Talk:Sun Myung Moon

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[edit] Quotations and simultaneous interpretation

I've moved this quotation to the talk page until the correct translation and Wilson's commentary is added, perhaps a small section talking about mistranslations:

"But when it comes to our age, we must have an automatic theocracy to rule the world. So, we cannot separate the political field from the religious. Democracy was born because people ruled the world, like the Pope does. Then, we come to the conclusion that God has to rule the world, and God loving people have to rule the world -- and that is logical. We have to purge the corrupted politicians, and the sons of God must rule the world. The separation between religion and politics is what Satan likes most."
- Rev. Sun Myung Moon, Third Directors' Conference, Master Speaks, May 17, 1973

[edit] This article needs a section like this

[edit] Theocracy and criticsm of the USA

Didn't see anything about this in the article but it may be worth noting Moon's comments that "You must realize that America has become the kingdom of Satan" and that the Church will eventually overtake America. This is quoted in this article. The article also has further comments and information about Moon and one world theocracy, Jesus, status of women, evil hamburgers and the Iran-Contra Cover-up which may be notable in the wiki article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.47.117 (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments 154.20.47.117, There is so much of that kind of thing already all over the Internet. All anyone has to do is a Google search on Sun Myung Moon. What is still missing from this article is a clear sober scholarly description of Moon's political philosophy. Moon's organizations spend a lot of money on political activism here in the US and all over the World. The goals of that activism are not clearly articulated so that a sincere researcher can understand it readily. I think all the criticism of Moon's religious pronouncements is just a distraction from what really matters to the public. We allow people to hold their own religious beliefs no matter how crazy others might think they are. Political philosophy and action is where the rubber meets the road. Respectfully Marknw (talk) 15:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Marknw, politics is not my gig, but if you're familiar with "that kind of thing already all over the Internet," I'd encourage you to try again what was unsuccessful for you before, to add material to relevant articles that has both quotations from Moon and commentary on it in published reliable sources. You also have to follow some official and unofficial guidelines to not have it deleted, such as:
1. No original research. Certain conclusions may seem reasonable to you, but reasonable people may disagree. Let the published authors speak for you.
2. Moon's words can be a reliable source for what he said; someone else who's published something needs to be found as a reliable source for what its implications are.
3. Make the entries of proportional length and appropriate content to the article in question. You got your own articles on the subject now (Politics and the Unification Church, Unification Church political views), so don't try to put the whole text or irrelevant points in other articles that have lots of other things to talk about. Write a summary specifically targeted for a particular article.
4. Integrate your text into the article, and pay attention to the flow of the article as well as any repetitiveness you may have inadvertently introduced.
5. Be willing to be flexible with wording. Sometimes a small change in wording, with no real loss of important meaning, can satisfy all those involved and mean the difference between your whole entry being deleted or not. For example, I remember you were quite inflexible a few months ago with a section that included the phrase "The Reverend Dr. Sun Myung Moon." What was that about?!? First of all, titles are not normally used in articles. Worse, in at least one article the phrase was jarring and out of place, and looked like someone added a section without even reading what came right before it.
6. Work with people. Don't be a bull in a china shop.
Also - Special request - Compose your posts in a word processor or gmail, review them several times, go take a break and come back to re-read, use a spell-checker, etc., but whatever you do use the bloody "Show preview" button and try to limit the number of edits you make for a single entry, especially on Talk pages!!! - Exucmember (talk) 16:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your confidence in me Ex. I feel shy about it. What I see in this article now is the section "Basic Teachings" that is allowed to stay unquestioned but has no real information in it. Beliefs are "beliefs." I do not see how it is relevant to anybody but a Unificationist. Other articles on Moon, in other encyclopedias, say something like "Moon devised a system of beliefs loosely based on Christianity and Korean mysticism" Spelling it out the way it is here looks a lot like witnessing with no scholarly commentary. But, my point has always been, if a section like this that discusses the "religiosity" of Moon is allowed to stay uncommented, then there needs to be a section of at least of equal length dedicated to Moon's "Basic Political Teachings." I personally have yet to see a scholarly article on the subject. My direct experience in Unificationism is that the best and brightest minds, and the biggest money, went towards political activism rather than religious activities. From watching the press it does not seem that has changed. In the build up to WWII Adolf Hitler and his comrades also devised a literalist "blood lineage religion" loosely based on Christianity and German mysticism (which they sincerely believed in) and became the means and justification for their fascist political activism.

