Talk:Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)

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Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: November 25, 2007

Contents

[edit] Redirect

Is this page necessary? I'm inclined to thing that Kara Zor-El should just redirect to Supergirl--Isotope23 19:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cir-El?

Should Cir-El really be listed as Kara's Genetically engineered "half-cousin"? Cir-El wasn't related to Kara at all, neither was she related to Superman. She was a homeless girl given Superman's DNA and she doesn't even exist anymore. CureWhite

Ha! you'd think she shouldn't be listed. You know... given her lack of interaction with Kara, and impact on the Superman mythos as a whole... oh and the fact THEY AREN'T REALLY RELATED, let alone that she no longer exists. apparently she must be listed on everyone remotely related to Superman.

ugh.

161.38.222.14 00:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

She does exist (read Cir-El's article), and second, Cir-EL's DNA is 50% of Kal-El's (Kara's cousin) DNA, so that makes her gentically related to Kara. And DNA is the primary factor in being related to anyone. Look at Superboy, he also has 50% of Superman's DNA, and everyone doesn't argue about his relation to Superman or Kara, so why should Cir-El be excluded when she has the same genetic relation to them.MetaStar 15:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Crisis info in the Superhero Box

Yea or Nay? It's kind of a different character, but i loathe two Superhero Boxes for the same character (like a lot of the Legion ones). Opinions anyone? Exvicious 01:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but are they the same character? As somebody who's old enough to remember the first Kara Zor-El, it's hard for me to think of them as the same. And given that Donna Troy remembers the first Kara's death (as shown in week 4 of 52), who's to say they aren't different? I'm almost to the point of suggesting a split into Kara Zor-El (Pre-Crisis) and Kara Zor-El (Post-Crisis). I won't yet, though, because I think we may find out the answers soon. So I guess my suggestion is to leave the pre-Crisis in for now and reserve the possiblity of having two SHBs if future events warrant. CovenantD 01:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Oh, and thanks for asking :-) CovenantD 01:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The Silver Age Batman is also radically different from the Modern Age but they are still the same character. Same rules apply. Kara is Kara. Period. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 23:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
That's the issue with almost every single DC Comics character. There should be a main article with the Modern Age bio, if the silver or golden age versions are too long or even more, have interacted with the Modern age, those should get separated articles.
There are several characters named Supergirl just as there are even more characters named Superman, Batman or Huntress. But those articles don't start "there are several characters named...". Those deal with the issue by being mainly about the modern age but with sections dedicated to the silver and golden age versions. However, if those articles based on the Modern era versions often spawn sub-articles about powers and weapons, I don't see why can't also spawn subarticles about versions of the same character from the other eras. Pardon my English.--The Judge 14:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits for clarity needed in the "Modern Age" section

Some of the information on the "Modern age" Kara needs to be edited for clarity of meaning. Certain sentences read as if written by someone who learned English as a second language, and it ranges from simple misuse of words to nearly incomprehensible. Some examples:

  • "It was revealed that prior before the crisis, it was because of Superboy-Prime's reality-altering ripple effect,[14] which brought Kara Zor-El back to existence."
  • "Her supposed dream world was shattered and in shambles when the very same Brainiac, concerned about the effects of a superpowered being like her slipping in madness, exposed her to green Kryptonite, sedated her and left in care of Kandorian scientist in the enlarged Rokin/New Krypton Kandor City for being "re-educated" on the uses of the last Kryptonians (with even language changed in a thousand years, Kara couldn't even be an effective member of Rokin society, thus making her an outcast again), and her "romance" with Cosmic Boy was dismissed as the side-effect of the residual zeta-beam radiaton affecting the young boy body chemistry." (I honestly have no clue what information this passage, particularly the latter half, is trying to convey, other than something bad happened to Kara.)

I've read very little of the current Kara's published appearances, and I fear that if I edited the text myself (particularly the second passage cited above), I would incorrectly interpret the meaning. Can someone more well-versed in this incarnation of the character tackle this problem? - Pennyforth 16:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First appearance

There is a discussion on the Comics Project talk page about the appropriateness of "Historical" and "Modern" in the superherobox. CovenantD 00:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Return to Earth

Isn't metioned in World War III that Supergirl was split into at least two beeings when returning from the Legion are. Only one part of her passed throu the martian manhunter and fell to earth, at least thats what i read at one of the World war III introduction pages (the black pages). This should be added, shouldn't it ? Heinrich k 06:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna go look that up.--Marhawkman 09:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's needed. the actual nature of what was seen is very open for debate.--Marhawkman 23:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
True. Still the text at the beginning of book 3 clearly states Supergirl [...] mysteriously divided, and one of her selves has fallen to earth, while the other remains lost in space. So it is very clear, what the images in book 2 are supposed to show. Heinrich k 22:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... I'd wait until they actually do something with that. right now there's really not enough to go on.--Marhawkman 19:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I put that up on the World War III page, but it was removed. Bluecatcinema 08:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smallville

