Talk:Super Saiyan/Archive 1

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Dragon Ball AF

SSJ5 is fanon. It doesn't exist. Dragon Ball AF doesn't exist and never existed as something other than a hoax. Adding it to this page does not create a more complete or accurate list. There is no encyclopedic rationale for including this information here. It might be appropiate to have a short mention saying that it doesn't exist, but to speculate even on who would have reached it if it had been reached is stretching things. I vote to cut it out. JRP

If SSJ5 is to be in here at all, it should pertain onlt to what was in the series. Dragon Ball AF doesn't exist. DBAF is a perpetual hoax pulled on "newbies" and there have been many "confirmed" sightings and even some good fan art. But that's all. It's not factual and that type of speculation doesn't belong in Wikipedia. JRP 04:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dragon Ball AF exists, it is a manga that has been published, the creators are fans of the Dragon Ball series, and in it they created they're own ssj5 and such. It is NOT however endorsed by Mr. Akira or any other Dragon Ball series related creators, as I said before it was made by fans. (Unsigned)

See Dragon Ball AF. It's not real. It can't be published without the copyrights to Dragon Ball, which fans would not be able to get.

Daishokaioshin 14:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That is right and to add on to that,even if it did exist. Toei and Toriyama has never acknowledge this so call fan fiction based series with mean that fan may keep it going but it will never be part of the true existing DB universe.

Heat P

What does SSJ5 really look like?

I`ve look aruond in the internet.But i did only see one picture of SSJ 5 . But they saiy it`s a fake. WHAT DOES SSJ5 REALLY LOOL LIKE? And what`s wit`s the rumoer with SSJ10 and 12? I think its all a fake.

There is no SSJ5. There are fake pictures around the internet of SSJ5, but these are created from 3rd parties, and fans. The most common one looks like a cross between SSJ3 and SSJ4, but with silver hair, and fur. http://dragonball183.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ssj5.jpg

It was a nice idea, but it doesn't exist. Bulma mentioned that she could use the machine that transformed Vegeta to make them go even higher in the GT series, but it didn't happen. puk 00:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think SSJ5 looks like: like SSJ3 hair, expect white, a big muscule increase, and an increase in speed. probably like the Legendary Super Sayian form. In the phony websites, they even add a tail.

Magic Pants

There's one thing I don't understand about ssj4. Whenever someone goes super sayian 4 there old clothes disapear and a new pair of leather pants apear on them. I don't understand why there clothes change. There's nothing wrong with there old clothes. In previous super sayain forms, just there physical body changed, not their clothing. Also, where do the pants come from. Do they just materialize out of thin air.

It's like asking why do dance fusions create Buu-like clothing for no reason, while earring fusions fuse the clothing of both partners. It's because Toriyama's a genius and a dumbass at once. ^_^ Oh, and why does SSJ4 form counteract any magical-youthenizing (as in GT?)

At least the dance was magical in nature. SSJ4 is supposedly just a transformation like any other. The pants thing is wierd.

Keeping in mind that GT isn't canon, we can only blame SSJ4 pants on TOEI animators

On the subject, it's a mistake to say SSJ4s 'get their black hair back' since at least one of them had red hair. I think it was Gogeta.

Neither Goku nor Vegeta (the two Gogeta is comprised of) have red hair in SSJ 4 form. One could then say that it's just some random result of the magic of fusion, and not a by product of the transformation itself, since neither of them have this occur under "normal" circumstances.

I always assumed Gogeta's backward colors were from Vegeta and Goku's tails not touching.

The maigc pants just appear because akira toryama just wanted to try to make the look different. If u have a problem y dont u try to make it look better

Akira Toriyama didn't design Super Saiyajin 4, thus the pants weren't his idea. And why should anyone 'try to make it look better'? Any artwork wouldn't be considered canon, so there's no point.

Daishokaioshin 06:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I've said it a million times before. GT is dumb. None of it makes sense. There's no point in debating anything about it. KojiDude 18:20, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Edits by Infinare

Infinare has recently made a number of edits to this article. Some are good. More are fanon, unnecessary, or unsubstantiated. I don't want to revert them all. Anyone want to help me clean it up? JRP 02:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Mystic is not a super saiyan form and its not a saiyan form. Humans and nonsaiyans can become mystic. If you add mystic why not add kaikoen? Better yet add potential. Since Guru unlock gohan's potential not to mention Krillin. All the Old Kia did is unlock Gohan's hidden powers not give him a new "super saiyan" form.

Wrong Super Saiyan Levels

Please note those Super Saiyan levels might be innacurate since officially there are only four stages, the 2nd Grade 3rd Grade and Legendary are just speculation. They seem to be just power boosts due to a character's mood.

Actually, 2nd, 3rd, and legendary Super Saiyan (levels) are all real. The 2nd level (not SSJ2) was first seen when vegeta was fighting the 2nd form cell, and called himself "Super Vegeta" the 3rd was first witnessed when trunks powered up and fought perfect cell. And lastly, Legendary is seen in movie 8 and 10 when Broly transforms from SSJ

Changing Correct Information

I made several corrections to the information on this page, only to have it reverted to the older version by Infinare and HCTPdp. Examples of things which were changed from the corrected version include stating that it is necessary to have a powerlevel of 'at least 800,000' to become a Super Saiyajin, when it is NEVER stated ANYWHERE in canon that this is the case. We don't KNOW what Goku's base powerlevel was when he went SSJ, because powerlevels ceased to be relevant. The last known powerlevel given is Freeza's in Henshin One (his Second Form) which is 1,000,000. Goku's powerlevel before Freeza's is given is 180,000. Of course this increases after he is healed in the rejuvenation tank. But we do not know by how much, so giving numbers that are not canon is providing inaccurate information.

Another change from what I fixed, is saying that it is canon for SSJ1 to modify one's powerlevel by 'a factor of fifty'. This is NOT canon, as it is not stated anywhere in the manga or anime, or by Akira Toriyama in interviews. In fact, he has specifically said that the power of a Super Saiyajin cannot be measured by conventional math.

There were also numerous other corrections I made, ranging from grammatical and punctuation errors being fixed, to the inaccuracy of claiming that having one's sleeping power awoken (what fans call 'Mystic') is a Super Saiyajin level, because only a Saiyajin ever attained this state. This is untrue. Rou Dai Kaioshin (Elder Kai in the english dub) performed this ritual on others in the past. I explained when this happened, and how it resulted in his being sealed in the Z Sword. This explanation was removed entirely.

Please stop changing correct information while in the process of fixing Infinare's modifications. Thank you. - Daishokaioshin/24.20.250.137

Daishokaioshin, where was that section about the Elder Kai being sealed in the sword. I wanted to read about that one... puk 00:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

SSJ4

It is understood that some fans belief that SSJ4 is the true Legendary Super Saiyan, based on two factors. First, it is the most powerful, of course. Next, during the Freiza Saga, Vegeta recounted the legend of the Super Saiyan, mentioning that it could only be maintained in Ape Form (a picture of a Golden Ape may have been shown, I don't remember). Since this stage is necessary to become a SSJ4 the first time, it would be reasonable to believe that the previous Super Saiyan either was a Super Saiyan 4 or on his/her way to being one. This would have been hard to tell since way back then, most of those witnessing the Super Saiyan soon found themselves among the dead. It's all just a theory. - Will

Minotast: But... a theory as stated is just a speculatory hypothesis that can be supported by hard evidence. Take for instance the many scientific theories that we regard as facts in terms of determining the constantly tilt in the axis of Mars. It would be entirely foolish and wrong to dictate that SSJ4 might not very well be the true Legendary Super Saiyan form. Moreover, this concluded factor is supported by the fact that SSJ4 is not an actual level of Super Saiyan.

http://www.dragonballmaster.com/index.php?id=fanfic/transfromations.html

As I hope you can clearly see... there is much controversary over SSJ4 being an actual Super Saiyan form. Perhaps we should think more logically and imply it as Oozaru Saiyan. Since its detailed look is sort of between the appearance of an Oozaru and a saiyan. In continuation, we can associate SSJ4 as an alternative wording for Oozaru Saiyan.

But there's the problem of SSJ4 being a GT creation, not something AT would have been alluding too in the Freeza Saga.

No one knew what a super saiyan looked before Goku went super saiyan.

Minotast: Actually Vegeta rather had a relevant idea as to what a super saiyan would appear as. However, he had no idea that Super Saiyans have blond hair or that the form was much more than having the power level far beyond that of a typical saiyan warrior.

Those that saw the super saiyan long before goku was born didn't exactly describe what a super saiyan look like.

Minotast: The same concept is comparable in the appearance of the craft that human beings would use to travel to the moon.

Vegeta was imaging what a super saiyan would look like.

Minotast: Vegeta is not as imaginative as you think he is. He had a good idea, but he based his assumptions solely on achieving a high power level.

At one time Vegeta even thought he was a super saiyan when in reality he is in his normal state.

Minotast: That was because Vegeta... based his whole principle and idea of what it means to be a super saiyan by having a power greater than that of typical saiyans. At least he thought it would be enough to defeat Frieza without any difficulties.

The reason Vegeta thought he was a super saiyan is because he became stronger.

Minotast: Half true. Vegeta believed he was becoming strong enough to defeat Frieza. This statement is the complete truth to what you should have said.

Frieza even mentions that neither he nor Vegeta saw a super saiyan before Krillin died for the second time.

Minotast: Frieza was speaking for himself. By the way I corrected a grammar error in your statement.

Super Saiyan was thought to be a myth since it didn't happen for so long.

Minotast: Wrong word... the correct one is... legend

http://www.answers.com/topic/legend http://www.answers.com/myth I am taking credit for the first paragraph that states the two factors. After thinking about it, those were probably irrelevant since it seems the saiyan race as a whole seemed to gain power over time. Only one super saiyan probably arose since the conditions were difficult to fulfil if you were the average saiyan (to be nearly as strong as Freiza, then become enraged....).

Super Saiyan 4 Addition

I made a small addition for the Super Saiyan 4. It was left out that the Elder Kai was the only one who ever knew of the SSJ4 powerup and the requirement of the tail extension and looking at a moon or planet object. smitheo1/10 Jan 2006.0455

Question: Does anyone have a link to the SSJ4 image that Akira Toriyama officially drew?

Yeah, I'd like to see it too. KojiDude 19:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Mystic or Super Regular

It also seemed to me that the Elder Kai actually did nothing to train Gohan. He had a sleeping power within him that was surfaced whenever he was angry. The Elder Kai told him that the powerup was finished a long time ago, so it didn't take much to release it. Eventhough it is called mystic, it still was not stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. He couldn't possibly beat Super Buu (Fused Gotenks and Piccolo) even at mystic. It would have taken a fused being to win. With all that being said, Gohan would have been at a tremendous disadvantaqge against Kid Buu since he put off training too much. smitheo1/10 Jan 2006.0455

It was stronger. Old Kai unlocked his potential and even extended it, and his potential was stated to be greater than Goku's, so he was indeed stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and even SSJ3 Gotenks.

Yeah, that makes sense, because neither Vegeta nor Goku could even scratch Super Buu (Gohan fused). Wish there really was an Old Kai...lol. smitheo1/ 17 Jan 2006 0109

There is just one thing though...If it's stronger than SSJ3, and the Old Kai told Gohan to just go SSJ and his hair didn't change, what form of Super Saiyan is it. I know the word 'mystic' only is noted because of the DVD title, but could this just be Gohan's full power? I figured that the SSJ3 and 'Supreme' SSJ (since the power-up was done by a supreme kai) were equal. Buu could sense Gohan's power from Earth and Gohan could sense SSJ3 Goku from the Kai planet. puk 23:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as 'Supreme SSJ'. 'Mystic' is not a form of Super Saiyan. Gohan did not 'just go SSJ and his hair didn't change'. 'Mystic' is when someone's full potential is unlocked, allowing them to remain at their full power at all times, without needing to waste time and energy with transformations. You are right about it being Gohan's full power, though. -- Daishokaioshin

Yeah. Supreme was just something I thought of....I guess since he was the only one to pull out the Z sword (not even the Supreme Kais could do this), he get the reward of the Mystic power-up, well at least until it broke. puk 00:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Except it didn't broke. That was just Toei filler, in the manga Gohan kept the "Mystic" power forever. Mordac 15:10, 21 January 2006

I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan, simply because Goku is said to be the strongest charecter and sayin at the end of DBZ. And Vegeta's exact words are: "You are better than me, kakarott. You are the best." The only thing that would make Mystic better than SSJ3 is if the SSJ3 ran out of power.This shows what vegita says KojiDude 18:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

We saw Mystic Gohan wipe the floor with Super Buu. When Goku & Vegeta tore Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks from their pods in Buu's head, Vegeta notes how much Buu's power has decreased and declares its time to break out but Goku stops him, stating that even though Buu's power has go down tremendously, he's still too much for the two of them. Mystic is stronger.

Minotast: Indeed Mystic is stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Goku well noted that neither Goku no Vegeta would be able to take on Super Buu on his own. Even together Super Buu was more than a match for Vegeta and Goku. Moreover, Super Buu clearly stated that Mystic Gohan is stronger than he is.

SSJ3 Gotenks

I added why Gotenks was able to control SSJ3 better than Goku, unless someone has an idea from the series that's different of course.puk 01:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Legendary medium?

Now I watched the first movie (Broly's) again and well Broly seemed to do a double power up of some sort. It took extreme anger to power-up to his Legendary mode. The movie kinda threw things off for me here. Did he learn a regeneration technique or was Broly designed instead of being born? (That information isn't even revealed anywhere. That question I made is from the Bio-Broly movie since they used a blood sample to regenerate him, so someone eventually did since he resurfaced again in Broly's second movie.) Is it because the legendary super saiyans are able to increase their body mass like Broly's? I figured that Goku didn't have time to train in that form against Perfect Cell and instead focused on becoming a SSJ without powering down and using so much muscle mass to increase his strength. Not only that, he said it had a weakness and never gave it a name.