"The Nazis presented themselves not as a political party, but as a movement with a worldview that claimed every aspect of life. In this, they made essentially religious claims."
- The German Propaganda Archive

The intellectual community at that time failed to educate the public before catastrophe occurred. When I look at Unificationism, just on the face of it, it looks like good old fashion fascism with a new religious wrapper. No one goes around anymore calling themselves a "fascist" because it is very unpopular, but as I said before if you observe the readily identifiable political traits of Unificationism, it is very clear:

anti-communism
corporatism
nationalism ("Cheon Il Guk")
autocracy
adoption of one language (Korean)
opposition to liberalism
religious homogeneity
populism
collectivism
subordination of self to the state
anti-secularism

to name a few. Here in the good 'ol USA we allow people to be Unificationists, fascists or communists or whatever. However, a "scholarly" encyclopedia article should cut through the superlative PR jargon and the partisan opinions and call a spade a spade. I'll try to write something and run it by you'all before I post it. May take a while. Respectfully Marknw (talk) 18:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Here again for everyone's benefit is Wikipedia's definition of fascism:

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism."

Respectfully Marknw (talk) 18:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Exucmember, BTW, Forgive me for saying so but, I didn't appreciate what seemed to me to be a patronizing tone above. All of my edits in the past were in good faith. I don't think that being a perfect editor is a requirement. I do not have any articles on Wikipedia as you said. Those that you referred to are someone else's creation. I haven't touched the UC articles in a long time. I was scared off. I finally wrote my own web page and added it as an external link. I tried to add a section to the UC article but it was repeatedly removed by you, Steve and Ed even though I tried very hard to work with you on it. I was even forced to seek protection from the Wiki staff but that didn't stop you'all from eventually removing it. That was very discouraging. I still think you can be little more patient with newbies. It was beyond me to understand why I was being fought so hard in trying to get a simple section added to the UC article about Moon's obvious political beliefs when the huge religious teaching section stays unchallenged. Supporters might see him as a only a religious leader but that is just their POV. He is also a political leader and that is well documented in his writings and his speeches and his actions. This is far more important to the public than his "religious teachings." Respectfully Marknw (talk) 08:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, Marknw, I did not have the slightest desire to be condescending, and did not think I was being so. I also certainly thought all your edits were in good faith. Now I'm the one who feels discouraged. But I guess it's good that you told me or I never would have thought it could come across that way. I took the time to write what I did above for only one reason, because I thought you had something valuable to say but before when you tried to say it you broke too many official and unofficial rules of Wikipedia. I was just trying to be helpful.
Okay I did have one other reason. Another editor has recently been hugely more uncooperative than anything you ever did (in fact you may never have felt you weren't being fully cooperative), and he seemed to go off the deep end. So I wanted to criticize his actions again. That's largely what led to my adding the line about the bull in a china shop.
Editing here is an exercize in trying to at least "get" the other person's POV even if you don't agree with it. Even Sontag concluded that the church's origins were genuinely religious. And any organization that calls itself a religion (even Scientology) is quite within reason to quote a published source (their book of teachings) to give a brief overview. Having talked with other ex-members on the Internet in the first few years after I left, my impression is that the majority felt one good aspect of the experience was the genuine religious life they sometimes experienced. And claims that "the best and brightest minds" were devoted to the political projects ignores the fact that all but one of the IRF programs were led by PhDs, as was ICUS, the seminary, etc. - I think the focus depended on the time period to some extent. I never paid that much attention to the political implications, and members seemed to have a variety of views. I'm just mentioning these things to illustrate that even two critics of the church can have divergent POVs.
