Talk:Super Saiyan

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[edit] Ease of transformation for young characters

Wouldn't it be worth mentioning how easily Kid Trunks, and Kid Goten managed to achieve super saiyan? I'm not sure it was explicity explained in the anime other than Gohan being surprised by his younger brother transforming so easily, and Goten explaining that he thought everyone could do it. Could this be because they are sons of saiyans who had transformed before their conception? Grimmie (talk) 12:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It could be mentioned, but the part about them being able to achieve Super Saiyan so easily because they were concieved after their fathers reached SSj is purely fan speculation. Also, we can't be sure when exactly Vegeta acheived Super Saiyan, or if he was a Super Saiyan when Trunks was concieved. Toriyama never actually explained why Goten and Trunks had it so easy when the older characters had such a difficult time. The issue with the Dragon Ball series is that the rules and/or details that Toriyama makes earlier in the series are sometimes forgotten, discarded, or changed all together. This creates canon plotholes and inconsistencies, which ultimately makes it harder for us to write these articles. The Super Saiyan concept has been revamped several times by Toriyama himself, as well as other things like Saiyan tails and such. Goten, Trunks, and Bra don't have tails while Gohan did, even though all three characters are of the same percentage of Saiyan heritage. This of course can be contributed to Toriyama's forgetfulness to actually design the characters with tails. It has nothing to do with "human genes being more dominant in those characters" as many fans have fabricated through the years.--VorangorTheDemon (talk) 15:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Interesting! Thanks for the reply. Grimmie (talk) 12:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, that "dads were Super Saiyan when they were conceived" is just fan speculation, and do I believe that? Well, maybe a little bit, but that couldn't have been the total reason. They got some Super Saiyan genes, but the only reasonable reason is that they just happened to pull it off using the SSJ genes. Toriyama probably thought, "Well, every other Saiyan or half-Saiyan can go Super Saiyan, so I'll just make Goten & Kid Trunks do it too."

In regards to whether Vegeta was able to become Super Saiyan when he concieved trunks or not (I'm talking about both timelines), In the Main Timeline, the Manga doesn't explicitly state how and when he got his Super Saiyan form, (though Vegeta implied that it had to due with being pure evil), but the Anime seems to hint that Vegeta became a SSJ around the time when he was searching for Goku in the year between the Frieza Saga and Trunks Saga.), and in regards to Trunk's/Cell's timeline, I don't know if this was in the Manga, but the Anime seemed to hint that Vegeta also became a Super Saiyan in that Timeline as well (due to the fact that both the opening Narration of the Trunks special AND Future Trunk's recollection of the apocalyptic future in the episode "Ghosts from Tomorrow", so I can't say that it was because of Vegeta being an SSJ when Kid Trunks was concieved, whileas he wasn't an SSJ when Future Trunks was concieved due to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.223.196 (talk) 00:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Vegeta became a Super Saiyan not too long before the androids appeared. How could you possibly think he was a Super Saiyan between the Frieze and Trunks saga? Did you not see how obssessed with it he was? How much he talked about finding that power one day, how he mentioned to Goku that during their three year training he would achieve this? When Vegeta tells us how he achieved this before fighting #19 you can see he's wearing his recently updated saiyan armour in the flashback, which he didn't have before the android saga. 203.114.164.219 (talk) 09:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sigh, and yet, at least in the Anime, he first transformed into one IN SPACE, where the only way he could have done it was during the Garlic Jr. Saga, since, 1. He stole the ship in the anime once, and I don't think Bulma or Dr. Briefs would allow him to pull off such a stint again, and 2. the Ship (or at least one of them) was destroyed by Vegeta when he took his training a bit too far (and he was hospitalized as a result.). THAT'S what I meant by that.

And even IF it was just before the Androids saga rather than between the Frieza and Trunks Saga, it was proven in both Future Trunk's flashback of "Ghosts of the Future" AND the opening scene of "the History of trunks" that Vegeta also became a SSJ in his/cell's timeline (Ironically, those same scenes also depicted his death at the hands of the Androids).