Now Trunks (Future) trained in this form, but I seem to understand that the form is called 'Ultra SSJ' which is not given a name in the series. The same goes with Vegeta. Now I see that Broly lost his eyes and control of good will in this 'Legendary' mode. (Trunks was close until Krillin talked him into his good senses.) Could this have been Legendary Trunks instead of USSJ2 Trunks?

Maybe Broly never knew about any new types of SSJ levels since he was controlled by Paragus.

According to the video game, DBZ Budokai 3, Atari designed the form the be 'Legendary' instead of a normal SSJ. USSJ Trunks is just called Super Trunks for instance. Maybe there was something I missed or this is the reason this movie was not really included as a part of a timeline either. --puk 01:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no 'Legendary SSJ' in canon, aside from Golden Oozaru, which appeared in DBZ. Broli is not canon in any way, shape or form. The Broli movies don't make sense because the writers didn't put any effort into it. They just wanted to make money off of DBZ. After all, babies do not 'hate' people. It wouldn't matter if Goku was crying constantly when Broli was a baby, as he was an INFANT. Infants aren't mentally or emotionally developed enough to hate things, let alone remember such for their entire life, until adulthood, where they suddenly recognize someone they saw as a baby, and go berserk with hatred they never should have had to begin with. The writers of the Broli movies were dumbasses.

As for Trunks, his 'eyes disappearing' was just a dramatic effect. Trunks even said that he had control the entire time. There is no link between USSJ and LSSJ, beyond the similarities in physical characteristics resulting from the transformations. However, note that Broli actually increased in height (for some bizarre reason) when he transformed, whereas Trunks did not. His legs became more muscular, adding a couple inches, sure, but his bones didn't just decide to lengthen all of a sudden, like Broli's did. This would mean that LSSJ actually has properties which allow it to modify the skeletal structure of an individual, in addition to increased muscle mass. I could theorize on how this is possible, but I hate Broli like nobody's business, so I won't bother.

Broli surviving the explosion of the planet is explained by the writers of the movies as essentially, 'Broli wuz 2 strong 4 dying wen planet explod ROFLMAO!'. Seriously. He didn't die because he was 'too strong'. So that's how he survived, and managed to come back in the second Broli movie. How he got a spaceship and everything to make it to Earth doesn't even have an explanation at all.

Anything else? --Daishokaioshin

Its called Outside Influence Psychological Instability. When you're new born, you're still opening up to everything around you, and are very unstable, you're also very sensitive to things. The constant crying by Goku created a deep instability within Broly as he grew up, the noise bore into his subconcsious, which is what made him so uncontrollable, he was constantly responding to the drilling pain in his skull from Goku's crying.

How the hell he remembered Goku was the one who did it is beyond me.

3bulletproof16 23:35, 21 January 06 (UTC)

Who added in the information about Broly's form being dubbed by Funimation. Because this form is labled in the sixth daizenshuu "densetsu (legand or legendary)no supa saiyajin".

Ok, I can't say for sure without seeing that page, but the phrase is used repeatedly in the movie. "Densetsu no Supa Saiya-jin," is said over and over again while Vegeta is whining like a bitch. it isn't a label of his form, it's a description of who he is. They aren't saying "Brolli is in Legendary Super Saiya-jin form." They are saying that he IS the Legendary Super Saiya-jin. Onikage725 17:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC) ___

Ok, Brolli was created to explain the problem of the multiple Super Saiyans. Only one Super Saiyan was seen every thousand years, but this would have the show contradict itself when all the others go Super Saiyan. So what they did was create Brolli. To explain this, Brolli's transformation is actually Legendary Super Saiyan. It is a form that acts sort of like Gohan's mystic potential, as in Brolli was born with the ability to use the Legendary Super Saiyan form. Brolli only can go Legendary Super Saiyan, this is because Legendary Super Saiyan give its user the ability to grow stronger while in the LSSJ form. As he gets stronger, his body increases to accomadate his power.

~Thess~

___

That is not at all said in any of the three movies he is in (again, they don't mention/label any form, rather they simply say that he is the legendary Super Saiya-jin.) Actually to be fair when Goku arrived on Namek, Vegeta mentioned the legends, wondering if Goku was the next to achieve the legendary status of Super Saiya-jin. That doesn't make SSJ Goku "LSSJ." Also Brolli is clearly seen in SSJ form in movies 8 and 10. His increasing of his mass to generate more power is pretty much the same thing Trunks did, just to a much higher degree. Nowhere in the films does it state otherwise, and the only thing I've ever seen people use to validate this LSSJ thing is FUNimation information releases (as if that's remotely credible) and untranslated references to the Daizenshuu citing the words Densetsu no Supa Saiya-jin, which is a phrase uttered repeatedly in movie 8 and has nothing to do with what transformation state he is in. All I'm saying is there ought to be some credible proof. Maybe someone who knows the language could translate the section? Or if it's been done, someone who's seen this can list a link? Onikage725 17:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC) ____

True, they never directly state it in the movies, but this is information I have gathered while reading different things. Such as Interviews with Akira, and notes that he wrote about Brolli. Just things like that, I mean sure you can dispute it and you can say it doesn't really mattter cause Brolli isn't canon... But if you want to go that way there is plenty that shouldn't necessarily be considered canon. Either way, that is my personal opinion on Brolli which I concluded from doing research.

As for Brolli bulking up being the same thing as what Trunks did... That has no grounds. Trunks gained muscle mass alone, this slowed him down. What Brolli did was not only increase his muscle mass, but, he changed his skeletal structure, and defying the laws of physics didn't slow down at all. ~Thess~

We could argue whether Brolli slowed down until the cows come home, to be honest. The fatal flaw of DBZ is that there are only so many ways to show a character being fast or powerful, and they exhausted most of them early on. As I've said elsewhere, my favorite example is how it was supposed to be all impressive that the fully charged Makankosappo destroyed a mountain, yet Piccolo could destroy cities in Dragonball with the Bakurikimaha (which in turn did precisely dick to Raditz). Specifically on the issue at hand, I don't think brolli did much to show he didn't lose speed. We don't know how fast he may have been as an SSJ, because he was only in that state for a short period of time. Aside from dodging some punches and proving he was a good sprinter, he didn't do anything that usually trademarks a "fast" warrior in DBZ (like rush battling, leaving after-images, close-range teleporting, etc). His battle style had more in common with bruisers like Bojak, Super 13, and Garlic Jr than with...say...Freeza or Cell. Also, in Trunks' fight with Cell, we know he was slow because Cell told us so. He pulled some seemingly fast maneuvers and some fast punch flurries and generally moved faster (from an animation standpoint) than Brolli ever did.Onikage725 17:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the 'Only one Super Saiyajin appears every thousand years' (in some cases it is stated as three thousand, and others five thousand, depending on the source) was just something added in by the writers for the anime. It isn't in the manga, and doesn't really make sense. There was only ever one Super Saiyajin before Goku transformed, so how would anyone know that another would appear in a thousand years, or that it was a regular event for one to appear each thousand year period? This is an example of the writers not thinking things through, and not sticking to the original source material when they tried to be creative. Also, the only reason there was one 'Legendary Super Saiyajin' before, was because the qualities necessary for transforming were not present in any other Saiyajin before Goku and Vegeta came along. I don't know if this was some kind of prophecy or what, about there being another SSJ in a thousand years, but there was reference later in DBZ to 'the Super Saiyans of legend', by Vegeta, meaning that there was more than one SSJ in the past, which contradicts what has already been stated about there only ever being one SSJ before.

I'm not sure if this multiple SSJs thing was added in by the anime writers or not (it seems likely, given their track record), but if it is taken as canon, then it would mean that there could have been more than one Super Saiyajin at a time at some point in the past. There doesn't have to be one 'Legendary Super Saiyajin', because Goku and Vegeta both became Golden Oozarus, the form that the original Legendary Super Saiyajin took. The other forms of SSJ are pale imitations of true SSJ, INCLUDING Broli's transformation. He isn't 'the Legendary Super Saiyajin', regardless of what is stated by the movie makers or the company that dubs the movies or anyone else. He's non-canon, he doesn't matter, it was a bad idea to make the character. It just confuses the issue of Super Saiyajins further to decide that one character that is just made up on the fly is the single Legendary Super Saiyajin.

Also, note that Vegeta says that Super Saiyajins are supposed to be invincible warriors with no equal, according to legend, yet even in SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta are unable to match Ii Shenron. Legends are hardly accurate sources of information. Just because there was supposed to be one Legendary Super Saiyajin, based on myths and stories, doesn't mean that it is actually the case.

Daishokaioshin

I agree. Actually the whole legend doesn't make sense. It implies that not only have the Saiya-jin been around for over a millenia, but that at some point one of their rank attained the ability to become a Super Saiya-jin (even if it was only in Oozaru form). We could assume that he (or she for all we know) was a freak like Brolli, born with immense power. But since Brolli isn't canon and the legend was introduced in comparison with Goku, the best assumption is that the strength was gained through training and/or combat. Also, if Saiya-jin all as a race gain large power increases after being wounded in battle, and as a race their sole occupation is fighting, and if children are born with more genetic potential than their parents, how is it that hafter a thousand or more years they were still milling about in the low thousands on the power scale?Onikage725 17:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Daishokaioshin: First you mention the 'Only one Super Saiyajin appears every thousand years' legend is not cannon(which is true), but after you go and mention GT, ie plotholes galore, that is as cannon as the movies, ie not at all, as your source for the conclusion of the argument? The legendary super saiyajin is Goku, there's even a manga volume(or is it chapter), called "The Legendary Super Saiyan", which features Goku's transformation. Mordac 19:10, 3 February 2006

"This maniacal form is what was known to the Saiyans as Legendary Super Saiyan."

See, there it is right there. That line doesn't make any damn sense. Noone refers to his FORM. His stage of SSJ wasn't dicussed AT ALL. His "form" wasn't "known as" anything, it wasn't even mentioned. I'll go home and write up the script for the movie (japanese and english if need be). The character is referred to AS the Legendary Super Saiyan. I don't get why noone seems to grasp the difference. And all anyone's said to prove this as an actaully recognized form is recite the words "Denstsu no Supa Saiya-jin" as appearing in the Daizenshuu. Again, that phrase alone is the description of the character used throughout movie 8, not a label on his transformed state.

This is just material to make us say huh!?!?! Daishokaioshin's right...I only looked at how strong the Legendary power is compared to USSJ, but Broly was never able to think for himself and does not know any known forms beyond Legendary, according to his personality from his movies. He just wanted to kill Kakarot....how dumb is that...everyone wants to do that...how about a real plot like Frieza's saga. Broly is probably the Legendary Super Saiyan because he achieved SSJ before Goku, but again who knows. The writers should have never wrote material outside of the DBZ timeline because we don't know any details or they don't bother to explain them.puk 01:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Uh, what makes you guys think the legend is supossed to make sense? The legend would have been made up by a Saiyan, so you guys are all asuming that that particular Saiyan knows everything or could see into the future or something. A legend is a legend, its not supossed to be real, its supossed to be entertaining like the legend of the Yeti and ect.KojiDude 21:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Minotast: I believe I can argue that Brolly's "legendary form" is really just Fourth Grade Ascended Super Saiyan. Why is that when I state the facts, someone has to be stupid enough to change them? It is quite clear that Vegeta had to transform into an Ascended Super Saiyan to fight Semi-Perfect Cell, correct? Moreover, Trunks can associate well with this idea as well. When Trunks tried to stop Semi-Perfect Cell from absorbing Android 18, he did so as an Ascended Super Saiyan. The difference in Trunks and Vegeta is contributed to their difference in training. Both Vegeta and Trunks manage to achieve Ascended Super Saiyan. However, Vegeta continued to train to increase his base power level with retrospect to his transformations. Trunks, on the other hand, went into further transformations. However, he was not able to master these forms as he ran out of time in the HBTC.

Why do people so quickily assume that Ultra Super Saiyan and Ascended Super Saiyan are "seperate" transformations? It is quite clear that Ultra Super Saiyan is just Ascended Super Saiyan without the stability in dexterity.

See the SSJ 2nd & 3rd Grade discussion. In the original Japanese, Ascended and Ultra are both referred to as "Beyond SSJ", and thus are the same. In the English dub, from the way they are presented, there appears to be a difference between the two, at least in relation to speed alteration. As you pointed out, Ultra SSJ has less maneuverability than Ascended. Thus, why they are considered different by most people. And who is it that you are calling stupid? What facts have you stated that were changed? And there is no "Fourth Grade Ascended Super Saiyajin". The form Brolli used had some of the characteristics of Ultra SSJ, but there was no associated decrease in speed. What would a "Fourth Grade SSJ" be considered, aside from lots of muscles, and lots less speed, since each grade appears to have more and more muscle, and there is a trend of decreased speed and maneuverability as one progresses along these lines?

Daishokaioshin 21:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

FPSSJ?

The article states that only Goku and Gohan have mastered this state, but I always thought that Goten and Chibi Trunks were naturally in this state as well. Their hair appears to be lighter colored in SSJ form than other characters (like how Goku and Gohan's hair blanched somewhat when they mastered the form). In particular Chibi Trunks in SSJ form has lighter hair than Mirai no Trunks did. Also they don't have that feeling of unease, requiring no emotional trigger or power up time to become SSJ's and showing no change in personality. Goten in particular is as cheery and innocent as ever even after the change. Also the boys have immense potential power, as Gotenks is insanely strong, easily a match for Super Buu 1, which make him stronger even than SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks didn't even require training to become an SSJ3, and not as much of a power up time as Goku (who technically had more experience with the form).Onikage725 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually I was also wondering the same thing too. the theory of a saiyan child conceived by a super saiyan father becoming a natural born super saiyan actually makes sense. How else would have vegeta junior and goku junior turned Super Saiyan if this were no possible and accurate theory. -3bulletproof16 19:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

_____

Well, the whole Gotenks Super Saiyan 3 thing, is because they were a fusion, which is immensely more powerful than its two ingredients. But I agree with the theory of a Saiyan child born to a SSJ father, cause it does make sense. What I think really points to it is the fact that they enter SSJ without the emotional trigger... I mean that was a requirement for first time transformation, but you never see these kids get angry enough to set off the trigger, nor would they have a reason too. They grew up in peaceful times, until buu came along. And if they are natural born SSJs, then its only logical that they would be full power. Gohan had to get angry even to change into SSJ.

