Talk:Superboy (Kon-El)

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Contents 1 Split from Superboy article? 2 Geoff John's retcon 3 Geoff John's power drop for Superboy 4 DNA retcon 5 DNA retcon: Response 6 Current Continuity, whether we like it or not 7 Superboy Memorial 8 Relation 9 One Year Later pics 10 More information 11 Requested move 11.1 Survey 11.2 Discussion 12 gauntlet superboy 13 Character's death and lawsuit 14 DC Animated Universe 15 Cult of Conner 16 memorial statues, chronology? 17 Fair use rationale for Image:Superboydeath.PNG 18 Fair use rationale for Image:Reign superboy.jpg 19 Image copyright problem with Image:Connerkent.png

[edit] Split from Superboy article?

Is there a reason for creating this seperate article and splitting it off from the Superboy article? Unless I missed something recently, Kon-El *is* still called "Superboy", and thus deserves to be listed on the same page (unless it's related to the length of his section...). Anthony Dean 22:58, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think he should have a separate article (just as the various Robins, Green Lanterns, and Spider-Women do), but should it be something like Superboy (Kon-El)?--DrBat 21:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... after checking over the seperate Robins' and GLs' pages, I'd say the current title of "Kon-El" should suffice for this article. Anthony Dean 12:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I split it because his entry in the Superboy article had gotten big enough to warrent its own article.--Kross | Talk 12:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

But it would be more convenient to title the article "Superboy (modern)" WesleyDodds 03:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Superboy (modern)" seems kind of ambiguous to me. I think it would be better as either "Superboy (Kon-El)" (preferred), "Superboy (Modern Age)" (alright), or "Superboy (Post-Crisis)" (last resort). KramarDanIkabu 17:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above poster; "Superboy (Kon-El)" would be a better naming choice. Anthony Dean 01:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I will also support the above. "Modern" will become "unmodern" soon enough. Kon-El is his name, so no ambiguity from the start. Dyslexic agnostic 01:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The important thing is that it was renamed from being simply "Kon-El" which on its own is highly unfamiliar to anyone who hasn't followed the character in comics for years. I don't care as much what is put into the parentheses, but I think "Modern" suffices. Until a new Superboy emerges, he is the modern Post-Crisis version of the character, and it's inefficient anticipating a newer character who may or may not exist for years. WesleyDodds 04:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the term "Modern" is meaningless. The word itself is no longer modern—we live in a postmodern age, don't we? My vote goes to Superboy (Kon-El), so there will be no ambiguities. Kaijan 23:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Almost everyone voted for Superboy (Kon-El) and then no one did anything! 161.38.222.14 20:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geoff John's retcon

I feel the huge retcons Geoff Johns introduced in his 'Teen Titans' series should be addressed... as Retcons. They change a great deal of the character's past, personality, behavior, and powerset, thus should be outright called a 'retcon'.

I feel that Geoff Johns' retcon about making Superboy half-human and half-Kyrptonian were genius. There was really no other way to explain how Superboy could look exactly like Superman when he was a teenager. The original story is that Superboy was genetically altered to look like Superman but that doesn't make any sence how he could look like Superman as a sixteen year-old. If he was grown to full adulthood and than they alterd his apperance it would be different. Johns was also really clueless as to how powerful and what powers Superboy had. I felt that Superboy had a good death but during his life he was under used. His superiority to Superman in certain ways was never really expressed. He could have went to Kandor and still been at full power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.252.106 (talk) 19:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geoff John's power drop for Superboy

Even with Kon-El's Kryptonian powers starting to manifest themselves; Conner seems to have the same or decreased amounts of strength and invulnerablity. Superboy should be far more powerful with both tactile telekinesis and his Kryptonian powers under a yellow sun. In Teen Titans #3 Superboy is blown away and incapasitated by a hand grenade but on his second apperance in Adventures of Superman #501 he is hit by a bus filled with explosives that destroys a city block and he is barely winded. Then in Supergirl #2(written by Jeph Loeb) Supergirl dislocates Conner's jaw with one punch. But in Superboy #8 Conner takes multiple punches to the face from the vastly more powered Pre-Crisis Superboy. Although he is disoriented and in pain,his jaw and face are fine.