So it's true that Kara is going to be a new character in Smallville season 7, thats awesome. Allilee

Yes and I think they are doing the Supergirl: Power storyline involving her reason for going to Earth. All the pieces seem to be in place (black kryptonite, the crystal in the ship, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.172.41.13 (talk) 05:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issue four

One of the variant covers for issue four, the one with silver age-like graphics, and the Black Supergirl saying "You thought you could destroy me with Black Kryptonite, Luthor, but instead you've released me, the true Supergirl!", is that based on an old comic story, or something? Bluecatcinema 09:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

While it sounds like it might be.... It was probably inspired by them rather than directly taken from one. 2 reasons, 1: the "true supergirl" thing is unique to this character. 2: Black Kryptonite is a new idea. So I think they did it just cause they thought it was cool.--Marhawkman 12:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] automated peer review

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    • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?]
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Bookkeeperoftheoccult 07:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silver Age edit

I removed a bulk of information from the silver age section that had no references. If proper citations can be found, they can be reintegrated into the article at a later date.

  • Changing her name to Linda Lee Danvers (later known as just Linda Danvers), she becomes a student at Midvale High School, from where she eventually graduates (1965). During this period she befriends telepath Lena Thorul, the sister of Lex Luthor (Lena had first appeared in Lois Lane's series and changed her name from Lena Luthor) who becomes a helper and confidant to Kara in both of her identities until she marries. In 1966 Linda earns a scholarship to study at Stanhope College, until she graduates in 1971 (her major is never revealed). In addition to Streaky, a pet cat affected by "X" Kryptonite that also possessed superpowers, she now acquires an equine companion named Comet, a magical superpowered "pet" once described by Superman as "the mightiest Super-Creature on Earth", and joins the Legion of Super-Heroes. Comet becomes Kara's inseparable companion. Originally a centaur named Biron who was magically hexed by Circe to become a super-powered horse, he is secretly in love with Kara and romances her while he is human, which happens whenever a real comet passed near Earth (another facet of Circe's hex). His invulnerability to kryptonite allowes him to save Supergirl many times. But the two grow distant when she goes on to college.
  • When dreams about her Kryptonian parents Zor-El and Allura being still alive alert her, Kara builds a machine and brings both back safely from the survival zone (where they had teleported during Argo's final moments) with the help of her adopted father's engineering talent. Eventually, Zor-El and Allura settle in Kandor, and when the city in the bottle is enlarged they lived on New Krypton/Rokyn.
  • Always popular with boys and fond of romances, Kara enjoys many boyfriend-girlfriend relationships, like her Midvale orphanage friend Richard (Dick) Malverne, her merboy friend from Atlantis Jerro, and fellow Legion of Super-Heroes member Brainiac 5, but she always shuns a serious commitment that would translate into marriage, putting her super-career first.
  • When DC Editor Mort Weisinger retired in 1971 Julius Schwartz revamped the Superman Comics, and (under Mike Sekowsky) Kara was given a big set of mod threads to wear, some to the liking of fans, others not so much. Technically more powerful than the 1/3 depowered Superman, and with no peril in sight due to the absence of green kryptonite, Kara was given a potion that made her at times non-powered and other times powered for two years, a formula that soon became tired routine. But under the editorship of Joe Orlando in 1973-4, the character was revitalized to the liking of fans, balancing the superheroics with the romantic girl.
  • Leaving her adoptive home to become an anchorwoman for KSF-TV in San Francisco, Linda has to battle her co-worker and most memorable villain from this period: Luthor's niece Nasthalthia or Nasty, who follows her doggedly and comes close to proving her dual identity. Her beau during this time is her own boss, Geoff, and his pal, Johnny.
  • Renouncing her job, she becomes a graduate student in drama at Vandyre College nearby. Supergirl begins to try to establish her own identity and experiments with a wide variety of costume and hairstyle changes; her best-known outfit from this era is a blue v-necked sweater with a small S insignia over her heart, and red hot-pants. While remaining independent from her cousin Superman, Kara maintains close ties with him as she handles a succession of short timed jobs like Student Advisor at New Athens Experimental College in Florida, and female soap-opera actress in the Secret Hearts TV series, during her "Superman Family" run.
Bookkeeperoftheoccult 09:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nomination

This article has a lot of potential, but it is seriously lacking sources. This is a very long article with very few sources. There are complete paragraphs that are with only 1 source. (See WP:CITE)

I am not posting this as your official reviewer, because If I were the official reviewer, I'd have to quick-fail the article. But because I think that this article can make GA with some little work, I'll wait for it to improve to review it. Cheers, Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 22:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It is looking solid and I have linked this in from the proposed GA section of the comics project. One thing I notice was quite a few references are replicated and the use of the "name" parameter would help tighten them up. If no one jumps on it in the next few days I'll go through and sort it out.
I'll have a more thorough look through later. (Emperor 02:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Good Article Review

I will be doing the Good Article nomination review Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Failed, some progress, but not enough. See below, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

