Talk:Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut

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Contents

[edit] Fan Cuts Need a Separate article

Surely Superman II deserves a separate article in relation to the fancuts. I don't think any film in history has had such fierce re-editing, both officially (3 times) and unofficially (dozens). Surely this movie now has rocketed into extrodinary territory since unofficial edits have turn themselves into official ones because of the involvement of top-class editors and sites like YouTube. This has started a chain reaction. I think any talented writers should possibly capitalise reproducing this information on wikipedia.


[edit] Too many quotes?

The story of this film is so subjective, full of accusations and vitriol that the only way to tell it objectively is by enabling the various players to express their viewpoints. Without them, the entry would be either full of 'he said although she said something else' or would simply not be objective.

It can still be done in a more appropriate way than a quote every few lines. Rhindle The Red 15:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to help remove some of the quotes on the page, But how do you know Which ones matter the most that are important. Nathen

[edit] "Continuity problems" section

Do we need an unsourced and mostly original research section that of its own admission is unconfirmed? Anyone care to defend this stuff?Rhindle The Red 00:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superman II Merge

  • It'd be extremely difficult to merge this quantity of content into the already-large Superman II--and the content here is of a quality that merits its keeping. As it stands, the two editions of the film sound dramatically different enough such that each requires its own article. Keep it here. Tom Lillis 06:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I think they should be seperate because they are 2 tottaly differnet movies almost will loads of never before seen footage leave them seperate.

Of course not. They are fundamentally separate entities.Rhindle The Red 02:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Do not merge--would make single article entirely too long. Willerror 17:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut should continue to have its own article, as the planned re-edit will feature 70% never-before seen Donner footage. NeoSuperBlissey 11:59, 7/7/2006 (UTC)

I think these two articles should stay as they are for now. Perhaps when the official Donner Cut DVD is released they could be merged. Tagging it on to the main Superman II content now would somehow diminuish this article I think.

  • Are you kidding? When the DVD comes out, there will be a lot more information. I expect it will be solidified quite a bit, with a breakdown of all the changes. —EatMyShortz 09:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree they should be kept apart. because it seems to me that they're pretty much two different movies. Spookyadler 15:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

A metric ton of the information in this article belongs in the Superman II article. Most of the production section belongs there, and should be replaced with a much shorter summary (which should probably stress the breakup between Donner and the producers- in fact, I'd say you should NOT summarize the information regarding the fallout between them.). What should be especially be summarized is everything about Lester's shoot- very little of it remains in Donner's cut anyway. What should least be summarized is the information about Donner's shoot- but, then again, I'm betting that a portion of that information actually belongs in the article for the first film, as it was a double shoot. All that being said, a summary of the assembly of this cut belongs in the Superman II article. - MajorB <talk> <contribs> - 04:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Version You've Never Seen?

The lead sentence states "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut, also known as The Version You've Never Seen" - I've never seen the title "The Version You've Never Seen" anywhere but here, and it isn't mentioned on any of the links at the bottom. I'm removing this statement. If anyon wants to add it back, please cite sources. (I expect that if it does have an official source, it's just a tagline as opposed to the actual title of the film). —EatMyShortz 09:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Ah, OK, I found the mention in "A tale of two dicks" [1]: "Tentatively dubbed 'The Version You Never Saw'". I still don't think it's relevant as the title of the film. —EatMyShortz 10:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It hasnt been out yet, but...

It already has a perfect score in IMDB of 10.0, im amazed since its the first time i see such score in IMDB (its rather obvious its all from fans though).

[edit] Destroy the Fortress of Solitude?

Don't you think that would destroy the continuity of Superman Returns? Art1991 20:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Who cares about Returns, Superman III is the TRUE continuation of II as it was originally. Sorry you can't just decide the film doesn't exist in the timeline, cause it does.--12.72.30.5 07:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Try telling that to the fans of The Highlander who hate the second film. 70.108.65.167 23:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

If that were true,then Superman 4 could never be the sequel as Superman is seen back in the fortress seeking guidance.I personally prefer the original Superman 2.The Richard DOnner cut was way too short.The deleted footage should have just been added to it that's all.Nadirali 22:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

Actually if someone later reinvents the chronology (retcons it), then the film no longer applies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.190.92.205 (talk) 02:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
Now that I've seen the film, here's the real answer to my own question! Superman turns back the world, in the process rebuilding the Fortress of Solitude! Case closed. Dilemma solved. Good night. Art1991 04:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First film's title

I've been through and amended all instances of Superman: The Movie to the correct Superman. The former was only used in pre-release advertising, but has since made its way on to various DVD covers, which serves to keep the misconception alive. Chris 42 19:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot holes

Would it be worth discussing these in the body of the article?