~Thess~

Vegeta wasn't a Super Saiyajin yet when Trunks was conceived, so the theory of a Super Saiyajin parent resulting in a Super Saiyajin child can be discarded. There is no reason given in the series as to how Trunks and Goten were able to go SSJ so easily, but we don't KNOW that they didn't become angry enough to transform. It could have happened 'off-screen'. There's no way to know for sure aside from asking Akira Toriyama himself.

Daishokaioshin

Vegeta wasn't SSJ yet, but he was stronger than he was in the original timeline due to his training for the Artificial Humans. As such, Chibi Trunks was able to transform at a very young age with little trouble, whereas Mirai no Trunks had greater difficulty and needed the "trigger." It was different in the manga special, I know, but I haven't read that myself. How does that affect the theory?

Also, you have a point that they don't show the initial transformations, but it is pretty much given that it happened while training with Vegeta/Chi Chi. Given, vegeta's a jerk and a harsh task master, so it's possible Trunks got really frustrated. However it still says something that a pre-teen training with Dad would make the change when a teenager fighting genocidal maniacs would have so much difficulty. Also, I doubt that Goten sparring with Chi Chi could have reached the same emotional depths as the other SSJ transformation triggers such as death, loss, or...well Vegeta's a special case :p What we do see is them activating their forms relatively shortly after with absolutely no difficulty. The older Saiya-jin required intense training and experience to not need an emotional trigger or have to "power up" and specifically had to come up with the idea of FPSSJ to not spend the entire time in the state settled with unease and unnatural rage. Goten and Trunks behave no differently when changed. If nothing else, they don't exhibit the "feeling," and mastered the ability to trigger the change in an extremely short amount of time given their age. Not cold hard proof of FPSSJ, I suppose, but certainly worth consideration.Onikage725 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Being 'stronger' isn't the same thing as being a Super Saiyajin. Someone can be so strong that they blow up the Universe if they look funny at it, and that won't make it any more or less likely that their offspring will become a Super Saiyajin. The strength or weakness of a parent has no impact on the children, because that's not how genetics work. If one spends their entire life training and studying to become the strongest, toughest, fastest, smartest person they can possibly be, and then has a kid, then that kid won't be any stronger, tougher, faster, or smarter than is dictated by their DNA. They will be the same as if that parent hadn't done anything at all. Likewise, if your arm got cut off, that wouldn't mean that your kids would be missing an arm. The potential for SSJ is all genetic. Goku could transform because the potential existed in his DNA, AND he happened to fulfill the criteria for becoming a Super Saiyajin. If Krillin hadn't been killed by Freeza, he never would have transformed, because he lacked the need. Vegeta's bloodline also had the potential to become a Super Saiyajin, and he wasn't any more likely to become one than Goku, because without his need to surpass Goku and Mirai Trunks, and become an SSJ, he wouldn't have had sufficient motivation to transform. Prior to finding out there was a second Super Saiyajin all he had was a DESIRE to transform, and a desire is not powerful enough to reach SSJ.

Saiyajins are constantly mutating in response to stresses and changes in their environment. They incorporate new defenses into their bodies when they suffer great damage, gain a greater capacity for ki storage and generation, and actually acquire NEW INSTINCTS that relate to their already instinctual combat abilities. There was no Super Saiyajin for a long time because the Saiyajins were isolated on Planet Plant. They only had what was available there to provide them with means of self-improvement. But when the Arcosians arrived and provided the Saiyajins with the means of going to other planets, they started to be exposed to new environments. These environments contained new viruses, bacteria, and radiation, unique to those worlds or solar systems. Not all of those viruses, bacteria, and radiation were deadly, but they all had an effect on the Saiyajins who were exposed to them. Their DNA was altered, causing changes in the species. Some examples of mutations are the variant hair colors of certain Saiyajin (red for instance, instead of natural black), hair loss (Nappa), mental and emotional instability (the royal Saiyajin family), and gradually increasing average powerlevels for the species itself. The original Super Saiyajin was an individual who just HAPPENED to have the mutations in his DNA resultant from exposure to multiple alien environments with altering properties, and his parents being exposed to other alien environments, that allowed for the transformation to take place. Since some traits are extremely rare, and the Legendary Super Saiyajin isn't known to have had any children to pass his unique genetic code down to, it took quite a number of generations before that certain combination of mutated DNA sequences was again present in any individual.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if a Super Saiyajin parent results in Super Saiyajin offspring, it isn't because they were able to transform. It was because the potential was already there, and could be activated with the proper stimuli, but just HADN'T been in a long time.

Daishokaioshin

I'm not arguing that a Super Saiya-jin parent = Super Saiya-jin offspring. Though in response to what you said on genetics I won't disagree. However we should keep in mind that Toriyama is a comedy/action manga artist, not a scientist. In his manga it seems that the stronger the parent, the more potential the child. Maybe that's just my interpretation, but it doesn't strike me as a coincidence that Gohan was concieved while Goku was well below Raditz's level and Goten concieved when his dad could wage a battle with Perfect Cell, and of the two siblings, Goten was far stronger at a comparable age and made his first SSJ change by accident and withot need of the Room of Spirit and Time and intense training. Likewise Chibi Trnks was alot stronger as a pre-teen than his future counterpart, and the only real difference is the fact that his father was stronger in the main timeline. Likewise, Vegeta far surpassed his father and Goku far surpassed Bardock at the same age. So i'm not disagreeing with you in general, but I don't think Toriyama bound himself to those rules.Onikage725 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not going to totally disagree with the previous entries. I do sort of think that this is all made up to fit the story. All the previous cases are true, but consider this case, Goku Jr. I know, I know. I am going to have a thousand replies saying that this is not canon, but think about it. Three or Four generations later, a child at this age would be ridiculously powerful. Then again I might take that back. They do seem to have sparks around them like a Super Saiyan 2............. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... ww32k @ msn.

Well it is quite confused on this one....but Trunks and Goten achieved SSJ while they were playing training games for a long time. Whenever Bulma brings Trunks over to visit Chi Chi, the two boys would do training games and Goten showed his mom that he was already a SSJ. Eventually they were used to the SSJ powerup and didn't show rages and anger like Goku. Goten had no idea what it was until he seen Gohan transform. As for the fusion, well that's not what this topic is, but it goes back to what the Old Kai said...because the two were rivals make the fusion more complete....so SSJ3 Gotenks was indeed stronger; however it had the same type of power draining effect. Remember, they probably had six months to achieve SSJ3 in the chamber in the Buu saga (time chamber's time is different, so SSJ3 was not achieved so quickly).

Now I wouldn't go as far as saying that they were at full power. I don't even know where 'full power' comes from. They were only getting used to the SSJ powerup without feeling angry. Once controlled, the stamina is increased and they can focus on transforming to the SSJ2 level. They just thought SSJ was a fun thing to do!! puk 02:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

About the chibi-trunks and goten as ssj's thing, and the having a SSJ father, its never stated that vegeta was a SSJ when he fathered trunks.

No, he probably wasn't- but he was stronger than he had been in the alternate future. In the alternate timeline he hadn't been training under 400x gravity to defeat the androids. He didn't even know they were coming. He managed SSJ at some point (probaly under the general purpose of surpassing Goku), but he hadn't been training as intensively.

Gogeta SSJ1 or SSJ2?

After watching the imported version of Dragon Ball Z Movie 12. I'm confused as to what Super Saiyan form Gogeta was in. His hairstlye seems to follow the features of a Super Saiyan 2 but it could be due to looks he aquired from Vegeta. Many fans lables him as Super Saiyan 2 while others believes to be Super Saiyan 1. So fair I cant obtain any solid information on the net.-

___

I haven't actually gotten a chance to see this movie yet, but the easiest way to tell which stage he is in... Well, if he is in SSJ 2 then he will have blue lightning roaming over his aura from time to time, that and when his aura is around him the outlinging lines are very sharp and definite.

~Thess~

I say SSJ2, simply because there is plenty of promotional artwork that looks SSJ1. Let me clarify, I've seen artwork, posters, etc (the stuffs all over the net) with Gogeta having big golden SSJ1-ish hair and no lightning. In the movie itself his hair is shorter, finer colored, and he has a more powerful aura.

SSJ 2nd and 3rd Grade...

I believe, that SSJ 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade are essentially the same thing. I think that 3rd Grade is just a more pronounced 2nd Grade, like if you were powering up. My reasoning for this is, first everyone who achieves 2nd Grade, achieves 3rd Grade. True Vegeta never actually used it, but Trunks insinuates that Vegeta had the ability. Second there are no real changes between the two, I mean their muscle mass increases but that happens even when they just power up. I just always considered the two one and the same... Ultra Super Saiyan(Ascended Super Saiyan).

~Thess~

They are not the same thing. In the original Japanese version, it is true that there was no differentiation between the two. It was simply called 'Beyond Super Saiyajin', regardless of whether there were bulky muscles or not. However, in the english version there seems to be a difference. 'Ascended SSJ' is more of an enhancement of the individual, rather than the actual transformation (Thus 'Super Vegeta' and 'Super Trunks'. It is a Super-version of the user of the transformation, whereas SSJ2 is an enhancement of SSJ1). Ascended SSJ increases strength and energy, but doesn't slow the individual down at all. It is only when Ki energy is channeled into the body and converted into muscle mass that the speed decrease occurs. This speed decrease is connected with 'Ultra Super Saiyajin' rather than Ascended Super Saiyajin.

Daishokaioshin

Also, I forgot to mention, USSJ isn't truly a different form of SSJ, technically... It is, instead, the application of Wakugai Henshin to the SSJ1 form. 'Wakugai' means 'To Go Beyond The Limits' and 'Henshin' means, literally, 'To Go From One Form To Another'. One translation of 'Wakugai Henshin' could be 'Beyond Transform'. A Beyond Transform is basically just pushing one's form beyond its ordinary capabilities by using the principle of matter/energy conversion to increase muscle mass by drawing Ki energy into the body and converting it into matter. Master Roshi did this twice in Dragon Ball (once to blow out the flames on a mountain immersed in fire, a second time to 'destroy' the moon). Freeza did it when he fought SSJ Goku (he called it 100% of his full power). Trunks and Goku both did it as Super Saiyajins. Even Perfect Cell did it. Wakugai Henshin can be used by just about anyone. It increases the strength and power of whatever form someone is in at the time, but is more of an 'add-on' than a form in itself. Freeza managed to use a form of Wakugai Henshin in which rather than decreasing his speed significantly, he instead expended great amounts of energy to maintain his dexterity and movement abilities. The problem is that Freeza dragged the fight out too long, and thus ran out of energy. Remember when Goku said, "Your powerlevel is decreasing with every hit. You're not even a challenge anymore."? That's because by that point, Freeza had exhausted his Ki reserves. He could no longer supply the energy needs of his Beyond Transformation. If Freeza had went straight to 100% earlier in the battle, he might have had enough energy left to outlast Goku, or at least put up more of a fight. Trunks, on the other hand, had plenty of energy, but put too much of it into increasing his muscle mass. His powerlevel appeared to skyrocket because the sensing abilities of the Z Senshi are focused on detecting the current amount of energy present in an individual. Trunks was channeling immense amount of Ki into his body, and then storing it, giving the impression of great power, though his fighting capabilities continued to decrease. If Trunks had been closer to Cell's powerlevel to begin with he could have gotten away with a version of USSJ/Wakugai Henshin similar to Freeza's, in which he only bulked up his muscles slightly, but retained most of his agility and speed. He had more than enough Ki in reserve to sustain this form, so he could have chipped away at Cell piece by piece, until he was defeated. Instead, not being as experienced a fighter, he pumped all his energy into his strength, lowering his effectiveness.

Anyway, yeah, technically USSJ is just SSJ1 + Wakugai Henshin, but most fans of the series don't know and/or recognize that fact, so they consider it to be a different form.

Daishokaioshin

Vegeta Giji Super Saiyan

In episode 83 and 84 of Dragonball Z vegeta is shown as a Gigi Super Saiyan. Vegeta has a yellow glow and a yellow power up. Even in the dialogue before Vegeta started fighting, Frieza called a vegeta a sub-super saiyan or implying that vegeta was not there yet but half-way.

Since Vegeta reached it during the Anime then it is Canon.

...Yellow glow and yellow power up do not equal Giji Super Saiyajin. Freeza did NOT call him a 'sub-super saiyan'. He MAY have said that Vegeta isn't quite there yet, but that's not the same thing as being Giji Super Saiyan, which is an actual physical change, rather than an alteration in aura color. Vegeta was not enraged, and thus was not close to achieving SSJ. He would not have been able to go Giji SSJ, and he DIDN'T. There are lots of times when people have aura changes, and that doesn't mean they're transforming each time. Please stop jumping to conclusions.

Daishokaioshin

Actually Freeza's exact words were "Sub Super Saiyan". Not only that but Vegeta definately appeared "enraged" his pupils' were visible when he started powering up and then dissappeared, he had the yellow aura and yellow electricity shooting around him. Stop with the condensing tone when was the last time you watched the actual episode? I watched it the day before I put that edit in there. He was obviously close he just needed his trigger to finish his transformation. You can say what you want but you can't explain his pupils dissapearing if he wasn't in that state atleast for those few moments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta3.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vegeta4.jpg

notice his pupils are gone and the electricity

I was not using a "condescending tone". This is the internet. There is no "tone". It's all text. And eyes disappearing doesn't equal Super Saiyajin either. Prior to Super Saiyajin making an appearance, the eyes of characters disappeared for a number of other reasons. One example that comes to mind is that it sometimes occurs when a character dies. Another is when a Saiyajin turns into an Oozaru. If you're going to use "eye disappearance" as evidence of being close to Super Saiyajin, then why couldn't the same evidence be used to point towards Vegeta being close to turning into an Oozaru? Sure, the context is different, and he didn't have his tail and thus couldn't turn into an Oozaru at that time, and yadda yadda yadda. The point remains that Giji Super Saiyajin is NON-CANON. It does NOT appear in any of the canon episodes, and thus Vegeta was not transforming into it. He was powering up. He did not have the required motivation to transform into a Super Saiyajin, nor the other required conditions. He was not Giji Super Saiyajin. Period.