[edit] DNA retcon

I was under the impression that the data on Kon-El's DNA was sent to him.

[edit] DNA retcon: Response

Yes, and that data was a direct Retcon of every genetic examination Superboy ever had under the "Superboy" Title by Karl Kesel or even 'Adventures of Superman' #499.

In Adventures 499, Superboy was taken to Cadmus with Superman and Guardian in tow. The directors stated Superboy was completely human.

In Superboy #0, Superboy took an unscheduled examination at STAR Labs in Hawaii via Emil Hamiltom. Emil stated, and I quote "You are completely human of course."

And of course the hundreds of examinations by Sterling Roquette.

Geoff Johns's retcon asks that everyone, from Emil Hamilton, to the original directors of Cadmus, to Sterling Roquette... are grossly inadequete as genetic scientists... compared to Tim Drake using a laptop.

Well, Cadmus had a reason to lie to him. It's a government project, and he's not cleared. What independant, competent examinations does that leave?

[edit] Current Continuity, whether we like it or not

Until the next guy changes it (Donna Troy, what?), the retcon's current canon...And in fairness to GJ, Luthor's DC's premier criminal genius. If anybody could pull this off, and keep it under wraps, even from the rest of cadmus, it'd be him - particularly with Cadmus's director in on it. Emil Hamilton's reliability has gone pretty far south, these days, too... -AS 1/19/06

[edit] Superboy Memorial

anyone got pics of the superboy memorials? - Exvicious 01:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I know the Ed Benes variant cover for TT #34 is floating around the interweb, and I have the issue so I can scan Tony's interpretation if needed. KramarDanIkabu 01:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

i think i like the benes version, but any could be good 161.38.222.14 04:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relation

Okay. There seems to be a bit of a debate about Cir-El's relation to Kon-El. For the betterment of the article, a resolution must be reached. Shall we discuss? Ace Class Shadow 19:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I think to understand this we need to understand what a clone's relation is to his/her DNA donor. Is Superman Kon-El's father for having given him half of his DNA? Are all clones considered children of their respective donors? Brothers/sisters? I think the best way to describe their relation is to say "both clones of Superman" or something to that effect. Unless DC gives us an explanation as to how they're related I don't think we can honestly describe their relation. KramarDanIkabu 19:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that donors are very much like parents. Like sperm and egg donors. After putting a bit more thought into it, I believe Cir-El should be listed as a "half-sister" just as Kon-El's listed as a "half-brother" in her article. Heh. I now feel a little silly. I could could have come to this enlighted and justifible opinion without clottering the Talk/Discussion page if i had just given the topic some thought on my own. Ah well. Ace Class Shadow 20:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll add "biological" to the entries however. Ace Class Shadow 20:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Cir-El was retconned out of existence and the reality from which she was from would be considered an alternate timeline. furthermore, in the article itself, it says cir-el was a *human* grafted with kryptonian DNA, not making her a "half-sister" of superboy. that would be like me getting a blood transfusion from michael jordan and claiming to be his "son" and a half-sibling to his children. so even if you don't agree with the timeline, in the context of the storyline itself, cir-el is revealed to not be related to superman, let alone superboy. Exvicious 21:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