Anyway, I hope you'll try again. I felt you had a valuable contribution to make. That's why I wrote what I wrote. -Exucmember (talk) 06:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind reply Exucmember. You know us liberals, we have to get our "feelings" out. I just want to say as a matter of clarification, I do consider the Unification Church as a genuine religion. I just would like to see it get out of politics and abandon its stance on a literal theocracy. There is a lovely tradition there that cannot be denied. The problem with all religions, be it Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Hinduism, or whatever, is when the supporters begin to interpret their doctrines "literally" and then begin to apply it with political activism, as if it were the only one true way for all, people can get hurt and suffer, including those in the religion itself. I am in the process of trying to find some reliable sources for all the things I've been trying to point out. I would never want my research to give the impression that I think the Unification Church or the Moon's are the "axis of evil" or something. Not to be self aggrandizing, but sometimes I feel like El Cid trying to force the king of Spain's hand down to swear on the Bible. Like all institutions, there is both good and bad. I think two good historical examples are the Catholic Church and the Mormons, who, from time to time, lost their spiritual way, and tried to get into the business of running civil government, and then, through a (often painful) learning process, back away from their literalism and political activism, and get back to focusing on the proper role of saving souls. That would be, in my mind, the best outcome. Karen Armstrong said in one interview I heard, "the challenge of every new religion is how to go beyond its founding" (and founder) to find its proper place in society. Thanks again. Respectfully Marknw (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. I have a more pessimistic view of Unificationism's future than you do (or seem to, based only on what you said here). On the other hand, you didn't predict that what you're hoping for could happen soon. I just don't see it in the next generation, for example. As a matter of fact, just a few minutes ago I was reading article in TIME Asia that said of the next-generation heirs: "The sons, especially, are very arrogant," says the former Moon friend. "They have egos that you couldn't fit into a banquet hall." Amusingly accurate. I used to think the best thing that could happen to salvage something good would be, in a height of irony, a schism between the Principle-centered members and the True-family loyalists. But it's hard to see how the "Abel" group (the Principle group) could succeed, having been cut off from the money and power but still having to endure the baggage of the Moon reputation. Might a Moon descendant become a reformer and turn things around? I guess anything's possible in a radically different future. All kinds of other, far more dismal outcomes seem much more likely, however. When I joined the church I noticed it was the people who were the most impressive, well-rounded, intelligent, thoughtful, "together" people of character (though perhaps a bit naive and idealistic) who joined, among those who took the time to sincerely evaluate with an open mind. In the last two decades it seems those people are leaving. -Exucmember (talk) 21:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Exucmember, In my wanderings I found what I think is a good example of the "best and the brightest minds" used for political activism.
Dr. Thomas G Walsh has headed up several of the interfaith organizations like IRF that you had mentioned, but now is the Secretary General of UPF ("Able UN") which sponsored the Sun Myung Moon coronation and which is also calling for "World peace" through the establishment of the Cheon Il Guk theocracy. I see the same faces over and over participating in many of these organizations thru time. Also, billions of dollars have been poured by the movement into the very political Washington Times while the (very small) local UC churches here in the Pacific NW are in debt according to a letter I received from them recently. It all reminds me of something I heard in Sir Kenneth Clark's series "Civilisation":

From this, we can see the consequences of Rousseau’s notion that “natural” man, rejecting reason and giving in to the impulse of the moment, is virtuous. A contemporary who understood was Voltaire; his scathing response to Rousseau’s notion of virtue was, “No one has ever used so much intelligence to persuade us to be stupid.”