Daishokaioshin 03:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

While I agree it's an interesting theory, the fact is it was never noted as a transformation and therefore remains in the realm of fan speculation. Also, Freeza knew nothing of the Super Saiya-jin state aside from the stories (and the one spoken of in legend could only hold the form while in Oozaru), therefore Freeza is hardly an authority on SSJ transformations. So Freeza's calling Vegeta a Sub-Super Saiya-jin would be about as credible (though more acurate) as Vegeta's constant insistence that he was a full SSJ. Onikage725 17:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Tone doesn't only refer to spoken words it can be applied to writing as well, look the word up. Your examples of pupils dissapearing are weak and irrelevant. Vegeta wasn't dying, he wasn't hurt, and he wasn't going Oozaru. Yes that happens sometimes under those circumstances but that obviously has nothing to do with this. By your logic because Krillin can power up like Goku he can go SSJ as well. Vegeta's "eyes dissapeared" along with displaying all the other characteristics of going Giji. You haven't shown why he wasn't you've just shown you refuse to believe your wrong even though all the evidence points to it. At the very least you CAN'T prove he WASN'T Giji. wow caps lock makes me look even more correct.

My examples of pupils disappearing were not intended to prove anything other than that they do not automatically signify a transformation is taking place. In this, my example was successful, and was neither 'weak' nor 'irrelevant'. I also pointed out that I KNOW he wasn't going Oozaru. I wasn't trying to say that he was. Also, nowhere in my statements did I imply that someone capable of powering up could become a Super Saiyajin, nor that those who do not possess Saiyajin blood would be capable of transforming into a Super Saiyajin. Vegeta did not display all the characteristics of going through the Giji Super Saiyajin stage. His hair did not change at all. Also, I believe that what I have shown is that YOU cannot prove that Vegeta WAS a Giji Super Saiyajin. Your belief that I am wrong does not equate in fact, and there any 'evidence' you have presented is circumstantial and could be taken any number of ways without reaching your conclusion. I'm not what the 'caps lock' comment was about. If you think that capitalizing certain words for emphasis is something I do to try to 'make me look even more correct' then you are mistaken. My capitalization of specific words was done to, as I stated before, emphasize them, and for no other reason.

Please consider that you may be incorrect on this, before pre-emptively deciding that I am wrong.

Daishokaioshin 00:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

"My examples of pupils disappearing were not intended to prove anything other than that they do not automatically signify a transformation is taking place."

You really don't listen. Yes the pupils alone don't signify a transformation but when you combine that with the other signals, that alone makes a better case for why he was Giji than anything you've said to show otherwise. Which mostly consisted of stubborn opinions, which you refuse to let go in light of FACTS AND EVIDENCE! Im sure you haven't even seen the episode recently.

Why don't you consider the obvious that you are wrong on this. All the evidence points to Vegeta being Giji, but since you don't think his hair is elevated you say he wasn't. Vegeta's hair is naturally elevated, you don't know what effect Giji would have on hair like his, Goku and Vegeta don't look exactly alike and their has been other times when they're appearance in transformations differ. The picture I posted with his hair visible was at the begining of his power up, at that point his eyes were still visible. Im not going to argue with you and say that his hair was extra "elevated" because Its been some days since I saw the episode now and I don't recall. Its funny that half of what you just said too me is what I said to you, your words don't equate to FACTS. Just because you say so doesn't make it so, especially when Vegeta shows all the symptons of Giji except maybe one.

You are being quite hypocritical. Your belief that Vegeta used a non-canon transformation is so great that you automatically decide anyone who disagrees with you is incorrect, saying that is it "obvious" that I am wrong. It is NOT obvious. Also, YOUR words do not equate to facts either. Your claiming that Vegeta became a Giji Super Saiyajin does not mean it is the truth. It cannot be proven that Vegeta used this non-existant transformation, and your "evidence" is compromised by something you have not considered: Dramatic license. This is a show where a number of absurd things happen on a regular basis. The way in which they are depicted is the product of the imagination of the artists and animators, and does not necessarilly signify anything that is not obvious. Something I pointed out that you have yet to come back to, is the fact that aura colors change often for characters, and that such a change does not signify a transformation.

All of your claims are based on visual elements that can vary at any time, and do not necessarilly have meaning beyond the fact that Vegeta was powering up. IF (and this is a very big if) these visual elements actually pointed towards this Giji SSJ transformation as being what Vegeta was experiencing, that would indicate that Giji SSJ was canon. And Giji Super Saiyajin is as far from canon as you can get. It appears in a movie, which could not possibly have happened in the DBZ timeline, and is entirely a "what if?" scenario, and some say that it was also used in some filler episodes, when Goku was in the Afterlife. Movies and filler are not reliable sources, or acknowledged as being canon by anyone who has an awareness of what constitutes canon and what does not.

Giji Super Saiyajin is not present in the manga, and the manga is final word on what is canon. Giji Super Saiyajin does not appear in any canon episodes of the show, including the ones you have pointed to. Please stop arguing about this. There's no point. The thing that started all of this was the listing of Vegeta as having used Giji Super Saiyajin in the main article. As he no longer is listed, and any attempts to list him as such will be reverted, not just by me, but by a number of other people who realize the truth, this discussion is a moot point.

I'm sure there are DBZ message boards out there where you can talk all you want about Vegeta turning into a Giji Super Saiyajin. Please go find one.

Daishokaioshin 09:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Your so hypocrital its unbelievable, It seems like you maybe have a mental illness. Its laughably funny that inspite of the evidence, the picures I posted you still say he wasn't just because. Im not even going to bother responding to most of what you said, you won't listen to reason.

Giji Super Saiyajin does not appear in any canon episodes of the show, including the ones you have pointed to.

except that it does and I uploaded pictures showing it does, but yes I guess your right, next you can declare that Goku was a ninja turtle and it will be so.

Something I pointed out that you have yet to come back to, is the fact that aura colors change often for characters, and that such a change does not signify a transformation.

actually I did, unlike you I responded with sensible reasoning and proof to anything you said. Since you must have missed it the first time through while you simply dismissed the evidence here it is again.

when you combine that with the other signals, that alone makes a better case for why he was Giji than anything you've said to show otherwise. Which mostly consisted of stubborn opinions, which you refuse to let go in light of FACTS AND EVIDENCE! Im sure you haven't even seen the episode recently.

^ That alone defeats anything you've said, how long has it been since you actually saw the episode? You even said

Freeza did NOT call him a 'sub-super saiyan'.

WRONG (I LOVE caps lock now)

"Vegeta concocts a plan to reach the rank of Super Saiyan by having Krillin hurt him badly, leaving only an inch of his life then having Dende heal him (because Saiyans grow stronger when they recover from near-death experiences). This plan fails to certain extent because Vegeta was able to reach the half-way point between being regular and super saiyan. This is similiar to the stage Goku was in in movie 4"

^ excerpt from Vegeta's Wiki page, im not the only one who actually saw the episode.

Did you ever look up the word "tone"?

Whoaaa kiddies, it's NOT that serious :p But the bottom line is that it was never stated in the manga that Vegeta did anything more than power up. He thought that from his near death experience he had powered up sufficiently. He was clearly mistaken. Aside from the power up, he didn't appear any differently at all during his fight (keep in mind the only direct reference we have for Giji SSJ is Movie 4 in which Goku's eyes and aura were altered for the entire time he held the form). Also keep this in mind- every Saiya-jin reaches a Giji-ish state when they transform or attempt to. Remember when Gohan was training to go SSJ? Or Mirai Trunks? Their aura would increase and their hair would raise. But there is a BIG difference between "almost going SSJ" and "transforming into a Giji Super Saiya-jin." It's theoretically possible that Vegeta started to change into an SSJ but lacked the full requirements to make the change. Failure to make the change doesn't mean you exist in the halfway state. GSSJ is a transformation of itself, shows in the constant SSJ-ish aura, and burns a tremendous amount of ki due to it's imperfections. Onikage725 01:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. In the manga he never shows any sign of being close to GSSJ at all. Even if he did reach it in the anime, it was just filler aperently. [1] You wanna tell me that Trunks reached Giji SSJ too, because he did that for a few seconds?

Finally some decent reasoning, not just "he wasn't cause I say so".

Any bickering or insults on this topic will be deleted. Feel free to continue discussing "Vegeta Giji Super Saiyan", but if you wish to insult people, please take it to private talk pages.

Daishokaioshin 11:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

DBZ Manga

We're arguing over semantics and I don't think it's important. If you want to say "DBZ manga" then go right ahead, but it's not accurate. In Japan, there are two releases of the Dragon Ball manga: one in 42 volumes and one in 36 volumes. I own some of both, but not all. The 42-volume version has been released in the US split into two chunks. Volumes 1 through 16 were released by VIZ in the as "Dragon Ball" and the rest as "Dragon Ball Z". I presume these are the releases that you are talking about, but it was simply a marketing decision to release the books with the name most familiar to the readers. (If you check any of the volumes' cover art, you can still see the original number. For example, Goku wears a shirt with "17" on it on the first DBZ volume. And in the lower-right corner, there's a "DB 17 of 42" label.)

Now, you could *also* be talking about the movie tie-in mangas which were released in Japan and titled DBZ. These were not mangas in the traditional sense because they just consisted of animation captured from the movies with text bubbles. However, they aren't mangas in the strict sense of the word, but hey. We speak English and not Japanese and one word is as good as another.

Just before you decide to argue about research, please try and have your facts straight. As it stands, I'll leave it your way though it is not completely accurate. JRP 03:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right. That IS semantics. I do not know of these 'movie tie-ins' but I own the majority of the Viz translation of the DBZ manga, as well as the untranslated original. You may be correct about there being a difference between the Dragon Ball Z manga (English version) and the continuation of the Dragon Ball manga (Japanese version). If so, then I apologize. But if you would like to distinguish between the DBZ manga (Viz) and the 'non-manga' that Dragon Ball Z is translated from, please state such clarifications on the page, rather than removing reference to the existence of a DBZ manga. Alternately, reference where you get your information from, if it exists somewhere else on wikipedia, with a link.

Daishokaioshin 03:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll find you a reference. I'm sure Daizex has some, but I'm not sure where immediately. As for the untranslated originals, I *just* got back from a vacation to Tokyo-- my first trip there-- and I picked up some of the new 36-volume DB mangas. They are *nice* and I hope VIZ releases them here eventually. Unlike the ones we have, and the original Japanese 42-volume release, they have the pages that were originally in color in Shonen Jump in color again. That's almost worth the trip itself... JRP 04:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

My response to this will continue over at Talk:Dragon Ball Z since this issue is larger than just this one page. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 13:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Trunks or Goku?

I've looked though but it seems no one has mentioned this (sorry if im wrong, I could have overlooked it).

The picture under the heading: Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan seems to look like Trunks in that state - not Goku.
It could be a mistake on my part, but if it isn't, could somebody shed some light onto this please? --Cloak' 14:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Easy to confuse, as the pics are cropped pretty close and they both wore the same armor at that point. The two face pics are in fact Goku. They are from when he powered up to show Gohan the forms (and why he considered them useless). Onikage725 16:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Thanks, they looked quite similar. I got confused.--Cloak' 20:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome :) Onikage725 02:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Half-Human Half-Saiyan speculation.

It says in the article that half-saiyan's bodies are weaker than full saiyans, but as far as I can tell this is purely speculation. The fact that, during the final battle with Cell, Gohan was stronger than his father at a far younger age, shows that it's simply not true. Goten and Trunks were also both halfbreeds and, since they both acheived super saiyan at a young age, were both stronger then their fathers at the same age. Half-saiyans not being able to acheive Super Saiyan 3 is also pure speculation - since Goten, Gohan and Trunks all stopped training hard at the end of DBZ, logically they wouldn't have gotten there. In any case, Goku was the only case of SSJ3 to ever occur, so it's very fuzzy in the area. The real proof that it's wrong, however, is that Gotenks could go SSJ3. Though you could argue that the two 'saiyan halves' double over, making him pure saiyan, this wouldn't make sense from a genetic point of view. In other words, Gotenks was a half-saiyan and he went SSJ3, so there is no proof to say an unfused halfbreed couldn't achieve it if they became powerful enough.

In addition, Goten being weaker than Gohan wasn't a result of his genetics, it was a result of him not training as much. This can also be shown by the fact that Goten reached Super Saiyan at a younger age than Gohan. Seeing as both Goten and Trunks stopped training after DBZ, it's logical to assume that they wouldn't have achieved higher stages of power. I'm making slight edits to remove those comments. - Gregorz

What they mean when they say a partial saiyan's body is weaker, is that the partial saiyan can not ascend past a certain level.

Partial saiyans as in half saiyans, quarter saiyans, and so forth are naturally weaker than full blooded saiyans but they can become stronger than a full blooded saiyan. Half saiyans and partial saiyans can become super saiyan 3 by relasing alot a power or something like that. Partial saiyans can go super saiyan 4 if they have a tail or are exposed to alot of blutz waves from some sort of device like Vegeta.

Uhh... There's no evidence that partial Saiyans are weaker than full-Saiyans. And there is no evidence that says a partial Saiyan can become a Super Saiyan 4.