Weedle_McHairybug —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.223.196 (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Structure

The structure of this article is in question. You can help reach a consensus by voting here. UzEE (Talk • Contribs) 11:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Info about the Legendary Super Saiyan

I'm not entirely convinced that all the info regarding the Legendary Super Saiyan is accurate. I don't think it's proven that the chi increases as battle continues, and I can't find reference supporting the claim that it does. I also can't find any evidence to support the fact that the form has no chi consumption. I've attempted to edit it several times to where it doesn't make those claims, but someone keeps reverting my edits. Just stating the movies or what Daizenshuu it's in isn't enough, we need to site the exact page or exact original Japanese movie quote. Otherwise it's WP:OR --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 18:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Toriyama-drawn Super Saiyan 4

In the SSJ4 section it mentions that Toriyama drew his own version of the form and included it in a DVD set. I think it would be interesting to see this and/or have it in the article, are there any pictures available? - Norse Am Legend (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[1] scroll down to see it. There is a better one out there though.-- bulletproof 3:16 03:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that the article should include it, but I don't think it should be required. O yea, and thanks BulletProof for finding more references about the Legendary SSj. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 14:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Super Saiyan 4 Full Power

Has that been confirmed? -Kazi22 Talk 29 January 2008

No. There are no other "Full Power" SSj forms beyond the first form. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

§== False Super Saiyan ==

In my opinion, this is kaioken. I saw this first on the first duel between Son Goku and Vegeta when Vegeta went to earth. Also, I think the reason of the yellow aura is because of using two times kaioken which haves the equivalent body of a Super Saiyan 2nd Grade. This needs confirmation though so I do not know if this is right yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dairyll (talk • contribs) 10:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

False Super Saiyan was a form invented by Toei for movie 4. It does not appear in the series, other then a filler episode during the Other World Tournament saga. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

False Super Saiyan never appeared in the series. That filler episode during the Other World Torunament Saga, that was just Goku in his base form, just powered-up, not even Super Saiyan or Super Kaio-ken or anything else. Oh, and Kaio-ken x2 - that never had even a spark of yellow. The first time we ever saw a bit of yellow in a Kaio-ken form was when Goku powered up to Kaio-ken against Commander Ginyu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Vegetto (talk • contribs) 12:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Per Vorangor, (Nice to see you). False Super Saiyan has confirmed sources, Toei for instance. And using two times Kaio-Ken still doesnt warrant the yellow aura. That would simply be original research which is what we dont want in articles.  UzEE  23:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Besides all of that, (excellent arguements in their own rights) we have also seen twenty times Kaio-Ken and Super Kaio-Ken, which both retain the red aura. Sean The Spartan 17:37, 20 February 2008

[edit] Super Saiyan 4

Hey, I was just looking up random resaerch to look up, and come to find that SS4 is not on here! I doubt anyone has any objection to even saying that SS4, while it may not have been in the manga (I'm not sure on that, I've never actually read the manga's, but I don't know if it is in there or not), it was at least in the American anime. I would just add it myself, but I'm new to this and it would most likely be taken down due to lack of references on my part. Just my opinion. --TriCheeseSorrow (talk) 02:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

SSj4 was removed by a vandal several days ago, however those edits have since been reverted. None of Dragon Ball GT was manga, the manga ended at the end of Z. Also, none of the movies were manga either, which explains why there is a separate section with Toei (the animation company who made Dragon Ball) only forms. If you are going to be frequently editing the Dragon Ball articles, might I suggest that you join Wikipedia's Dragon Ball project (WP:DBZ) --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 08:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I would also thank you for NOT just going ahead and editing the article. Instead bringing the matter here is a lot more easier for everyone. I'll drop you a welcome note I made for WP:DBZ. It would help you get started. Enjoy.  UzEE  12:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Your welcome, UzEE. Also, I saw the updated information. Doesn't SS4 base some of its energy off of the Sayin tail transformation (the giant ape)? I know I read that somewhere, it may have been a magazine. I assume either that idea is just in the American version, or that there just wasn't a reference for it. I will try to find the magazine in which I read it in.--TriCheeseSorrow (talk) 04:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The magazine I was talking about was Beckett Collector DBZ, volume 4 number 7, page 14. I quote, "...This is even not technically Super-Saiyan 4 per say, rather this is actually what would be called Legendary (True) Super-Saiyan 2. In other words, it is not a form that comes after the "normal" Super Saiyan 3 we saw in Dragon Ball Z. Instead it follows Legendary Super-Saiyan, (the Golden Monkey also known as the REAL Super-Saiyan form according to the anime)...". The article was written by Greg Werner and this particular issue was the July 2003 edition. Also, where did all of the pictures on this site go? It looks so naked and unexciting without them.--68.186.217.203 (talk) 07:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Full Power Super Saiyan