Respectfully Marknw (talk) 18:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section on women removed

I took out this section:

Role of women
Moon's views on women as "objects" in a subject-object relationship with their husbands generated further criticism.[1] In 1996 Moon summarized these views:
Each time you build the unity between mind and body or husband and wife, it expands to even greater levels. The first condition for fallen mankind is that of the unity between their mind and body. Upon that foundation you can build the unity between husband and wife. Who stands in the position of subject between husband and wife? (Husband.) American women have the tendency to consider that women are in the subject position. However, woman's shape is like that of a recepticle. The concave shape is a receiving shape. Whereas the convex shape symbolizes giving. When water is poured into a container does it fill from the edge of the container, or from the deepest bottom? (Deepest bottom.) Since man contains the seed of life, he should plant it in the deepest place. Does woman contain the seed of life? (No.) Absolutely not. Then if you desire to receive the seed of life you have to become an absolute object. In order to qualify as an absolute object you need to demonstrate absolute faith, love and obedience to your subject.[2]
  1. ^ The GOP's $3 Billion Propaganda Organ from ConsortiumNews.com
  2. ^ The Parents of Heaven and Earth and the Family of Absolute Unity from Tparents.org (Moon website)

The first reference is an article by left-winger Robert Parry which focuses on Rev. Moon's anti-communist activities. Parry briefly mentions some of Rev. Moon's statements but doesn't say they had generated further criticism. There is also no evidence that Rev. Moon intended his 1996 statement as a summary of his views. A better place to discuss this topic would be in the article Divine Principle as a criticism of DP. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Footnote problem, archiving this page

1. In my browser, when you click on a footnote it jumps down to that footnote as it should, but only if it's in the first column. If the footnote is in the second column in the ref section the link goes to the bottom of the page. Can someone report this to the appropriate person?

2. This page is 262 kilobytes long. Can someone who knows how to do it please archive this page?!? -Exucmember (talk) 02:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Good Morning Exucmember, In my opinion there are some important and informative discussions on this talk page. It seems to me, unless it is absolutely necessary, the page should not be archived. Respectfully Marknw (talk) 15:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
It can't keep growing indefinitely. The last archive was done in January. How long do people feel that a thread should be kept before it is archived? (I've currently set it to a generous 60 days.) As well, there is a utility bot that can build an index of archive pages. AndroidCat (talk) 23:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Archiving shouldn't make the past discussions inaccessible. All the archiving I've seen leaves a prominent link in the upper-right of the page so anyone can easily click to see the content. Wikipedia recommends pages be no longer than 32k if possible. So, both Marknw and I are ignorant of some Wikipedia stuff in our own ways - I know that Wikipedia guidelines call for an archiving at this point, but I just don't know how to do it. Marknw, if you think there are certain conversations that have not come to resolution yet, perhaps you should point them out - it might give someone a good guideline for where to break the discussion above and what to archive now. And can we get some help from someone (AndroidCat?) who is more technically adept with this stuff? -Exucmember (talk) 02:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The current archives are listed up the top jumble and are accessible. (I'd move that to the top, but those templates seem to have a built-in order—I'll look at that.) I've added auto-archiving, and if everything goes well, only threads which have been inactive for more than 60 days will be moved to the archive by the bot when it runs.) AndroidCat (talk) 04:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Good Morning, Thank you both for considering my request so sincerely. Ex is right, I suffer from a little Wiki ignorance. Please don't let my comment interfere with the normal procedures. I'm sure the discussions will come up again and a serious researcher can just go into the archives. Thank you again. Respectfully Marknw (talk) 14:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I just reverted an addition to the intro section. However, this section really could be a lot better. For instance I think it is kind of silly to use the Washington Post as a source for Rev. Moon's view of himself and his religious mission. Steve Dufour (talk) 19:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BLP

Please remember that this article is intended to be a biography of a living person. Thanks. I removed a long quote which was only one person's opinions and a list of people which was only sourced by an "anti-cult" website. Both of them don't really belong in a WP BLP. I am sorry that I have been too lax about this kind of thing before. Steve Dufour (talk) 23:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)