Talk:Superman (Earth-Two)

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Contents 1 First Silver Age apparance 2 Superman#76 not an Earth-2 story 3 Death of Kal-L pic 3.1 Images and consensus 4 Survey 5 In Other Media 6 Advanced hearing powers? 7 Requesting mediation 8 Name of the Article 9 Do we really need the hatnote?

[edit] First Silver Age apparance

Added Superhero box and informartion about his first Silver Age apparance, but I can't find information about who were the artists or writers of that issue. --Ace ETP 00:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I found it...Editor: Julius Schwartz, Cover Artist: Joe Kubert, Writer: Dennis O'Neil, Penciller: Dick Dillin, Inker: Sid Greene. I'm guessing only O'Neil and Dillin get credit for the creation/re-imagining of this character, right? Are inkers and editors usually credited with the creation of characters? --Ace ETP 01:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superman#76 not an Earth-2 story

This story features an account of Superman learning the Batman's secret identity, which as shown in World's Finest Comics#271, did not take place on Earth-2 but only on Earth-1.

Also, one story suggested that the Earth-2 Batman started his career in 1937 see Detective Comics#65. Though his textual debut came in 1939, that story made it clear that the Earth-2 Batman had had at least one unrecorded adventure (the police already knew about him). There was another story published in 1952 which stated someone had studied him for 15 years.

[edit] Death of Kal-L pic

I thought it made the bottom of the page look cluttered and removed it in an effort to improve the page. There was no reason to label it vandalism. Assume good faith, remember? CovenantD 02:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I am SO tired of people telling me that. It's a hypocritical double standard, man. Anyway, Say something in the freaking edit summary. Besides, like a GIPU said, people, for some reason were avoiding the issues of Alex and Kal-L's deaths at first. Finally, have you even considered how removing pictures puts the uploader out? Honestly...

The picture helps illustrate the freaking death of this character and has a message to it. Something like that is just as importanté, if not more so than the image of an SHB. It stays. ACS (Wikipedian) 03:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Then why don't you get something a bit less cluttered, like just the last panel? Honestly with that and the Kal-El/Kal-L pic so close it's not aesthetically pleasing. You don't get to decide by yourself. CovenantD 03:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Neither do you. It's really not that bad. I mean...really. All this over two images. I moved the other one so it's displayed with the proper section. That's called improving an article. You should try it sometime. Now, I'm going back to viewing Smallville. ACS (Wikipedian) 03:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images and consensus

Hey. Well, I'll say this: An edit war, even a civil one, should be a sense to try and talk things out rather than just "doing it your way". Neodammerung, I'd like to thank you for fighting the good fight, but I'll also admit, there was a better way. Anyway, I'd also like to start by saying the non-cover art escape picture is a bit excessive and probably unnecessary. We already have a picture like that in the SHB. Using both is like linking to a character through their secret identity redirect and their superhero title in one sentence. Next, what's with all this "aesthetic" BS? I don't think that pertains to any Wikipedia policy. In fact, Someguy and Cov's obsession with it seems kind of creepy, don't ya think? I mean...who's it really "pleasing" to have pictures displayed in the wrong sections? I don't even wanna know. Plus, look the word up. "Aesthetics, esthetics, or æsthetics is both the study of beauty and the properties of a system that appeal to the senses, as opposed to the content, structures, and utility of the system itself." In other words, you're intentionally disregarding the way things should be done in favor of some silly POV method, which, BTW, is subjective and, I think, wrongly claimed in this case. The page might never be "Beautiful", but you're sure not making it look any better. Anyway, speaking of pictures and sections, that brings me to my key point. Am I the only one who sees the idiocy in displaying the Young supes versus Old supes picture at the freaking START of the infinite crisis section? It might not be too much of a spoiler, but come on! A whole section devoted to the fight and we put it two sections before that? It looks totally retarded. Finally, the death picture must not come before the "Sacrifice" section. I mean...really. Is that not common sense? ACS (Wikipedian) 02:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The irony of that first line is just astounding. And stop the personal attacks, okay? CovenantD 02:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I take you don't want to help the discussion, let alone see us reach a resolution. I'll forgive you for that, whatever your mysterious reasons may be. However, would you might ceasing with these baseless claims?! Where do I make any sort of "personal attack(s)"? (This is mildly rhetorical, BTW.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ace Class Shadow (talk • contribs) .

This is hardly what I or anyone else would call an edit war. You're making a big deal out of something that is merely a stylistic difference. What we did was simply adjust the placement of a few images. Learn your terms before going off on some rant. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 03:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Feh. Alright. I'll let it go. I'm not confused or ignorance, though, so don't try the whole "STFU, Newb!" thing. I know the terms. If you were working toward the same goal, it wouldn't take two people, that amount of time or so many edits. Please. ACS (Wikipedian) 03:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It's Wikipedia. People will have differences. It's part of the process. However, it is not edit warring in that simple instance. It is edit warring when people are overly intransigent on an issue and refuse to give ground, which is certainly not the case here. Not everyone agrees, few are ever 100% right, and 10 edits over short succession is not that big of a deal. You simply insist on making it one for no apparent reason. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 03:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Of the two images we've seen at the botttom of the page, I'd rather see the Kal-L v Kal-El go bye-bye and keep the death scene. The former isn't all that relevant in the larger scheme of the character and there are plenty of pics already. CovenantD 04:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

This is part of the problem with comic pages. They tend to be heavy on the height so you have to pick and choose. I do agree though. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 04:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

[edit] In Other Media

I think that since there exists a section on the character in other media (common among superheroes of every sort) we should discuss what does and doesn't constitute an appearance of Kal-L in other media.