Daishokaioshin 21:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence that a half sayin can't become a SSJ4 either. But i don't think it really matters since the makers of GT come up with dumber idea's than President Bush. KojiDude 17:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

To the first replier - it seems like you're just stating a bunch of 'facts' with no evidence to back up your claims. Where in the series did it state full saiyans were more powerful than half/partial saiyans? The part saiyans were pretty much on the same level as full saiyans until GT, when the whole SSJ4 thing came about. On that note, your last sentence has pretty much nothing to back it up, since Vegeta isn't an example of a partial saiyan. - Gregorz

Transformations

There seems to be some confusion about transformations and the numbers attached to them. Transfromations increase the base power of an individual. It is the base power that determines how strong someone is, not their transformation alone. For instance, when Vegeta first showed up as a Super Saiyajin he was stronger than Goku in that same form (even if Goku had been completely healthy). Does this mean that Vegeta's power was equal to a Super Saiyajin 2, because he was stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyajin 1? No. It just means his base power was strong enough that when it was increased by SSJ, it went over Goku's maximum. Another example was Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Gohan when they were in Super Saiyajin 1, and Gohan was in Super Saiyajin 2, during the Majin Buu saga. Their base forms were stronger so their transformations made them stronger according to that base.

Legendary Super Saiyajin isn't actually a form. It is a status. But just for the sake of argument, we'll say that it is a unique transformation. If this is the case, then we still have no way of knowing what kind of modification it makes to the user's power, because it is never stated. Did Goku go Super Saiyajin 3 and fight Brolli when he was transformed? No. Would it have mattered if he did? Not at all. Because, see, Goku was already WEAKER than Brolli in his base form, and thus, unless Super Saiyajin 3 put his power equal to Brolli's in his transformed state, then comparing the too wouldn't prove anything. Super Saiyajin 3, and the other transformations, don't provide a fixed power level to the user. It's an enhancement to base power. To say that Brolli's transformation is "equal to a Super Saiyan 3" just because he was stronger than Gohan in his Super Saiyajin 2 form, doesn't make sense.

Daishokaioshin 04:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but be careful with your examples. For example, there's no evidence to support that Goku by the time he went SSJ3 (after years of training in the afterlife) would be a weaker base then Brolli. Heck, even in movie 8 (when Goku was at the equivolent of his pre-Cell Games state), he was able to hurt Brolli before the two transformed. In Brolli's case, alot of the power comes from his change, just like Trunks exceeded Cell's power by pushing his change, only losing to a speed drawback.

What I'm saying is that the base form is the most important factor, but each transformation "stage" increases that base by an increasing modifier. For example, Gohan's problem in the Buu Saga was motivation (or lack thereof). He didn't reach that place within himself until moments before Buu's revival. By then it was too late, of course. Had he accessed that rage earlier, no doubt he would have outperformed the SSJ1's. However, he was still weaker than SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta. Why? Because, as you said, their base forms were stronger due to heavier training. Gohan's "base" was far weaker than Cell, or even his father's, and Gohan as an SSJ couldn't match either. Yet by activating a higher form, he increased that base power by a much better modifier. Had Goku achieved the same transformation, he would have performed even more impressively. Even Cell, after a near death experience and coming back with an aura similar to that of an SSJ2 (replacing his SSJ-ish aura from before) was stronger than Gohan at that point. Just keep that part in mind. Onikage725 14:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan during the Buu Saga, NOT the Cell Saga. During the Cell Saga, Gohan in SSJ1 was stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta, and at LEAST equal to SSJ1 Goku. In SSJ2 he was stronger than everyone. It was as an adult in SSJ2 that he was weaker than SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta.

I believe that I understand all of your points, but if I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, then I apologize.

Daishokaioshin 16:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we basically agree with each other. All I mean by the Buu Saga point is that Gohan wasn't enraged i.e. "at full power" until it was too late. Therefore it's not concrete to peg how he was. I think if he had reached his full power sooner, he would have outpaced the SSJ's and put Dabura in his place. Now, he still would have been weaker than the other two at SSJ2. That goes to the base strength. But Gohan's problem IMO as an SSJ2 is that he wasn't fighting with the rage and ferocity of an SSJ2, leading to his mediocre performance. That power was still there, though. The power attained by the SSJ2 form is far greater than SSJ1.

Meh, I'm tired and not saying it right.

Summary- Bases = most important factor. But, in the Buu Saga I feel it more accurate to say that Gohan due to lack of motivation spent most of his time fighting at the level of an FPSSJ than it would be to say that SSJ Vegeta could rival an SSJ2's power prior to his own "ascension."

And thought of a good example- Gohan in the Cell games. We know he's on par with his father because we are told and we witnessed his training. However, his actual performance in the fight with Cell was mediocre at best. Nothing compared to the epic struggle Goku put up, or even Trunks. Hell, Vegeta put up more of a fight. That has nothing to do with Gohan's strength or weakness. The character since the beginning has had two distinct modes- "I don't really want to do this" and "You won't get away with this." Onikage725 04:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to start wandering the topic, but it seemed to me that throughout the series that Goku like to hide his strength. Of all the transformations that occured, what was peculiar to me was when Goku fought Pikkon. Pikkon 'wiped the floor up' with Cell, yet when he fought Goku, he could barely handle him and ultimately lost. Now does this mean that Goku, eventhough he beat Pikkon in the big tournament, could have easily killed Cell or did he just want to pass the hero flag to Gohan? It didn't take a SSJ2 transformation to even stop Pikkon. Wierd... puk 02:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Eh...well here's a slice of speculation that would make that feasible- maybe having died and powered up (through keeping his body) allowed Goku to become an SSJ2 (similar to Vegeta making the change once he recieved the Majin powerup). And maybe Toei just didn't know how to draw SSJ2 Goku, as Toriyama hadn't done so himself yet. But...the simplest answer is this- that whole slice of the series was anime-only filler. It was cool to watch, but can't really be regarded in context with characters that originated from the manga. Also, the scene in Hell was a plothole, as keeping ones original body is a privelege granted in Heaven. Cell, Freeza, and the others would have been formless spirits waiting to be cleansed. Any scene in the anime that shows otherwise is filler.

I think that there is an explaination for how easily Pikkon beats Cell. I have seen 'Power Levels' all over the internet and in all of them, Dead people are weaker than when they are alive. It might be possible that when evil people die, in return for keeping their body, they loose a significant amount of power. As another example, Tien, Yamcha, and Chautzu defeating the dead Ginyu Force with extreme ease. KojiDude 04:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)KojiDudeKojiDude 04:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't trust ANY power level ratings you see on the internet. Unless it comes directly from the manga or anime, they are not accurate. There is no evidence that anyone who died became weaker. The keeping of the physical bodies was an anime-only thing. Just part of the filler episodes. It isn't considered canon.

Also, just type four tildes (these things: ~) to sign your name and time stamp.

04:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Movies

The movies are not canon. A few of them could possibly be considered canon (such as The History of Trunks, and the Bardock Special), but most of them just don't fit into the canon timeline of events, for various reasons. Here's an example:

In "The World's Strongest" everyone is alive and on Earth, Goku has Kaioken, and there is no sign of Vegeta. This disqualifies it from being considered a canon movie. If Goku knew Kaioken but had not yet gone SSJ that would place the movie before the Namek Saga, because he only appeared with Kaioken during the Saiyan Saga. However, after the fight with Vegeta, Goku was laid up in the hospital until it was time to go to Namek, leaving no room for this movie to have taken place. ADDITIONALLY, since everyone was still alive (most notably Piccolo and Kami), that means that the Saiyan Saga hadn't happened yet, because Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu should all be dead if Goku was on Earth and knew Kaioken (and the Spirit Bomb for that matter). As you can see, there is no possible way that this movie could have happened. There's no room for it in the official continuity.

Here's another example, and the reason why Giji Super Saiyajin is non-canon:

In the movie with Lord Slug, once again, everyone is alive and on Earth. There is still no sign of Vegeta, and Goku knows Kaioken but cannot become a Super Saiyajin yet. This automatically disqualifies it for the same reasons as "The World's Strongest". The fact that Goku attains False SSJ means that he wasn't just holding back and not using full SSJ, as some fans claim, because if he could become a full SSJ then there would be no use for Giji Super Saiyajin, right?

I can explain why most of the other movies are non-canon as well, if people need further evidence, but for now I think this shows quite clearly that to consider Giji Super Saiyajin canon is a mistake.

Daishokaioshin 16:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

True, none of them are canon from a manga standpoint. A few of them could be to the anime however. Movies 1 and 5 suffer from a case of hindsight being 20/20. What I mean by this is that there are small errors due to lack of knowledge of certain details (Kuririn meeting Gohan for instance, though to be fair Goku didn't introduce him as his child in the original script). Also in movie 5 there is Goku's inexperience with the SSJ transformation and Coola making no mention of his father or the fact that his family was slain on Earth and by Trunks. He only knew of Namek because the filmmakers only knew of that for sure (unless I'm mistaken, movie 5 was produced during the period where Toriyama shifted from wanting to end at Freeza to starting Cell). I believe the only two that don't contradict the story are 9 and 13 (though it's been awhile since I've seen 13).

4 = HELL no. Can't happen. Piccolo's alive, which means either Goku would be NOWHERE near the SSJ state, or he would have complete mastery of it and Vegeta would most likely be around (and Gohan wouldn't be such a pushover). Onikage725 04:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ignorance doesn't excuse the mistakes made in the movies. Just because they didn't know, doesn't mean that the movies should be accepted as anything other than "what if" scenarios. They are non-canon. ONLY the History of Trunks and the Bardock Special can be considered canon. All of the others have something in them that contradicts both the anime AND the manga. After returning from Namek, Goku was quite experienced with SSJ, and could transform at will. There was nothing holding him back. As you pointed out, in the first Coola movie Goku is inexperienced with SSJ, and he believes that Freeza was killed by Goku. However, this second bit doesn't have to be explained by ignorance. How would Coola find out that his father and brother were killed on Earth? He must have heard the news eventually that Freeza was killed on Namek (everyone but Cold thought he was dead). He had no idea that his father accompanied Freeza to Earth, or that Trunks had appeared and killed them both.

The inexperience with SSJ is the main factor that goes against the series. Goku wouldn't have waited that long to play the Super Saiyajin card against Coola, and if I recall correctly, Vegeta doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the movie, and he should have been around if Goku was on Earth and capable of going SSJ.

As for the final movie (movie 13?), it contradicts the series by attempting to explain how Future Trunks got his sword, by having Tapion give it to him. However, in the time line of the movie, set after the Buu Saga, Trunks would have had no REASON to go into the past, and since in Mirai no Trunks's timeline, he would have needed the sword LONG before Majin Buu appeared, the movie is once again considered non-canonical. If you ignore the sword thing, AND ignore GT (which isn't hard), then I guess the Tapion movie could be considered canon, since it occurs after the events of DBZ, and thus there is no conflict with the established timeline. This is, of course, excepting Uub's presence or non-presence. After DBZ Goku was busy training Uub. If Uub doesn't even make an appearance, then once again, the movie reverts to non-canon.

Daishokaioshin 19:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Not so in movie 13. takes place between Buu's death and the final Tenkaichi Budokai. Uub would be a newborn at oldest.

And all I meant was that most of them were meant as what-if's, but a handful weren't. None are canon to the manga, obviously. Even the two specials- Bardock's was one panel, and Trunks' had him already as an SSJ (as opposed to transforming at Gohan's death).

However, for referring to what works with the anime, movie 1's sequal is an entire in-anime saga. So the one small point that Kuririn didn't mention meeting Gohan puts it in the realm of "small discrepancy" rather than "non-canonical." Again, to the anime only. Neither has relevence to the manga, of course. Movie 5 was meant to work out, but actual canonical events made filled it with holes. Even if the only major one is Goku's change, it isn't ignorance on the film's part because Goku's return hadn't been written yet. Toriyama didn't limit himself to what film events, so movie 5 lost it's credibility. Movie 9 has no plotholes at all. It happens in a dead period and al characters are where they should be. Trunks even explains that he came back to check up on everyone since he had things settled in his own timeline.

As for the sword subplot, that doesn't negate anything because we were never told how or where Mirai Trunks got his sword in the first place. Events happened very differently in his era. For example the Buu Saga never happened due to Earth's lack of powerful fighters. We have no way of knowing when he got his sword in the Mirai timeline or how, but if it was Hildegarne, it could well have happened when he was a child like in movie 13. Tapion was stronger than he let on (he easily weathered a blast that rendered Vegeta unconscious), and he also managed to capture Hildegarne. The monster was released becaue of Chibi Trunks' unwillingness to kill Tapion at that time, but given the grittier reality of the Mirai timeline, Gohan and Trunks may have been more willing to do what was necessary. All that is of course speculation, but considering that we were given nothing but speculation about Trunks' sword to begin with (did he get it during the interim from when he went SSJ and when he went back in time, or did he have it all along and merely kept it locked away until he'd reached the appropriate age and skill level to wield it?), we can't call the presence of the sword in movie 13 a plot discrepancy. Onikage725 22:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Since more explanation is apparently needed, for the anonymous user:

The movie with Tullece (The Tree of Might) has the same problems with it as The World's Strongest. Goku is alive and capable of Kaioken, but not SSJ. Piccolo, Tien, Chiaotzu, and Yamcha are all alive as well. If Goku is able to use Kaioken but not SSJ then that means the movie takes place either during the Saiyan Saga, or during the Namek Saga. Since there is no sign of Vegeta or Nappa, it isn't during the Saiyan Saga. Since no one is on Namek, it isn't the Namek Saga. The movie appears to be taking place in some alternate time frame, which cannot be accurately determined in relation to the actual series.

We don't KNOW when Tullece died if we're using the Sagas of the show as reference, because the events that take place in the anime, which define the different time periods, don't appear to have taken place. The movie, "The Tree of Might" is a "what if" scenario. It isn't canon. Same goes for the Broli movies. We probably SHOULD just remove reference to Paragus and Tullece BOTH in the part of the article that mentions them currently, since neither one is canon, and thus don't matter.

However, Broli is mentioned, and both Giji and "Legendary" Super Saiyajin are mentioned as well, for the sake of completeness, so removing everything that is non-canon from the article probably wouldn't work. It's best to just accept that we can't compare the movie with Tullece to the series and expect to get a date on when he died, because we have no way of knowing based on the information provided us.

