate (like, it's noted in the first link that Indo provided) then just place the reference next to that and be done with it. I don't have time to go through every link, or check on every bit of trivia (which really isn't what an encyclopedia should include). People need to understand that just because someone is attempting to make 1 thing better in the article, does not mean that other things don't need fixing as well. I've gone through this with TV episode pages. They aren't very notable, and thus shouldn't be created, but when one is trying to prevent them the only argument is "well others are doing it". Well, others are wrong in this instance as well, but I can't monitor every single television show episode list, just like I can't monitor everything that was already on this page before I started watching it, or that was added in a cloud of edits. Bignole 23:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


Everything that I have spoken about has actually been discussed on that SupermanCinema website that Indo provided. For example, here is a page discussing the scripted scene where the villains take over the world: http://www.supermancinema.co.uk/daily_planet/dvd2006/s2-recon-spec/dvd2006-s2-recon-8.asp Is that adequate? This is the same site that is featured by Entertainment Weekly.

Finally, regarding the petition from fans. On that same Supermancinema site (the one featured in Entertainment Weekly), there is a copy of one letter sent to Michael Thau. It's here: http://www.thecinemaforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1098&highlight=open+letter+thau There are 340 names on this letter alone. Yes, i know forums are generally not great sources, BUT this is the forum belonging to Supermancinema. Yes, the same site that was cited by EW!

Here is a video of Thau being interviewed. Notice how he states that the fans were responsible for petitioning Warner. http://iesb.net/mambots/content/mgmediabot/players.php?params=standalone,true|type,wmv|path,http://host143.ipowerweb.com/~inlandem/newvideo/ccmichaelthau.wmv|width,400|height,400

[edit] The fortress & the green crystal

I may have missed this in older discussions about this article: What evidence do we have that Sup used the green crystal to rebuild the FOS as opposed to just fixing the control panel or something similar? I seems perfectly plausible BUT I've never seen any scenes or heard any dialogue that illustrates this, either in the theatrical or extended vers... Tommyt 15:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it was insinuated that he used it, because it was the only thing left when he returned and it was what built the FOS in the first place. Also, I think that I may have heared that Donner originally filmed that sequence of events, but I'm not sure and no one will be till the Donner version comes out in November. Bignole 15:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Guess we'll all have to wait n' see then. Tommyt 20:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewording required?

"*In a episode of Family Guy Peter remebers a scene in which Superman trows the crest from his chest and makes a illusion taht Non would be traped."

I've corrected the spelling in this sentence but can anybody reword it to make more sense? Having not seen "Family Guy" I don't exactly know what the poster is trying to say.

[edit] POV correction needed

There's a part in the article where it says the salkinds used Donner as "a scapegoat".I'm not trying to justify what the Salkinds did,but that's really a POV.The Salkinds belived that Donner may fail the movie by going over the budget. Basically they too have their side of the story and probably won't admit that they used him as a "scapegoat". I just think it should be removed as it's a simple POV.Nadirali 15:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Agreed. Bignole 15:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot hole

The whole macho brawl did not make sense.

Rocky comes into the diner looking to pick up and eat. Lois rejects him. Rocky turns away from her and does not bother her. Clark walks out and wants his seat. The diner is not full- they could have moved. Clark challenges Rocky to a fight(uncalled for- it was not like he was touching/harassing lois or that Rocky was picking a fight with Clark). Rocky hits Clark from behind- Rocky then goes and sits down. Rocky tried to end the fight fast.

Clark gets up walks over to Rocky and stares at him- very stupid- what was he waiting for- he should have thrown a punch or did something. Not stand and get attacked again. Rocky defends himself and leaves the diner in disgust.

Later...


Rocky is eating a meal and is challenged to a fight- AGAIN. Clark beats him up. Rocky breaks his hand and is humiliated. Probibly loses his job as he can not drive a truck. Maxwell Smith 10:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ummm....makes perfect sense. Since Clark lost all his super powers, he is experiencing "human" feelings, such as hunger, jealousy, rage. Clark was trying to protect Lois and thought he was invincible. He exacted a measure of revenge on Rocky when he got his superpowers back.
ArcAngel (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Walking to Superman's Fortress

If ever a 'blooper' section is added to this article, here's a blooper> Clark Kent (minus his super-powers) somehow manages to walk through snowstorms and freezing climate, back to his 'Superman Fortress'. He neither freezes or starvs to death (even more laughable, he's got no winter clothing). GoodDay 21:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC) Strike-through text

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Superman ii ver3.jpg

Image:Superman ii ver3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)