1) Since Kal-L is--or represents--the original version of Superman, one might argue that ALL of Superman's non-comics vehicles count. However, everything that follows the first TV series is clearly based more on the Silver Age version of the character. However one can counter saying Kal-L is Kal-L because he is a version of Superman that specifically represents the Golden Age Superman.

2) At this time, the video games are included as there are unlockable costumes that are clearly based on looks that distinguish Kal-L from Kal-El. In Superman Returns, you can unlock the costume he wore in the first issue of Superman (vol. 1); while in Justice League Heroes players can "purchace" a skin that obviously resembles Kal-L in later years and is identified as his "Infinite Crisis" costume.

3) Also included here is a character that's purely BASED on Kal-L and another character from Justice League unlimited. As Kal-El is also based on Kal-L, this lends further creedence to the idea that later versions should be included.

4) Once included were the early Max Fliescher cartoons, as people obviously associate that version with Kal-L.

5) At one point, I had it put in the article that the Kirk Alyn and, to a lesser extent George Reeves versions were arguably Kal-L. There are differences, but both are very similar to a novel published in 1952 that may or may not spell Kal-L's name with no E. In said novel, his parents' names are Sara and Eben as they are in the series and serials, but this was not the case with Kal-L. Chronologically, the Superman serials take place toward the end of the Golden Age by some definitions thereof.

6) Whether a comic STRIP and a comic BOOK are two different media is perhaps controversial. However, in that event, the comic STRIP Superman of the Golden Age is clearly the same as in the comics, with often the same stories being used in both.

7) It is tempting to label the radio series' Superman a version of Kal-L based purely on chronology. However, the differences between Kal-L and Kal-El (e.g. the names of the Daily Star being changed to the Daily Planet, and the name of George Taylor being changed to Perry White) were introduced in this. Furthermore, the radio series is unique in that Superman arrived on Earth as an adult, according to some sources.

8) Obviously no live action or animated version can lay claim to being Kal-L as opposed to Kal-El if (a) it's revealed that he grew up as Superboy or b) if Ma and Pa Kent lived into his adult years. Perhaps even taking place at such a time when Superman could not have been an adult during World War II disqualifies a given vehicle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Epiphone83 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

Since this all stems from a presumption made after the 1969 introduction of the character, the only appropriate citations under "Other media" would be appearances after that date and actually referred to as the Earth-Two Superman. Everything else is "Superman in other media" and should be dealt with in the "Cultural impact" section of the parent article. — J Greb 14:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Advanced hearing powers?

Now the Earth-One superhero (Kal-El) had super hearing powers. However, I'm not sure if this one does too. Can someone verify if he and Supergirl (and any other "Superpeople") have such an ability so that I may add Category:Fictional characters with the power of advanced hearing at the bottom? Thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 09:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting mediation

User:Netkinetic and I have, for the past few days, been engaged in an editing conflict in this article. It started with his removal of two or three "citation needed" tags, with his comments in the history page dismissing their need for them by alluding to the stories where such uncited occurrences had taken place. I undid his revision, noting the unhelpfulness of "shrugging off" the need for citations, and telling him to add footnotes if he knew the issues where the events had happened. He then reverted my edit, stating that there were "several" sources. I took the article back to its previous form, stating that no part of Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research or Wikipedia:Reliable sources tells editors not to cite something if there are several sources (as only a single reliable one is needed). In featured-level and good articles, even widely known facts which no one would doubt are referenced (e.g.: In Watchmen, Moore shows a "grittier" side to the conceived notion of the superhero[1].) He again reverted my edit, with the following comment in his edit summary "not every single solitary statement in Wikipedia is cited...if so articles would look much more cluttered than they already are". Not every single solitary statement is Wikipedia is cited, but isn't it desired by the community that they were? Even if it isn't desired, aren't all featured articles, specially comics-related ones such as Watchmen or The Adventures of Tintin, in essence, "cluttered" with references at the end of every paragraph? With the only unreferenced sentences without "citation needed" tags being those which mention something which can be gathered from a previously mentioned source? I can only repeat what I said in my subsequent edit summary "You've already broken the 3-revert rule. The fact of the matter is that there is policy for citing works of fiction, but no policy stating that three footnotes 'clutter' articles". I had wrongly believed "the three-revert rule" to be something along the lines of "An editor must not perform more than three reverts on page were his edits are being contested" rather than the correct "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period". Netkinetic then appeared to use my misconception of the rule as a justification of his next reversion of my contributions, apparently disregarding my reiterated demonstration that he was violating the guidelines which make up WP:A. I again reverted his edits by stating that "Citing sources is Wikipedia policy, avoiding cluttering of footnotes (something present in all FAs) isn't", and procceeded to write up this talk page post presenting the situation and requesting mediation. While I fear Netkinetic might misinterpret something I've said as a personal attack, let me say that I have complete confidence that this issue can be resolved amicably and I'm inviting him to fully express his viewpoint on the matter, and that despite his reverting of some of my Template:superherobox edits which had nothing to with what we were disagreeing on, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just hadn't noticed I had edited something else in the article. --Ace ETP 03:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That these guidelines are valid is not in question, however that is a straw man argument towards the core discussion. Only select statements within this article are asked for WP:V when it has several unsourced statements. Why select a few threads when the entire haystack has evidence of this? Netkinetic ^(t/c/@) 04:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the Article