Daishokaioshin 22:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, in simple terms, Goku died at the outset of the series. Half the cast of the Tree of Might movie died prior to Goku's return. By the time they were all reunited, it was just before the Android portion of the series and Goku had mastery of his SSJ transformation. Any movie with Goku fighting alongside anyone beside Kuririn and Gohan where he can use Kaioken but not become an SSJ (namely the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th movies) cannot have happened in the series. Onikage725 22:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Even MORE explanation is apparently needed:

In response to the comment in the anonymous user's edit, if they hadn't met Vegeta yet then Goku wouldn't have been on Earth with Kaioken, as the reason he came back was to fight Vegeta and Nappa. Everyone's powerlevel is far higher than during the Saiyan Saga, meaning it CAME AFTER. Goku was capable of using a very high multiplier of Kaioken, something he couldn't have done without the intense training he did on his way to Namek. But for the reasons already pointed out above, it doesn't seem that anyone has gone to Namek. The movie DOESN'T FIT IN WITH THE "SAGAS" OF DBZ. NONE of them do. I would appreciate it if people would stop trying to say that someone died before or after or during a Saga when they are a movie character and there is no evidence that a certain Saga even happened. The movies are OUTSIDE canon continuity, and have their OWN timeline. Just so that it is absolutely clear, I will state it once again:

THE TREE OF MIGHT DOES NOT OCCUR WITHIN ANY TIMEFRAME WE CAN DETERMINE.

As for Gohan's tail? Didn't it grow back because of the Moon Burst? That could have happened at ANY point. Gohan lost his tail while training with Piccolo (twice) and it still grew back during the Saiyan Saga. Having a tail for any reason isn't evidence of anything beyond the fact that those with Saiyan heritage can regrow their tails when they are young.

Daishokaioshin 20:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Movie 13 had the biggest plot hole ever. Only Future Trunks has the sword. Current Trunks never had a sword. Goku and Vegeta died when Trunks was a baby. Goten is never born since Goku died before Goten was conceived. Trunks couldn't go super saiyan yet. There was no super saiyan 3 because there wasn't even a super saiyan 2. Trunks couldn't fight yet because Gohan didn't train him until he was 13. Trunks didn't have a sword when he was 13 in the movie The History of Trunks. By the time Trunks has a sword he was 17.

Paragus is alive during the Frieza saga because Paragus died afer Gohan went Super Saiyan. Gohan went Super saiyan, three years after Frieza was killed by Trunks. Tullece, also known as Turles, died when gohan was little and had tail. Gohan's tail is removed during the movie. Tullece died before Goku went super saiyan so that should be proof that Tullence died before the Frieza saga. They haven't met Vegeta yet when Tullence died. Movies like these do have plot holes in it. Tein, Chaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo are dead when Goku arrives back on Earth. But since it happened before Nappa and Vegeta arrived on Earth Goku should be dead and training with King Kia.

Except that there is no Freeza Saga in that movie. THERE ARE NO SAGAS IN THAT MOVIE. NONE. Tullece doesn't die before anything because we don't KNOW when anything occurred in relation to the events of the series. There is no point of reference. Also, Gohan never went Super Saiyajin 3. And no, Tullece dying before Goku went SSJ isn't anywhere near being proof that the movie occurred before the Freeza Saga. Look at it this way: What if no one had been killed by Nappa and Vegeta? What if they had all survived somehow? What if Vegeta and Nappa were both killed? Then there would have been no need to go to Namek, and Goku would have continued his training on Earth, and would eventually reach a high powerlevel with the ability to use a high multiplier of Kaioken, as seen in the movie. This could be a couple years after the Saiyan Saga happened, and then Tullece shows up. That would put it at after when the Freeza Saga would have been taking place in the actual series.

However: That is all speculation, because there is no EVIDENCE that any of that actually took place. All we can do is guess, and guesses aren't really needed here on wikipedia. The Tree of Might doesn't occur during a certain Saga because there is no point of reference for determining what Saga might have been going on if the movie was actually part of official continuity.

Daishokaioshin 21:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow ios this seriously being argued? Tullece and Paragus DONT EXIST IN SERIES CONTINUITY. And Movie 13 doesnt have a plot hole just because the sword is in it because we dont at all know when/where Future Trunks got his sword. How do we know he didnt have it when he was a kid and not use it? In Movie 13 it was too big for him to accurately wield, so it makes sense that he didnt train with it until he was a teenager. But they dont tell us either way and movie 13 just tries to offer an explanation. It can't contradict how "Future Trunks gets his sword" because we NEVER SEE HOW HE GETS HIS SWORD AT ALL EVER.

I don't think that whether Tullece or Paragus exist in canon continuity is being argued, no. The people who are actually involved in this discussion are aware that the movies are not canon, and this is mirrored by the "(Non-Canon)" placed next to the movie-only transformations in the main article. However, the thing with the sword is this:

Tapion is supposed to have arrived on Earth sometime towards or after the end of DBZ. The events of the Android Saga, etc. occur in the timeline of Mirai no Trunks LONG before the end of Dragon Ball Z would have occurred in that timeline. I agree: We don't know how or where Future Trunks got his sword. But the fact remains that it couldn't have been Tapion who gave it to him, because he wouldn't have gotten the sword from Tapion until after the Buu Saga, which is a FAR in the future.

So: In the movies, an alternate Chibi Trunks (alternate in that all the movies are alternate versions of the main series) receives a sword from Tapion. This means nothing. Who cares if Trunks non-canonically got a sword from an alien? Chibi Trunks never uses it in the show, and it is unlikely that this is the source of Mirai no Trunks's sword, so it is a non-issue. It's just another movie.

All of that is what had been discussed and determined already. If you wish to comment on something NEW that HASN'T already been covered, please do. More discussion on things related to the movies, or anything else Dragon Ball/Z-related, would be welcome and appreciated.

Daishokaioshin 20:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm, well I'm gonna kind of agree with the last anon post (well technically they were agreeing with me). You can't really reference the Buu Saga with the Mirai Timeline, because Mirai Trunks came to the main timeline from a point after when those events would have happened (chronologically speaking). When we meet Mirai Trunks in the Trunks special, he's already older than Chibi Trunks (and therefore past any point that occured in the main timeline's Buu Saga or in Movie 13). If you think about it, why would Babidi even bother landing on Earth? Dabura was far stronger than Gohan in that timeline, as well as the androids (who actuallywouldn't have even been sensed). Considering that Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta (all as SSJ2's) were directly responsible for powering up the Buu Sphere, the lack of two and weakness (by comparison) of the other in the Mirai Timeline makes the Buu Saga implausible in that reality.

Keep in mind that Trunks went back 20 years, and then 17 years into the past in order to help the Z Senshi during the Cell Saga. The Buu Saga begins 7 years after the Cell Games. So the Trunks' alternate future is well beyond when the Buu Saga would have taken place (and is actually about equivolent in chronology to the last episode of the series and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai).

Oh, and noone's given a legit complaint about movie 9 yet :p

And talk about others...I don't think there's much to say. Movies 6 and 7 suffer mainly from Vegeta's presence as an SSJ. Movie 8, there was no time for between Gohan going SSJ and the Cell Games (after which Goku dies). 10 and 11 fail due to 8's inability to have happened. If not for that, 10 could have easily happened, but 11 is a little trickier. 12...they should have been dealing with Buu. It COULD have been during the lull where Fat Buu was hanging out with Mr. Satan...but Gohan shouldn't have been on Earth.

Onikage725 13:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I know movies by name rather than number, personally. Please identify which one "Movie 9" is, if you really want people to list complaints against it.

Daishokaioshin 21:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The Galaxy is in Danger!! The Super Incredible Guy/Bojack Unbound. Onikage725 14:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Movie nine supossedley takes place after the cell saga, and i belive this. In my opinion, it fits perfectly with the series. Except for a few details: How does bojak know so much about Goku&Gohan? Why wasn't Goku warned about bojak before? And, (random question) What race would bojak be concidered as? Changeling? KojiDude 04:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)KojiDudeKojiDude 04:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Bojack didn't really know much about the heroes (at least not in the original version. Goku wasn't warned because Bojack wasn't a threat until Cell killed Kaio-sama. Race- he's his own race (i.e. not a pre-established one), but he's most similar to Garlic Jr's. They have a similar transformation style. Onikage725 16:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Powerlevels

It seems to me that in order to become a SUPER SAIYAN a saiyan warrior must have a minmum power level of 300,000. I'm not exactly sure but it's a rough estimate on my part beacause Gohan himself almost became a Super Saiyan when he fought Freeza in his 4th form.

207.69.137.35

We don't know how strong Goku was when he became a Super Saiyajin for the first time, so there is no basis for saying that there is any minimum power requirement. Also, it is highly unlikely that Gohan was anywhere near 300,000 as his powerlevel, though, once again, there is no stated powerlevel beyond Freeza in his 2nd Form, so we should not and cannot accurately determine what powerlevel any particular character had beyond what is SPECIFICALLY STATED.

In addition, I saw no signs of Gohan being about to turn into a Super Saiyajin against Freeza. He got mad, but he has gotten mad plenty of times before without transforming.

Also, consider Goten and Trunks. We don't know how strong they were when they first became Super Saiyajins, but it is improbable that they were already stronger than Goku when he arrived on Planet Namek. Chi-Chi could match Goten until he went SSJ, and she was fairly weak as far as DBZ fighters go (though still much stronger than a normal human). From this we can deduce that Goten was close to his mother's strength when he first transformed.

Trying to guess at powerlevels or say that there is any specific powerlevel requirement to transform is a waste of everyone's time. There is NOTHING in canon that suggests such things, so we should simply leave the issue alone.

Daishokaioshin 01:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, one could make an educated guess for Goku though. I mean, we know he emerged at 300,000 (at least I think this was said, but I'm actually drawing a blank as to where...all the same, it's a safe area given his strength against Ginyu and his power up from healing). We know he was using Kaioken x 10 for most of the fight, peaking with a x20. We also know from the Daizenshuu that his PL after transformation was 15 mil. So to some extent, a certain number of reasonable theories could be extrapolated.

Now, any character past there...well there's no basis whatsoever :p Onikage725 04:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It is never stated that Goku had a powerlevel of 300,000 at ANY POINT. The last powerlevel reading on him was "more than 180,000". As for the daizenshuu, while they were contributed to by Akira Toriyama, they are also for the most part contradictory to the actual series. They cannot be submitted as evidence on this matter, due their non-canonical nature.

Maybe Goku had a powerlevel of 300,000. Maybe he didn't. WE DON'T KNOW. Thus we shouldn't be hypothesizing and then stating those hypotheses as fact such as "there is a minimum powerlevel requirement of 300,000 to become a Super Saiyan". There is no evidence that a minimum powerlevel of ANYTHING is required to become a Super Saiyajin. Someone can believe or disbelieve Goku's powerlevel at any point, and I don't really care, just as long as no one attempts to state their beliefs as fact in the wikipedia article, when they cannot backup their beliefs with CANONICAL proof.

Daishokaioshin 19:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ultra Super Saiyan

I have a question about Ultra Super Saiyans. Wouldn't Super Saiyan 2nd Grade be Ultra Super Saiyan while Super Saiyan 3rd Grade is Ultra Super Saiyan 2.

Actually that's your opinion and it's not necessarily wrong. I've never heard a definate source stating about the USSJ stuff. but if you said USSJ2 then people might think you would be mixing up with SSJ2. metalhead 17:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No. Ultra Super Saiyajin is the name for the form with all the bulky muscles. Ascended is just an enhanced form of SSJ1. There's a difference between the two.

Daishokaioshin 21:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ascended Super Saiyan has bulky muscles. So wouldn't that be an Ultra Super Saiyan?

No, Ascended Super Saiyajin doesn't have bulky muscles. Muscles are SLIGHTLY increased, but there is no speed decrease, and strength isn't boosted as high as with Ultra Super Saiyajin. Ascended Super Saiyajin (Super Saiyajin 2nd Grade) and Ultra Super Saiyajin (Super Saiyajin 3rd Grade) are different. See above in the subject "SSJ 2nd and 3rd grade..." where this is explained in-depth.

Daishokaioshin 23:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm, it depends on version/familiarity pretty much. The Japanese version didn't list them, unless I'm mistaken. The Daizenshuu and other source material gave us the 2nd and 3rd grade terms. Then in fanon we got the phrases USSJ (ranking up there with Fat/Kid/Ultimate Buu for example). The U was generally said to be Ultra or Ultimate, and was broken down as USSJ1 and USSJ2. Not official, but that's how many fans referred to the forms prior to the US version reaching the "Imperfect Cell Saga". Then FUNi got to that part of the Cell Saga and borrowed a little from the fans, calling the 3rd grade form USSJ. The 2nd Grade they named Ascended, due to it's gains but lack of weaknesses. The muscles increase, as does speed and ki generation, but speed doesn't take the hit (and may even increase in a manner similar to Freeza's). The theory behind the two are the same (notice how the normally skinny Vegeta looks like a pro bodybuilder when in that state), but 3rd grade is basically "too much of a good thing."

Onikage725 14:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

In the Japanese version of Dragon Ball Z, they refer to both Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyajin as just "Beyond Super Saiyajin". They don't differentiate between the two. It is assumed that BSSJ can be used up to a certain level without hampering speed or agility due to practice with that form, and because the muscles aren't big enough to cause a disconuity between mental reaction time and physical reaction time. Beyond a certain point, however, the mind may be willing, but the body won't be able.

However, in the English (Funimation) dub each "stage" of Beyond SSJ is called something different and it isn't illogical to do so, since each level provides different benefits. Ascended SSJ provides an all-around enhancement to everything physical. Ultra SSJ provides a great enhancement to Ki and physical strength. We all know it suffers in the speed department, but it still provides those benefits. An Ultra Super Saiyajin is likely going to be faster than any norma human even with those bulky muscles, so if there was ever some need to face a strong opponent who wasn't very fast, USSJ might be a help rather than a hinderance.