All right, Exvicious, you've been using faulty logic in your argument against Cir-El. While I'm not a big fan of Cir-El, I am even less of a fan of poor reasoning. First, a blood transfusion is in no way the same as a genetic graft. If I were to remove half of your DNA and replace with Michael Jordan's, to the effect that you took on his physical appearance and abilities, you would share 50% of your genetic material with him (which would make you related to him genetically). A blood transfusion is a simple medical procedure which in no way affects anyone's DNA. Second, if alternate timeline children can't be considered relatives in the Super Hero Box, then we need to remove Spider-Girl from Spider-Man's family, Marvel Girl II and X-Man from Jean Grey and Cyclop's relatives, so on and so forth. And third, she was returned from the timestream by Bizarro, so she is no longer retconned out of existence. If you have any valid reasons for her removal from Superboy and Superman's relatives, I would be more than happy to consider them. Until then, I suggest we return her to their relatives section. MetaStar 01:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You make really good points, psuedo-sciencewise. Well, the alternate reality thing was discussed when the superhero box was created. Alternte reality relatives are supposed to show who they're related to specifically. If alternative reality character is important enough for notable relatives, i have more. Because we're missing a lot!. All of which have effected similiarly Superboy significantly.

Batman (alternate reality foster-father, Hypertension), Power Girl (alternate reality daughter, Powertrip), Cassandra Sandsmark (alternate reality wife, Titans Tomorrow), Jerry Kent (adoptive father, deceased), Naomi Clarke-Kent (adoptive mother, deceased), Superwoman (alternative reality genetic template, Hypertension), Jor-El (alternate reality biological father, grandfather), Lara (alternate reality biological mother, grandmother), Zor-El (uncle, deceased), Alura In-Ze (aunt, deceased), Jor-L (alternate reality grandfather), Alexander Luthor Jr (brother)

He's also part Lex's son. If they're important enough to be on Lex's page, then by default, they should be on Superboy's. Lionel Luthor (grandfather, deceased), Casey Griggs (foster grandfather, deceased), Elaine Griggs (foster grandmother, deceased), Lena Griggs (aunt, deceased), Elizabeth Perske (step-mother, divorced), Contessa Erica Alexandra del Portenza (step-mother, presumed deceased), Perry J. "Jerry" White Jr. (half-brother, deceased), Lena Luthor (brother, deceased; aunt, pre-Crisis)

Exvicious 04:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

And for the record, that would make Cir-El a "genetically engineered half sister"

In the strictest sense, she's not just an alternate reality character, because a) she interacted with the mainstream reality and b) she was from an alternate future. That sets her firmly in the mainstream, regardless of her reality of origin. CovenantD 05:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If we use that logic, how come Power Girl isn't listed as an alternate reality half-cousin? She is *very* active and hasn't beened retconned out of existence. I think the debate should be whether or not this character had considerable impact on Superboy as a character.

[edit] One Year Later pics

i think the current pic more benefits Tim Drake's article and Superboy's could use pics of the memorial. I know Superman has a pic of the one in Metropolis. anyone have one of Titans Tower's memorial? Exvicious 03:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The Titans Tower memorial is on the alternate cover of Teen Titans #34, I could find a scan of it on the website Scans Daily but it would not be my own image. Timekeeper 23:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More information

This article is sorely lacking in information about Superboy's teem affiliations: Superboy and the Ravers, the Legion, and Young Justice. The Superboy section is kind of a mess, and I don't really know what else to do with it. In general, this article needs a clean-up. I'm doing the best I can, but I haven't read the entire Superboy or Young Justice. Like many other comic book article, this one has a wealth of recent info and dearth of older info .Please help me. I'm so alone. --Chris Griswold 10:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Dude. I just spend an hour working on this thing, and it's nowhere near finished. My eyes hurt. --Chris Griswold 10:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and some information on first meeting Robin in WF3 would also be awesome. --Chris Griswold 11:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Uh, it's great that you want to fix the article, but why did you change it to present tense? Superboy's dead. here's some examples of dead people articles: Gwen Stacy, Adolf Hitler, Mar-Vell. I do like how you "spent an hour" on it and then put up the cleanup tag. Exvicious 13:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

1. The character exists. Present tense. Literary present tense is Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Check your fiction, Works of fiction are generally considered to 'come alive' when read and exist in a kind of perpetual present tense, regardless of when the fictional action is supposed to take place relative to "now". Thus, generally you should write about fiction using the present tense, not the past tense. See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics#Literary present tense