Was the move to Kal-L appropriate? I believe he is still usually referred to as "Superman", so "Kal-L" is not accurate. Rhindle The Red (talk) 20:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, and he is based of the Superman archetype so it would typically make sense. However, seeing how naming convention is applied elsewhere for such characters the current incarnation is appropriate for Wikipedia at this time.Netkinetic ^(t/c/@) 02:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you point me to some examples? Rhindle The Red (talk) 03:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe there was also a discussion on this, to distinguish regarding the general Earth-1/Earth-2 character conflicts. Because this one was a major character in Infinite Crisis, it was decided to label it differently. I'd check WP:COMIC for more on the matter. That group could direct you to the best discussions thus far, I'd think. ThuranX (talk) 04:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This page should be moved to "Superman (Earth-Two)" or "Superman (Kal-L)". WesleyDodds (talk) 04:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I support a move to either one (never agreed to "Kal-L" in the first place). Actually, how are most page titles for fictional characters formatted? Consistency should be the goal here. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

At first they were distinguished by secret identity (hence "Kal-L" here). However, that is a hinderance to anyone who's not a hardcore comics fan, so there's been a push towards naming the article by the superhero name while putting the secret ID in parenthesies. Superboy (Kon-El) is the most relevant example. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If that is the trend and that trend is supported by overridding voices in WP:Comics, that is fine with me.Netkinetic ^(t/c/@) 05:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I think "Superman (Earth-Two)" would be the most appropriate name, because he was created expressly to be the Earth-Two counterpart of "our" Superman, and, disregarding the fictional construct of continuity, "our" Superman was called Kal-L too back in the early 1940s. In short, it's more straightforward, clearer, less confusing, and less fancruft-y. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I know that this was previously discussed, but I can't recall where. It might've been part of the WP:COMIC DC Earths talk, there was one with respect to the 52 storyline and such ... I believe that this was a special case because the character crossed Earths, and because for a time it was explained that this was the golden age Superman, but now, really, it's far more like a Silver Age Superman who actually 'progressed'. That said, I'd be ok with Superman (Kal-L) if only I wasn't do doggone sure that somewhere in the recent past, this knockdown drag-out fight didn't just happen. Someone really needs to find it and do the research, I certainly can't until probably the weekend. ThuranX (talk) 12:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Regardless if there may have been previous discussions, I've ntoied a lot of page naming discussions fail to take into account general Wiki naming guidelines--that is, naming an article so people who may not know much about the subject can find it. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, which can we decide on once and for all: Superman (Kal-L) or Superman (Earth-Two)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I prefer "Superman (Earth-Two)". WesleyDodds (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Superman earth Two, with Superman Kal-L and Kal-L redirecting here. ThuranX (talk) 03:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Superman (Earth-Two) (like there is Batman (Earth-Two)). Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I also support the above suggestion by WesleyDodds and ThuranX.Netkinetic ^(t/c/@) 04:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone willing to move the article and fix all the redirects? WesleyDodds (talk) 00:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Superman earth two or superman kal l?Brian Boru is awesome (talk) 02:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Wesley, it would be my pleasure to do the updates. However, what name has the majority agreed with? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Wesley Dodds, myself support earth Two, and you and netkinetic have voiced support for our ideas, so Superman (Earth-Two) seems right. ThuranX (talk) 08:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Why was the page was moved to Superman (Earth Two)? Didn't we agree on the variant with the dash, Superman (Earth-Two)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, he missed the hyphen. so move it, right? ThuranX (talk) 05:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do we really need the hatnote?

I am now questioning the dablink, and am considering a removal. Do people really often mistype Kal-L, Kal-El, Kell-El, etc., when looking for a specific Superman character? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Just leave it. AniMate 06:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but I'd like to know if there is such a common misconception. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 06:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the Kal-El/Kal-L might help comic geeks out, the rest of the populace is unlikely to use either term, and then there's the matter of this guy, who has another situation entirely. I say leave it. ThuranX (talk) 11:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's the reason for the redirect in case anyone was unaware. Might I suggest we add Kell-El to the hatlink? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)