Daishokaioshin 20:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I meant. And basically FUNimation took the USSJ term from fanon, but created ASSJ. Well not so much created as used that to describe going beyond (BSSJ as you put it). Ascending, going beyond...same difference :p The only real difference as far as I can tell is that they seemed to push ASSJ as a form in and of itself. Onikage725 22:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is probably the same thing. Ascended is probably the same thing as Ultra. It makes sense too. Ultra is just pushed more, making you heavier and stronger. It's not really a whole new stage altogether. metalhead 17:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Tien vs. Tenshinhan

Why are we using the incorrect dub name? Thanos6 21:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Just because it's the dub name doesn't make it incorrect. Everything else in this article is named according to the dub (ie. Super Saiyan rather than Super Saiyajin, Broly instead of Brolli/Burori, etc.). We can put BOTH names for a character or thing in here if you really want, but please try to keep in tune with the rest of the article, and its name use.

Daishokaioshin 23:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Saiyan/Saiyajin is to account for a specific thingy of Japansese (-jin). Broli/Brolli/Burori are simply alternative waya of saying the same katakana. Same for Krillin/Kuririn.

Tien/Tenshinhan? They lopped off two syllables and added a vowel. That's not a pronunciation difference, that's a pronunciation massacre. Also, the translated manga uses Tenshinhan. Thanos6 02:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

His full name is Tienshinhan. Tien is a shortened version of his name. Whether you like it or not, that's how it is. And the suffix "jin" means "people of". Saiyajin means "People of Saiya" (which makes sense considering Saiya is a word-scramble of Yasai (vegetable)). Saiyan means essentially the same thing. It's a different way of saying it, but it's still the American/English way of saying it, rather than the Japanese version. Broly and Brolli/Burori aren't just different ways of saying the name. One is Japanese, one is English. We're using the English version in this article.

Once again, just to make it clear, Tien is like a nick-name, rather than his full name. Tienshinhan is his full name (used at least once in the most recent English dub of Dragon Ball). This isn't clear in Dragon Ball Z, because they had no reason to use his full name. Everyone (in the main cast) knew who Tien was, so they called him Tien, rather than Tienshinhan. It has nothing to do with pronunciation.

Hope I've clarified things.

Daishokaioshin 03:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I've watched the anime in its original Japanese, read the manga, I have the Daizenshuu, and it is not "Tienshinhan." It is Tenshinhan. "Tienshinhan" or "Tien Shinhan" is a complete creation of the dub, just like "Tien" is. Thanos6 03:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I never claimed that it wasn't a "creation of the dub". Tienshinhan is his full name in the English dub. Tien is a shortening of that, in the english dub. Tenshinhan is his name in the Japanese version. I have the manga as well (translated and original). I have seen the Japanese original of the series also. The Daizenshuu are worthless pieces of scrap paper that don't mean anything, so please don't act like having them makes you an authority on anything.

I pointed out that "Tienshinhan is his full name (used at least once in the most recent English dub of Dragonball)." I wasn't discussing what his name is in the Japanese original, because that's NOT THE ISSUE HERE. You wanted to know why we're using Tien instead of Tenshinhan. I told you why. We're using the English dub as reference for this particular article. In the English dub the character's name is Tien (informal) and Tienshinhan (formal). That's how it is. I don't particularly care whether you agree with this fact or not.

You seem to feel that the dub is somehow less valid because it was translated into another language. However, there are names such as "King Kai" and "Hercule" in the dub as well. Are they invalid because they were changed? Sure, I agree, "Hercule" is a dumb name made by the censors who couldn't handle "Mister Satan" being in their precious dub and possibly emotionally scarring the fragile American youth. But whether it's dumb or not, it IS the name they chose, and when speaking about the English dub, that is the name that is used. Same goes for Tien.

Daishokaioshin 05:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's Tenshinhan, correct. The dub spells it Tien Shinhan (as two names) and is incorrect in that matter. Also, I thought there was a general consensus to use the original, universal names as opposed to the FUNi alterations for the sake of accuracy? It baffles me how everyone knows enough not to trust FUNi for canon information yet cling to their name changes out of nostalgia. This is English wikipedia, not US wikipedia, and what one dub company in one country did isn't representitive of how the whole world knows these characters.

It isn't incorrect. That's how it's spelled/used in the English dub. Because it's in a different language than the original doesn't make it any more or less valid or canon than anything else. Please don't try to drag countries into this. Saying "zomg it si teh Amrican vershun so it si stupid!!!1!!11!eleven" is just an attempt at misdirection and changing the subject. We're using Tien in this article. Live with it or don't, but please stop arguing about what name is "correct". Tien is correct according to the English dub which the majority of individuals who contribute to this and other DBZ articles are familiar with.

Daishokaioshin 20:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright then, let's remove the family name "Son" from any mention of Goku, Gohan, or Goten. They never use it in the dub, after all... Thanos6 03:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to do so, feel free.

Daishokaioshin 04:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not about "it's American so its stupid," it's about factual information. Referencing both names would be the best. Something like Tenshinhan (Tien in the US Dub). As for correctness, if we're going to swear by the US dub and forego accuracy for familiarity, we might as well list that Bardock was a brilliant scientist, Dr. Gero was in fact Commander Red, Raditz is faster than the speed of light, and Vegeta became an SSJ not out of anger at himself but rather because he "just didn't care." Onikage725 12:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe I already suggested including both names towards the beginning of this conversation. I never said "swear by the US dub and forego accuracy for familiarity". I said, that THIS article is using the NAMES from the English dub. And when was it ever stated that Dr. Gero was Commander Red? It is stated many times that he was the scientist that built the Red Ribbon Army's robots and such. I don't recall it ever being said he was anyone other than who he is. Contradictory information can be ignored, or labeled non-canon. However, names are not contradictory, because there is nothing to contradict. Tien is the name used in the English dub. Tenshinhan is the name used in the Japanese original. Each one should be considered seperate from the other just for the preservation of sanity. If you try to convince every person out there that the English version is "wrong" and that they should only pay attention to the Japanese version, then you will be wasting a lot of time. And Vegeta DIDN'T become an SSJ out of "anger at himself". SSJ is caused when there is a great emotional release (or at least that's one of the factors anyway. It is NOT the only one). Vegeta was constantly angry. He was angry at everything. It was his normal mental and emotional state to be pissed off. It was when he no longer was agonizing over Goku and Trunks being SSJ when he couldn't seem to reach it, and he just let all his anger loose (while facing the possibility of death, thus supplying him with the "need" that is another factor), that he finally attained Super Saiyajin status.

Additionally: Why does everyone keep saying "US dub"? Is there some other dubbed version of Dragon Ball Z in English that I am unaware of? If so, does it use different names for characters?

Daishokaioshin 21:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I know there's at least a Canadian dub, and possibly a British one too. Thanos6 02:08, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yea, there are two US dubs for the Pilaf Saga and Saiyan-Namek arcs of course. The Ocean Group who first did them ended up doing most of the rest of the series in Canada (with a gap in Freeza Saga). I've heard about the UK dub as well, but info is scarce enough as it is about the Canadian dub, let alone overseas. FUNi has the dvd distribution rights and releases in dual language, so the other dubs are pretty much limited to local television in their areas.

As for my Dr. Gero and vegeta comments, those stem from our dub's nasty habit of dubbing silent flashbacks. They pretty much pulled dialogue out of thin air, and often made mistakes. For example, they didn't know they were going to be dubbing Dragonball, so didn't do any reasearch, and in the Dr. Gero flashback proclaimed him as the leader of the Red Ribbon Army. As for Vegeta, he originally describes outside of the flashback that he transformed due to his anger out of his own weakness, basically. His inability to surpass Goku. It basically shows his selfish nature. Where Goku is good-natured and required the death of someone he sought to protect to trigger him, Vegeta had no such ties at that time. The only one he cared for was himself, and therefore the only one he could get angry about was himself. It was actually somewhat of a mirror of Gohan's own transformation (or the other way around, since Vegeta's was first.) Both were frustrated with their own weakness, but one wanted to protect while the other cared only about strength for it's own sake. In the dub he said "he didn't care about Kakarot" or if he even lived or died. Maybe it's up to interpretation, but I think there's a difference between being angry that he couldn't surpass Goku and not caring about Goku or anything else whatsoever.

A small handful of other notable errors: Tao Pai Pai being general for the Red Ribbon Army (General Tao), when he was just a hired assassin. In Dragonball they ammended that to "Mercenary Tao."

Also, Bulma has a line in the Cell Saga about having known Goku since he was 5 (though she met him at age 12). Also, Gohan introduces himself in the Saban dub as being 5, because of fear over censors being mad about Raditz hitting a 4 year old (even though they censored the hit anyway). I missed the early eps of the FUNi re-dub, so I'm not sure if they fixed that.

Oh, Dai, check your talk page. Onikage725 13:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Just an added note: I would think if nothing else we would use terms from the translated manga. It stays far more faithful to Toriyama's script, names, and puns. And since the manga itself is the highest authority, I would think a fairly accurate english translation of the manga would be our US reference over a mostly rewritten dub of the secondary source. Onikage725 16:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In Dragonball Z Uncut Gohan says he is four and a half. Also in the Uncut version Vegeta never mentions Goku's father. The Uncut I'm talking about is in english not japanese.

Cool. I was a little worried. They still use a rewritten script, and some of it they took directly from the Saban dub. Like Piccolo meeting Raditz, in the Japanese version and both versions of the manga Piccolo starts the fight, getting pissy about Raditz's dismissive attitude towards the readout he gets on the scouter. In both US dubs Piccolo seems more scared than mad, claiming he has no interest in a fight. I think the only difference between the Saban version of that scene and the FUNi redub was that instead of the infamous "birdy" atttack, Raditz uses one of the Budokai names (Double Sunday or Saturday Crush, I think). Onikage725 21:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What does SSJ5 look like?

Me and my freinds made our own little manga thing out of bordem and our ssj5 is exactly like SSJ4 except with the hair of a ssj3 (but the hair is black) and i have a question about ssj4, Why does the shirt disapear? O.o

Probably the same reason that those using SSJ4 get new pants. Because the makes of GT were nitwits. Lots of things don't make sense in GT. Trying to make sense of it is making the assumption that there is sense to be made.

Daishokaioshin 02:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

A better question could be "why do they sprout magic pants?" But that's been asked and similarly ridiculed. GT = no. Onikage725 23:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Daishokaioshin, you said "Lots of things don't make sense in GT."

I agree with you on the GT dubs. Me and my friends have noticed that in the English dub of GT, a lot of understandable things are switched out with meaningless or confusing situations. I don't know why and I don't care. But I know that when my friends were telling me about how Trunks said something in the anime and did something which made absolutely no sense, then told me about how what Trunks said made a lot of sense in the Japanese version, I thought that most of the English dub was just a joke maybe.

But to somehow answer the first guy's question....the SSJ5. Fans draw it all the time and you can do a web search. I remembered they had a silvery bluish hair. Not exactly sure. And for SSJ4...in my opinion the shirt disappears because the studios thought it would be cool like that. The pants I don't think are overlooked...obviously the studios knew they were doing that. metalhead 18:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

LSSJ&SSJ3

I have a question. Which is stronger, SSJ3, or LSSJ? In the first broly movie, goku can't hurt brolly as a SSJ, and he need sto take power from 4 different people to beat him. He doesn't ascend to any higher forms, but there has to be a dramatic power increase from not being able to hurt somone to being able to knock them into a 7 year coma with one punch. I'm just wondering if a SSJ3 could beat a LSSJ.

KojiDude 17:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It would depend upon how strong the Saiyan using SSJ3 was without it. If you're weak in your base form, just going to a higher transformation isn't going to help, since the transformation works off of your base power level. I believe this has been discussed elsewhere on this page. Look under the "Transformations" section of the talk page.

Daishokaioshin 03:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah we did the two to death already :p Quick answer though- SSJ3. LSSJ is an insanely strong and not-useless version of USSJ. In short, it's a build off of SSJ1. The key ingredient to SSJ3 is said to be immense training (and already being an SSJ/SSJ2). As was just said, the bases are the most important factor, but if one of the characters was capable of going SSJ3 it's highly unlikely his base is anything short of amazing in it's own right. Theoretically, any decently strong SSJ1-capable Saiya-jin can go SSJ2 with a similar mix of emotions as what triggered his initial change. Going SSJ3 is a different matter all together. Onikage725 03:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Super Sayin's Tail's

In the article it says that Elder Kai states that if a sayin went SSJ with his tail the tail would turn yellow as well. And that brolly went SSJ while he had a tail in movie 11. I don't remember Elder Kai saying anything like that and i don't remember Brolly ever having a tail. Please let me know if i'm wrong. KojiDude 18:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Rou Dai Kaioshin DIDN'T say that. I haven't seen movie eleven, but it doesn't matter, since Brolli isn't canon. The golden tail thing comes from GT, where Goku transforms into a SSJ3 after his tail grows back, and the tail is gold colored. It makes sense when you think about it, that the fur on the tail would be gold, but it is never stated by any character that it would be such, before it actually happened.

Daishokaioshin 21:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think i've ever seen that episode where SSJ3 Kid Goku's tail is gold. I'd like to see the episode or a picture/clip of the tail if possible. KojiDude 21:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If I had the episodes available to me, and knew how to get clips/pictures from them, I would provide one, but I do not. It's in the episode where Goku is taken to New Vegeta after his tail finishes being pulled out on the Kaioshin Kai. Goku turns SSJ3 to fight Bebi, but is beaten up anyway. In that same episode, at the end, he starts to turn into a Golden Oozaru when he sees the Earth overhead. I don't know the name of the episode or I would give it here. It's two episodes before Goku turns SSJ4, I believe, if that helps any.

Daishokaioshin 21:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

http://sandrockk.free.fr/files/dbz/gt/baby2/ssj3.gif Onikage725 03:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

In movie 11 when bio broly before he mutated went super saiyan his tail is still brown. In Dragonball GT when kid Goku goes Super Saiyan his tail is still brown. When kid Goku went Super Saiyan 3 with a tail ,which he only did once, his tail is yellow.