  • In the scene where Lois pretends to shoot Clark to prove he's Superman there is NO WAY Superman wouldn't have known the gun was firing a blank. It's already been established in film I that he can catch a bullet, so he'd certainly be aware that in this case there was no bullet to catch.
  • Last time we see Luthor he's in the Fortress of solitude. No explanation of what Supe does with him. (Yeah, it's explained in the deleted scene, but not in the movie.)
  • When Superman turns time backwards some events are reversed but not others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lee M (talk • contribs) 04:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
Without citation of someone else pointing out plotholes, it's original research and doesn't belong. WesleyDodds 14:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I was able to add the Luthor item in the trivia item about whether or not Superman killed the Kryptonians. I did a further revision of my original so it removed a bit of speculation re:Luthor, though it isn't POV or OR to state his fate is left "an answered question". The first plot hole cited isn't really one. Even if Clark knew the gun was firing a blank, there really was nothing he could have done that would have protected his identity at that point. There was no excuse for Superman-in-disguise to allow himself to fall into the fireplace in the Lester version, either. 23skidoo 23:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The gun could either contain lead, which superman can't see thru anyway, or even the bullet. And in the short amount of time given he may not have thought to even look to see what was in the gun. It's not like he always has his x-ray vision on.--Iamstillhiro1112 03:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IMDB

Some where in the article you can read, that the Richard Donner Cut has a much better rating than the "original" Superman II has on the IMDB. But that's not the hole thruth: while about 20.000 people voted for the normal version, just about 2.000 people voted for the latter. So while the normal film has the votes of all kind of people, the Donner Cut just has ratings from fans. One have to say something about this, because it makes a big difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.15.169 (talk) 16:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continuity with series

I have commented out this section since it is completely unsourced and seems to be nothing but original research. If it can be sourced, fine. If not, it should be removed completely. Rhindle The Red 03:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New DVD Cover

The DVD cover has changed. I would appreciate if someone would upload the new DVD cover. Thank You! Limetolime 23:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I deleted the Trivia section, but I'm placing what was there here, so that it can be saved until there is a way to figure out how to incorporate the information into the article. Anakinjmt 15:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Body Doubles
    • Margot Kidder: Lois falling from the window of the Daily Planet and bouncing off the awning.
    • Christopher Reeve: Clark Kent looking out the window of the Daily Planet and several shots when Kal-El/Superman is inside the depowering chamber.
  • The title "The Richard Donner Cut" is not used in the film's main titles. The opening credits simply title the movie as just Superman II.
  • The film is dedicated to the memory of Christopher Reeve.
  • A shot of editor Michael Thau's hands was used for Clark picking up the green crystal in the Fortress of Solitude. The green cyrstal prop in that scene is the same one used in Superman Returns.
  • There is a new live-action shot of the White House before the super-villains attack, as well as several new live-action shots during the time-reversal sequence.
  • This is the only Superman film to utilize the famous comic book line, "up, up, and away", although it is not Superman who says the line but Lois Lane, saddened at the thought that her relationship with him is over by stating: "There he goes. Up, up, and away."
  • According to the website Supermancinema.co.uk, the Donner cut breaks down thus: 75% is the original Donner shoot, 8% is newly filmed or CGI material, scenes from the first film and also the Niagara Falls Donner-filmed screen-test, and 17% is Lester footage edited to reflect Donner’s vision of the film, specifically removing many of Lester’s trademark sight-gags. About 50 percent of the film is brand-new to the audience.
  • Christopher Reeve's first day of filming Superman and Superman II was April 5, 1977. His first scene was for Superman II as Clark Kent (shot against a blue screen to be inserted into the Fortress of Solitude), with Marlon Brando as Jor-El.
  • Marlon Brando received $3.7 million, 11.75% of the domestic gross and 5.65% of the foreign gross for thirteen days of filming on Superman: The Movie and Superman II.
  • Gene Hackman received $2 million to play Lex Luthor in both Superman: The Movie and Superman II.
  • Christopher Reeve received $250,000 for Superman: The Movie and $500,000 for Superman II.
  • There are about 200 new special effects in the film, according to editor Michael Thau.
  • It took 8 months to restore Richard Donner's Superman II footage.
  • Margot Kidder was asked to reloop some of her scenes but she declined because her voice has dropped in pitch over the years.
  • The footage of Zod kicking Superman into the torch of the Statue of Liberty, and Superman punching Non into the Empire State Building was shot by Richard Donner for a Superman II trailer.
  • The time-reversal ending was the original intended ending for Superman II, but it was used for the first film to give it a more exciting conclusion. Richard Donner has stated that he and writer Tom Mankiewicz would have come up with an alternate ending for Superman II if given the opportunity.
  • Richard Donner is anti-fur. After the end credits, there is a note by Donner stating that because he was not involved in the original project of the film, the scenes containing any use of fur was not his doing. The note also states that he does not endosre tobacco use as depicted in the film at the time.