Template talk:Sunni Islam
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[edit] Ahmadi
Ahmadi is not a shool of thought in Sunni Islam. In fact they are not considered muslims at all. → AA (talk) — 04:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
- They're not considered Muslims by 'Muslim' scholars, however in any secular or encyclopedia resource you'll find the under the label of Islam. And according to Wikipedia rules I believe, if the group considers themselves something, we must consider them that to an extent as well. Not so far as labeling Mormons as Jews, but enough to allow sects such as the Ahmadiyya to be called Muslim. However, Ahmadiyya mainly does not have its place on this template for two reasons: they see themselves as essentially a movement that surpasses most likely the bounds of both Sunni Islam and Shi'ah Islam (though it doesn't), and second, Ahmadiyya is neither a school of fiqh nor a school of qalam as we have listed here. However, in order to rectify this and other problems, I made a new section for 'movements'. --Enzuru 00:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- I believe WP:UNDUE would apply in this case. It is reasonable for the opinions on whether Ahmadiyyas are considered Muslim to be made in the article on Ahmadiyya (and maybe to an extent on general Islam articles). However, when things are drilled down into the actual differences (e.g. Sunni/Shia or Fiqh), then the criteria for entry into that classification must be adhered to. Are there any sources which support the view that Ahmadiyyas are Sunnis? → AA (talk) — 21:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- as i said in the edit summary, i don't think there's a single source that claims Ahmadiyya is a part of Sunnism (i don't believe that even the Ahmadiyya themselves claim this). attribution of Ahmadiyya to Sunnism looks like a case of WP:FRINGE/WP:REDFLAG. ITAQALLAH 09:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- I will research this further, but keep the following in mind, that the mainstream Ahmadiyya accept the first four Rashidun khilafat as well as tend to cite Sunni books of hadith (such as here on a Lahori website: http://www.muslim.org/islam/bukhari-corr.htm) and even claim that Bukhari and Muslim are the most accurate books (from an Ahmadiyya booklet online: "Judged on the basis of accuracy, the two most authentic books are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim") . Their current khilafat continues the khilafat of the first four, not necessarily the entire khilafat Ummayad and on. I understand this is all debatable and so forth, so will look for an Ahmadiyya source where they claim to be in the folds of Sunnism. --Enzuru 22:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- For the record, I think the current version of the template looks perfect. It's short, concise, and avoids any controversy. Just my two cents, good work guys. MezzoMezzo 04:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- I will research this further, but keep the following in mind, that the mainstream Ahmadiyya accept the first four Rashidun khilafat as well as tend to cite Sunni books of hadith (such as here on a Lahori website: http://www.muslim.org/islam/bukhari-corr.htm) and even claim that Bukhari and Muslim are the most accurate books (from an Ahmadiyya booklet online: "Judged on the basis of accuracy, the two most authentic books are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim") . Their current khilafat continues the khilafat of the first four, not necessarily the entire khilafat Ummayad and on. I understand this is all debatable and so forth, so will look for an Ahmadiyya source where they claim to be in the folds of Sunnism. --Enzuru 22:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- as i said in the edit summary, i don't think there's a single source that claims Ahmadiyya is a part of Sunnism (i don't believe that even the Ahmadiyya themselves claim this). attribution of Ahmadiyya to Sunnism looks like a case of WP:FRINGE/WP:REDFLAG. ITAQALLAH 09:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- I believe WP:UNDUE would apply in this case. It is reasonable for the opinions on whether Ahmadiyyas are considered Muslim to be made in the article on Ahmadiyya (and maybe to an extent on general Islam articles). However, when things are drilled down into the actual differences (e.g. Sunni/Shia or Fiqh), then the criteria for entry into that classification must be adhered to. Are there any sources which support the view that Ahmadiyyas are Sunnis? → AA (talk) — 21:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What is Sunnism? (rhetorical question)
So, if one goes to the Shi'ah template, or the Ismaili one, or the Alevi one, one sees right away how these groups differ from other Muslims. But what about Sunnis? Like the other templates, the stuff under 'beliefs' is so general most of it applies to every other group. There needs to be something that points out the belief in the sahaba, their uprightness, the rashidun caliphs, and the conflicts of the sahaba between themselves.
The problem? Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Sunni_Islam&diff=135335163&oldid=135335015 Anything about these issues is Sunni-Shia oriented. Now, that's true, they are very Sunni-vs-Shia oriented. But how can we avoid that, after all, that's what we're basically comparing to? I agree, we need to state what makes Sunnism unique without making it sound like we're purposely comparing with the second biggest branch, but how do we go about doing that? --Enzuru 05:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think this discussion is more appropriate for Talk:Sunni Islam rather than this template. → AA (talk) — 07:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- You might be right, I just have a weird habit of organizing a template first and then using it as a checklist of what needs to be done. We'll move the discussion to there then. --Enzuru 08:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sunnism may be used to describe both jurisprudential positions as well as creedal ones. on the jurisprudential side, it refers to using the divine legal sources and applying the understanding of the early Muslim generations. this is typically presented as the four extant legal schools. on the creedal side, it usually means recognition of `aqidah at-tahawiyya, which is accepted by all Sunnis. ITAQALLAH 12:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- You might be right, I just have a weird habit of organizing a template first and then using it as a checklist of what needs to be done. We'll move the discussion to there then. --Enzuru 08:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