I'm assuming that if a saiyan with a tail goes super saiyan his tail stays brown. I assume that if a sayain goes Super Saiyan 2 his tail would turn yellow, never been shown in GT. I also assume that if a saiyan with tail goes super saiyan 3 his tail would turn yellow. If you disagree with this statement please explain why. Other than that it does make sense.

(The previous comment was by 204.184.17.105)

I'd have to re-watch movie 11 later, but I should point at that the movies and GT aren't canon, and would just as easily contradict each other as they would the main storyline. Onikage725 21:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Why would they be considered noncanon?

GT is non-canon because Toriyama didn't create it. He does like it, but the fact remains that it creates numerous plot discrepencies and errors. They had good ideas, but simply not enough time to implement them cleanly. As for the movies, most of them likewise don't fit. In this case, Brolli. Movie 8 can't fit because Gohan is an SSJ (therefore it's post-Room of Spirit and Time Training) yet Goku is alive and Gohan isn't SSJ2. There simply wasn't time, given that the movie takes at least 2-3 days (includiing trip home), and most of them time waiting for the Cell Games is accounted for (in the anime at least). Onikage725 22:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Just because its not in the magna doesn't make it noncanon. Even the TV show and magna has plot holes in it. For example in the Television series during the namek saga King Kia says the dead can't die. Yet during the Kid Buu saga When Kid Buu teleported to Other World it was revealed that the dead could die again.

'Sigh' Not to sound rude, but it gets tiresome explaining this over and over every so often. You should check out Dragon Ball canon. In short, there are levels of canon. Additions are only canon if they don't contradict a higher level. For example, a flashback or extended fight sequence in the anime is no big deal. Neither is showing the Kaioshin-Kai Massacre or Training on Kaio-sama's planet for the dead Z Senshi. We're told these things happen in the manga but not shown, and the anime doesn't break any established rules showing them. However, scenes from the anime depicting villains with bodies contradicts the rule that only heroes keep their bodies as a privelege. There's also the Dragon Ball episode with Dr. Frappe whom TOEI claimed created #8, because Toriyama later names Dr. Gero as his maker (and though he did this later, the manga is law in when discussing Dragon Ball). So a movie like the 9th with Bojack fits in perfectly and can be excepted. Likewise the 13th film with Hildegarne has nothing to contradict as it's after the series. If anything, it provides a build for GT somewhat, introducing Goku's RyuKen and giving Trunks a sword. But movie 8 can not fit into the main timeline for the reasons I listed above. The Z Senshi did not during the wait for the Cell Games all band together for a picnic and wind up spending two or three days at the edge of the galaxy battling a foe arguably as strong as Cell himself. Onikage725 20:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Goten and Trunks, tails?

I want to bring this up here before making any changes, but I've noticed this article seems to be written under the assumption that Goten and Trunks were born without tails. Unless this was written somewhere in a published interview I haven't seen, then I think it's fairly baseless. If halfbreeds weren't born with tails, then explain Gohan's? And the "SSJ father" excuse could only apply to Goten. Both versions of Trunks were sired prior to Vegeta's transformation. Goku and Gohan's had been repeatedly removed while they were young. By the time Trunks and Goten are born, the consequences of an Oozaru's rampage are well known by the Z Senshi. Not to mention that a random Oozaru scare from one of the kids would be utterly without point thrown in the middle of the Buu Saga. Unless anyone has a reputable quote stating they were born without tails, the only real conclusion is that the tails were removed. Keep in mind that in the Saiyan Saga everyone was frightened to see Gohan had a tail, and Goku later becomes aware that he murdered his grandfather in Oozaru form. Piccolo also has to contend with a rampaging Gohan, and Goku has to struggle to help Gohan maintain some sense of reason during a similar rampage. I highly doubt anyone would allow newborn Saiyans after this point to pose the same risk. Onikage725 21:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, because it makes no sense for them to not have tails at birth. I think their tails were removed the quickest of anyone's. metalhead 18:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

That makes the most sense to me. Besides, the purple Oozaru that Trunks would most likely become would just be silly-looking. Noneofyourbusiness 21:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Gogeta SSJ2

I added Gogeta to the list of people to reach SSJ2, unless someone has proof he wasn't SSJ2 KojiDude 14:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, that's touchy. I've seen promo art where he looks more like an SSJ than SSJ2, and in these pics looks different than in movie 12 (where he definetly looks SSJ2). However, supposedly it was said that he was SSJ in some related material in Japan (I can't offer a source or citation right now though). Onikage725 02:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Un-necasary edits.

IP users with similar IP Adresses are constantly adding false/un-needed infromation to this artcle and others without providing any proof or making any notice of it on the talk pages. I think the users' edits should be watched to determine how to hadnle it.KojiDude 19:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Vegeto was a super saiyan 2. If you watch the episode or read the manga, you will see that he has the lightning effect, which the super saiyan transformation does not include. Hence he is a super saiyan 2. This is a neccesary edit, which i think you should use. User:indianhitman 21:11, 19 June

He was a Super Saiyan. We don't know what level he was at. Vegeta and Goku fought Kid Buu as Super Saiyajin 2s for a time, and there was no electricity in their auras. Does that mean they weren't in SSJ2? Electricity (or lack thereof) does not necessarilly equate the presence or absence of SSJ2. There are other features and factors to consider.

Daishokaioshin 03:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

We know that vegeta is a ss2, because when he comes back to earth, he has the lightning effect. Against kid buu, we know that Vegeta is a ss2. Vegeto had the lightning effect. The super saiyan transformation does not have that, only the ascended super saiyan also known as super saiyan 2 has it and ss3. Goku fighting kid buu was a filler anyway and Vegeta fought at his base. Basically if there is no lightning, then he may not be a super saiyan 2. But if there is then he is definitly a super saiyan 2. indianhitman, 1.16 june 20

This has already been argued so many times on wikipedia. The conclusion is always Vegito=SSJ1. Another thing, you should mention your edits on the talk page or edit summary when editing a page, to at least give good reasoning.KojiDude 05:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The only thing that's known is that they don't specify one way or the other. Personally I think it makes the most sense, given how hard he owned Buu, and also given the evidence on lightning. In the manga the lightning is usually a dead give away when the aura is present, only receding when the aura diminishes. In the anime they drew plenty of scenes showing SSJ2 without the lightning, but that is mostly filler. Goku and Vegeta had similar base powers. Neither of them at SSJ2 were a match for Buu. Simple math would dictate that if Vegetto was double the base of either but used half of the transformation strength he would equal out to the same level of power as either of his bases in SSJ2 (this disregards that ridiculous filler sequence where base Vegetto kicks the crap out of Buu- watch GT and Vegeta's filler fight with Kid Buu and you see Toei has an affinity for Saiyans not going SSJ for no apparent reason). What is sure is that we aren't told specifically, but it's also true that in the manga NO Saiyan in SSJ1 has lightning with his aura. Furthermore, regardless of what state he was in, he had the form available to him. He could do whatever his bases could do, so SSJ2 was most certainly within his realm of capability. Onikage725 20:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Fusion warriors aren't just the two fusee's power levels combined, its that multiplied by an unknown amount which is stated in the fusion page itself. As for the electricity, If I knew where to get that issue of the manga I'd check, but for now why don't we just say he was SSJ1, scince every other article about Vegito states that. Saying he was SSJ2 here would cause alot of conflict and confusion. And in answer to your last sentence- Wether or not he could do it isn't the question. Its wether or not he did do it.KojiDude 21:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Beyond them being combined, and a mention made of their rivalry working to their advantage as to why they are such a good warrior, nothing is said about their "power level." In fact the notion of power levels is irrelevant past the Freeza Saga. Freeza's gang slapped a number on everything, noone else did (aside from Babidi's wierd contraption). People act like Rou Kaioshin sits down with a calculater and starts factoring out tables of how fusion will affect a being, but he didn't. And his statement about the Potara being 100 times better is a figure of speech, reflecting his preference due to the Potara's lack of the dance's liabilities (participants must be near identical and in build and strength, time limit, energy drain, overwhelmingly cocky attitude). If the Potara literally increased the fused beings power a hundred fold, then Kaiobito would have been able to handle Buu himself. Also, all any article states about Vegetto is that he became a Super Saiyan. No mention as to which stage of Super Saiyan he was in. It's obviously not 3, but let's be honest- 1 or 2 is up for debate in the absence of ANYTHING being said about it in the manga beyond the fact that he had gone Super. So what do we have to go on? A blatantly SSJ2 characteristic (the lightning with the change), and the fact that by that point in the series SSJ2 was the most viable combat form for his bases in the first place. Onikage725 02:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

When a super saiyan has the lightning effect in his aura he is ss2. That is a fact. It is also a fact that SS does not have lightning. I dont know where you can get the manga. But in the anime, the lightning effect is very clear and visable. go to youtube .com and check it out. Or post this on the imdb boards and they will find this out for you.-

Here http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume42/Db42ch02/420202.gif

Alright, that seems proof enough, but I've never seen the manga- is that what Vegito's outfit is supossed to look like? All black? Oo...KojiDude 23:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Uh the picture is in black and white.Thats why it looks like that. The one used in the anime is what it would look like in the coloured version of the manga. So umm are you going to change it?-

You can change it yourself.

Daishokaioshin 00:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Really? Awesome.-

How come in all the other pages, Vegito never has the electricity? I've been looking at the site and the one you showed was the only time he had electricity...KojiDude 05:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It comes when they really power up or when they give out energy. When they glow is when they usually give it out.- indianhitman 4.34 ,june 21

Probably because he doesn't power up. When Gohan fought Cell he was exerting most of his power. When Vegetto fought Buu he wasn barely breaking a sweat. Onikage725 11:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Vegito had a little bit of elecricity because he exterting alot of power. Vegito never went super saiyan 2 only super saiyan 1. He doesn't call himself super vegito for nothing. Super Vegito is short for super saiyan Vegito. He never went pass super saiyan because he didn't have too after all he did have the upper hand.

Except that normal SSJ doesn't have ANY electricity. Vegeta also calls himself Super Vegeta when he's an Ascended Super Saiyajin. Does that mean that he's just base SSJ because he calls himself "Super Vegeta"? Super isn't necessarily short for anything. It's just a denotation that the individual is a "super" version of themself. Please provide evidence that Vegetto didn't go past SSJ1. Just saying he didn't isn't proof.

Daishokaioshin 02:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

All the video games to feature Vegito states that he is a super saiyan 1 not a super saiyan 2. He did have electricity at one point but that doesn't apply to Vegito. He only went super saiyan. The people who created dragonball z never has anyone skip super saiyan. Next thing you know you would say that gotenks is a super saiyan 2. Gogeta is a super saiyan. There is even action figures that says Vegito is a super saiyan not a super saiyan 2.

Video games are not canon sources of information, nor are action figures. He did have electricity at one point but that doesn't apply to Vegito. You just admitted that he has electricity in his aura. So why doesn't it apply to Vegetto? And actually, Gotenks skipped from SSJ1 to SSJ3, and from base to SSJ3. People have skipped SSJ stages many times. Once you can go to a certain level of SSJ you don't need to go through the others first.

Daishokaioshin 02:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

They're more "official" then video games, but the second daizenshuu mentions Vegetto has more power as a Super Saiyan than a Super Saiyan 3. If that's the source we have to go by, that would suggest he was a SSJ. There's the electricity argument, but we don't see much of high powered Potara fusions at all. Perhaps proposals for legitimacy under both SSJ & SSJ2? Voice of Treason 02:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that would be best. Vegetto only had electricity once and the rest of the time? None. Even when SSJ2's were standing still or resting they still had electricity. Vegito didn't. Let's list him for both. KojiDude (talk) 02:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381303.gif

That page Majin Vegeta as electricity

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381304.gif

That page he doesn't.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume38/Db38ch13/381307.gif

No electricty

Majin Vegeta was always an SS2. His power had been unlocked and as long as He had that M on his head he was an SS2. He can never power down from that state.

Now SS has no electricity and SS2 has electricity. Vegeto had electricity. How can all evidence put Vegeto as SS, when SS doesn't have electricity.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume39/Db39ch06/390610.gif

No electricity. he was fighting.

"None of which has anything to do with Vegetto."

Yes it does. They were both SS2.

Gohan doesn't always have his electricity either.

http://www.nfsupreme.com/hostees/dranet/mangas/showimg.php?file=/Dragon%20Ball%20%26%20DBZ%20Manga/volume35/Db35ch01/350113.gif

Anyway saying that an SS2 always has electricity is like saying that an SS always has a glow. They aren't always there. But when an SS has electricty, it means that they are SS2. SS does not have eletricity. I don't know how you can keep arguing against this. I'm not going to post anything else. If you don't agree then fine. I was just trying to help you-

Golden Hair

I speculate that their hair is not really golden but their MASSIVE power shines through it creating the illusion of golden hair Dragon Emperor

The problem with that theory is that it stays that way when they aren't fully powered. FPSSJ is the perfect example. They walked around like normal. Goku was hrut by a rock. They weren't powered up, just staying transformed. So it's not simply an effect of the power coursing through them. Onikage725 09:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

That example was because the s.s. gives a massive powerup whether or not powered up fully

Categories: Talk archives

Talk:Super Saiyan/Archive 1

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Dragon Ball AF

What does SSJ5 really look like?

Magic Pants

Edits by Infinare

Wrong Super Saiyan Levels

Changing Correct Information

SSJ4

Super Saiyan 4 Addition

Mystic or Super Regular

SSJ3 Gotenks

Legendary medium?

FPSSJ?

Gogeta SSJ1 or SSJ2?

SSJ 2nd and 3rd Grade...

Vegeta Giji Super Saiyan

DBZ Manga

Trunks or Goku?

Half-Human Half-Saiyan speculation.

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Ultra Super Saiyan

Tien vs. Tenshinhan

What does SSJ5 look like?

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Goten and Trunks, tails?

Gogeta SSJ2

Un-necasary edits.

Golden Hair

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