I have an argument


I submit that while originally Vegeta may have utilized an inefficient form of Super Saiyan, by the Majin Buu Saga, he gained complete mastery of the form (he did transform into SS2, afterall) and so should be included in the list of confirmed users of Full Power Super Saiyan. Anonymous, well-meaning fan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.26.97 (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue is that there is no definative pre-requisites for SSj2. And Vegeta has never been confirmed to be a Full Power SSj, so stating that he is would be WP:OR.--VorangorTheDemon (talk) 12:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I also agree that it is never stated that Vegeta went Full Power SSJ, although there is some speculation about him having maintained it in the Majin Buu Saga. However, with the amount of training that he did, it is not impossible.

I have a arguement involving vegeta as well, Vegeta uses the false super saiyan in the first saga —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.200.50.171 (talk) 23:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Vegeta never used the False Super Saiyan in the first saga, which was the Saiyan Saga. He wasn't even close to going False Super Saiyan, and anyway, he was totally outmatched by Goku in his Kaio-ken form. The only person who ever went False Super Saiyan was Goku in the Lord Slug movie.

[edit] DBGT Perfect File

The Dragonball GT Perfect File suggests females can transform, and also states Pan had the potential. The latter does contradict Toriyama's statement that Pan's blood is too diluted, but not whether or not females with at least half saiyan blood can or cannot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.32.221 (talk) 17:03, March 13, 2008

True, but we use the Daizenshuu, and try to avoid using the Perfect Files whenever possible. The reason we do this is because the Perfect Files is filled with so called "facts" that contradict the Daizenshuu. One example of this is that the Perfect Files lables Majin Vegeta as a SSj2, and not regular Vegeta. Also Gotenks is labled as an SSj2 in the Perfect Files, and not labled in the Daizenshuu, even though we all assume that he had the ability to transform because he had access to the third form. And to be more relevant, another error in the perfect files is the one that you pointed out: stating that Pan could transform even though the Daizenshuu stated that she couldn't. Even though we editors are anal about using the Daizenshuu, we also keep in our minds that the Daizenshuu is not perfect, but it is more reliable then the Perfect Files because of the fact that it was not written by Toei like the Perfect Files were, but by Toriyama's manga team. If you feel that this needs to be noted, I suggest putting it on Pan's page and not here, her page needs to be expanded anyway or else it is going to be merged into a list. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 21:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Good suggestion. Though I've always been curious if females are capable if they have at least half saiyan blood. Should this be brought up or left out due to lack of evidence?

[edit] This is an article, not a guide

The reason why I erased the forms is because this is an article about the Super Saiyan, not a guide, therefore there is no reason to point out the different physical traits of every Super Saiyan form. We need to talk more about the evolution of the concept from OOU instead of how each form looks and is achieved in the series. There's also a reason why there's a box now at the top of the page that states that there's alot of unimportant information regarding this subject. Arguments? --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 11:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the forms don't need their own sections, but I think the least we could do is give a short description of each in the Appearence part. I don't really see what would be uncyclopedic about it.-KojiDude (Contributions) 15:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reception data

I'm sure we're able to get this section filled up. Removing it won't help it's case. Any ideas? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You could leave it removed until you have something to actually write. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a blank section. Get a starting sentence at least.--KojiDude (Contributions) 18:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't find much of any reception on the net, save for a few action figures. You? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I suppose (if you had a cite) there's the wide range of parodies. I always thought of a Reception section as stating more of how fans reacted to whatever the article is about.--KojiDude (Contributions) 19:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Parodies ... you must mean Neko Majin? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. You could probably merge it with the "In other Media" section, too.--KojiDude (Contributions) 22:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)