ON HOLD, I am putting this review on hold, you have one week to address the issues raised below. Overall fairly well done but there are a large number of relatively minor issues and a few major ones that need to be addressed before it meets GA criteria. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    Generally well-written but has one major problem and some minor typos and sentences that need to be fixed. The major problem is that there is no clear explanatory reference to the other Supergirls. I read this knowing next to nothing about Supergirl / Kara Zor-El, so after her death in Crisis on Infinite Worlds, passages like: "Prior to the post-Crisis introduction of Kara Zor-El into mainstream continuity, the pre-Crisis Kara Zor-El made a startling appearance in Peter David’s Supergirl: Many Happy Returns. The current Supergirl series, at the time starring Linda Danvers, was in danger of cancellation..." make no sense (I thought the only Supergirl was dead, how can she come back in her own book?). The article on Supergirl does a good job explaining the many different Supergirls. This does not have to be nearly as detailed, but it needs an explanation from outside the universe of her place among the various Supergirls.
    • Minor typos (not all, just some examples): "arch" for "arc", or "At the end of episode "Blue" when Zor-El is once and forall defeated Kara..." should be '...for all defeated, Kara..."
    B. MoS compliance:
    Need to be consistent on many MOS issues.
    • The lead paragraphs need to accurately describe the rest of the article, nothing in them should not also be in the article (but the film is only in the lead) and nothing that is at the header / suheader level shouldn't at least be mentioned in the lead. The lead also has a one sentence paragraph that could be merged with another paragraph. Since the title of the article is "Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)" it seems as if Supergirl should be mentioned in the first sentence, not the second.
    • Always italicize book / story line titles (i.e. Many Happy Returns is italicized at first mention, then is not later). #*
    • The "Publication History" omits all mention of her appearances between her debut and death (though some are described in the Character History section below it). Did she have her own book then? I see this is in Bibliography, but could put here too.
    • The tense of plot description varies between past and present. The article should be consistent on tense for plot descriptions throughout and I believe it should always be past tense (since the books have already been published).
    • There are too many sections / subsections, so the TOC is too long. Section headers should not repeat the title (so "Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes" could just be "Legion of Super-Heroes" or maybe "Joining the Legion of Super-Heroes". Also avoid special characters in section headers (so "Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl & Batgirl" is a double no-no, I think this section could be merged with "Elseworlds" anyway.
    • Need to make sure it follows Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) consistently throughout - some early sections do this very well, some later sections seem written more from an in universe perspective.
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    For some issues the article cites title, issue number and year, but not for all. I think this should be done consistently throughout (always give the title, issue number and year if describing a single issue, a year or years and some reference issue number(s) if describing a run of issues). For example, the Death of Supergirl Issue / Cover is not identified by issue (#7, year (1985?) and title). "Modern Age" section is especially lacking in these refs to sources - makes it hard to follow - are these new books, when were they published, etc.?
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Actually cited quite well, but extraordinary claims need cites, so "The cover at right has been chosen by popular acclaim "and by a surprisingly large margin", by DC fans as: "The Best cover of a DC Comic Book of all time", in a poll conducted by the publisher in early 2007." needs a ref.
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    lead mentions the feature film, but the article does not, otherwise seems fine (though I am no expert), should be an easy fix.
    B. Focused:
    summary style used well in early parts of the article, however there is way too much detail in the latter parts. There are four paragraphs on the first 20+ years of the character, then descriptions so detailed as to include her apologies to her cat in later story arcs! The detail is there, just need to cut it back, decent job on reference to main articles in most cases, but seems to have too many subsections.
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
    No obvious problems, from talk page obvious that there are those who seem to be fans of different incarnations of the character, but does not come through here.
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
    edit history seems fine, no major talk page disputes either.
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    one image is lacking a fair use rationale (Dead Supergirl) and most of the ones after it in the article do not have the fair use rationale specifying the named article - should be fairly easy to fix.
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
    Nice selction of images, you probably should make all the images the same size (MOS says just use "thumb").
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    On hold, with seven days to fix these problems

So here are my comments, you have seven days and I will check back in two days to see how it is going and review your progress. Please ask if you have any questions, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC) Additional Comments Two points: 1) the section on the Smallville TV show should be in Other media (as it is not a comic book); 2) When you reply to this review,please do so here (below). ThanksRuhrfisch ><>°° 16:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  • In reference to your suggestion so "Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes" could just be "Legion of Super-Heroes" or maybe "Joining the Legion of Super-Heroes,
Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes is the title of an actual comic book published by DC comics in which Kara Zor-El stars as Supergirl, so I'm not sure if "joining" or "legion of super-heroes" would be an accurate title for the section. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Checking back for the two day review, glad to see some progress being made, keep up the good work. I have struck those objections which have been met. Thanks for clearing up the title of Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes, you might want to make it clearer that it is an actual comic book title in the article. Please ask if you have other questions, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Failed as still not meeting all GA criteria. Since the 2 day review there has been some progress on removing excess subheaders / reducing the TOC size. Keep up the good work, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)