2. What is your point about the cleanup tag? I want to fix this thing, but I can't do it by myself. There is a lot of garbage in this article. There was a lot of sloppy language and redundancies. Stuff that just doesn't belong there. But there's a lot more that ought to be there. I don't have my comics handy, so I need help with it. --Chris Griswold 15:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

1.) I dunno, dude. that sounds like it pertains to fictional characters in general regardless of timeframe. Not dead characters in relation to the story. but whatever, I guess we have to fix all those other articles now, like Gwen Stacy, Joseph (comics), Uncle Ben, Zor-El etc etc.

2.) That came out weird. I was just mentioning how some people "fix" articles without the tag and revise the whole thing. Exvicious 20:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I finished copy editing tonight. It still needs more information, but I have removed the tag.--Chris Griswold 03:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gauntlet superboy

"During a brief time when he lost his powers, he adopted a black T-shirt, jeans, red gloves and boots as his fighting uniform. He is fitted with a gauntlet that contains his Legion Flight Ring and a gold S-shield that can resize to protect him from gunfire. As well, he also had a utility belt. When he regained his powers, he went back to his original costume."

When did this happen? It would have to be during the Superboy run, but i don't remember that at all. Exvicious 08:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember this at all either. I know he wore gloves, but not gauntlets, and he didn't get a flight ring until recently I thought.--Wakefencer

This version of Superboy appeared somewhere between issue 75 and 82 of Superboy. I know this because I have the issues, but my collection is too mixed up at the moment for me to easily locate them and confirm which issues in specific. (I only know the issue numbers because I keep a text file of what issues I own, and I know that the de-powered Superboy arc was in the last issues of the title I bought.) He did have a Legion Flight Ring, having met the version of the Legion that existed immediately post-Zero Hour, but the device that contained it and his resizeable shield was more of a bracer than a "gauntlet"--i.e., it covered his forearm up to the wrist, but not his hand.--Pennyforth

[edit] Character's death and lawsuit

Has there been any discussion over possible reasons for the death of Superboy as it applies to the lawsuit filed by the family of Jerry Siegel? If DC does not own Superboy, why publish stories featuring him? And if the character is brought back with a completely different non-infringing origin, should that be discussed? --Mike G.

I have been looking for a good source of information on this subject; I remember an article - think it was by Hannibal Tabu - at Comic Book Resources linking the lawsuit to the death, but I can't find it. Any help? --Chris Griswold 05:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Newsarama had an article about the lawsuit, and so did Mark Evanier;

http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2006_04_06.html#011295 http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2006_04_05.html#011291 http://www.newsarama.com/general/smallville.html --Mike G.

[edit] DC Animated Universe

In the Justice League Animated Series, Season 2 episode - "Hereafter-part 1," a charcter appears behind Lois Lane and Lex Luther at Superman's Funeral, that bears a striking resemblence to Conner Kent. Is there any commentary or interviews to support this possilbe Conner appearance?

Please sign your comments. I don't beleive there are but Conner will almost definitely appear in Superman: Doomsday, the upcoming DTV. Timekeeper 14:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cult of Conner

Should we rename that section to '... and Supernova' since it's filed away under there, or maybe just '52'-- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 20:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it should be renamed. I'm pretty sure i named that section at a time when the cult was the only thing that linked Superboy to 52 (officially). and seeing as how he's not necessarily Supernova, the section should be renamed something like "52" or "52: The Return of Kon-El?"

I want to point out here that it was only called the Cult of Conner by Ralph Dibney and Wonder Girl. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 04:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I caught that too. What's the official name? --Exvicious 16:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] memorial statues, chronology?

In One Year Later, it says "Superboy memorial statues are erected in Metropolis next to Superman's memorial statue (although Superman already resurrected) and outside of Titans Tower." Now, chronologically, weren't the statues erected in 52, shortly after Superboy's death? --DrBat 18:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Superboydeath.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Reign superboy.jpg

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