Talk:Sumo/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Sumo As a Rigged Sport

Surely some space ought to be devoted to the allegations of, among others, Steven Levitt (author of Freakonomics) that sumo is partially rigged, and the evidence he provides to support that claim?

Macrons

Is the "o" at the end of Sumo a long o or a short o? WhisperToMe 04:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's long, so you might transliterate it as "sumou". --Auximines 08:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Recently, macrons were added to the Sumo article. I reverted these changes as soon as I saw them, and I did so for multiple reasons:

  1. The changes were too selective (Tokyo, Osaka, Ozeki, Asashoryu, etc. were all left unchanged; only one instance of 'sumo' was changed).
  2. I see no precedent on Wikipedia to support the addition of macrons to Roman representations (romaji) of Japanese words (especially when a particular form without macrons is already in heavy general usage).
  3. Some of the changes were incorrect. Dohyo is not 'douyo' but rather 'dohyou' (when written out hiragana character by character). The 'uu' in Makuuchi is not an extended vowel but rather the ending of one part of the word (Maku) and the beginning of another (uchi).

I suggest the macrons remain removed from the article for the time being and their possible addition can be discussed here. --R. Durham Evans 14:09, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Some of these changes are incorrect. Please read: Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles WhisperToMe 03:06, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Also, in the case of Tokyo, etc, they do not need macrons as "Tokyo" is a standard English spelling. WhisperToMe 03:08, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for providing the link to the style manual -- I was not aware it existed. It does indeed clear up some things.
The change you made to 'dohyo' is still incorrect (it is not "do-yo" but rather "do-hyo"), so I have fixed that. However, the style manual says the properly romanized form (i.e. with macrons) should only be used the first time the word appears for clarification and in the form of "English (Kanji rōmaji)". Your changes do not fit this usage.
I reverted the change to 'maku-uchi' because I see no need for the hyphen. The style manual makes no mention of hyphen usage, but the common usage is to separate the main part of a word from its suffix/prefix (e.g. "Fuji-san"). "Makuuchi" is short for "Makunouchi" and is a whole word. Hence, there is no need for a hyphen. Also, "Makuuchi" is the standard romanization as used by the Nihon Sumo Kyokai.
As for the 'Tokyo' comparison, it was made because 'sumo' is a standard English spelling as well, hence I did not see a need for the macron. --R. Durham Evans 04:27, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You were quite correct to revert sumo. Dohyō does need a macron, although admittedly not where Whisper put it (I'm afraid he does this sort of thing a lot). I was going to add the kanji for the various terms, but I'm not sure if that would actually be particularly helpful here. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 09:34, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)
Yes, that change was my mistake. I focused on the "doh" without considering the "hyo" x_x WhisperToMe 03:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm back. My question is how can we make clear in the article that "makuuchi" is maku/uchi and not makūchi? WhisperToMe 04:02, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think it is already plenty clear. There is no reason to divide the two u's up (would you write the verb 'omou' as 'omo-u' to keep people from thinking it was 'omō'?) And as I have stated before, "makuuchi" is the standard form. --R. Durham Evans 04:29, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps mentioning (The word is NOT makūchi) would be a good idea if neither dashes or apostrophes are appropriate for placing in, because there are anime fans and casual users who would read "makuuchi" thinking it was "makūchi". (Anime fans, as you know, tend to use wapuro in naming) WhisperToMe 00:26, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---The difference between makuuchi and maku-uchi is really academic. Anyone who has listened to Japanese people talk with any speed will see that they will often pronounce supposedly distinct words such as maku-uchi as makuuchi. Kotooshu is a perfect example. Are the announcers saying Koto-oshu or Kotooshu? Sounds like both. Does it matter? -from occasional contributer ---Actually, Koto-ōshū has a short "o" followed by a long one: a triple-length "o." Interestingly, there are actual examples of Japanese people using a "w" to represent successive "u"s. One such is Katswra. I haven't noticed their name in ten or fifteen years, so maybe they're out of business (or I've become able to ignore it), but they used to do something automotive, and had their logo plastered on sporty cars. But of course I'm not suggesting we write makwchi. Anyhow, look at this to see a related discussion. Fg2 00:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The talk page sounds like a good place for that --- glad you mentioned it!Fg2 01:37, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

Link to amateur wrestling

This article links to amateur wrestling, but since sumo is a professional sport (as well as an amateur sport), the link seems odd. Of course, pro wrestling is even farther from the mark. Can anyone see a better article to link to, or would it be best to remove the link?

No, that's where it should link. Read the article in question. I think amateur wrestling is simply misnamed, but sadly I can see that being common usage. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 17:35, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)
Misnamed, I agree. Probably Wrestling (sport) would be more appropriate, but there are a lot of links...Fg2 23:18, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

Dohyou

'dohyou' is a specific word for a sumo ring, not a generic term for 'arena'. See the Japanese wiki article on dohyou: [1]

Can't read that, but nice of you to change it back. I got that crazy idea from my dictionary. --Marco 20:41, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well it basically says that a dohyou is a lump of earth of which sumo is fought :) I double-checked it with a Japanese friend. --Auximines 22:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Personally I trust the dictionary more, but it looks like I'm alone there. --Marco 06:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Samurai?

The recent edits added the text "Professional sumo can trace its roots back to the Edo Period in Japan as a form of sporting entertainment. The original wrestlers were probably samurai who needed to find an alternative form of income." Can anyone cite a credible source for samurai wrestlers? It seems unlikely. Fg2 21:38, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Samurai or farmer, which is more likely? --Philip Nilsson 13:01, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Whoever has the body—that would have been my guess (more below). Fg2 22:46, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Samurai

The Edo period ushered in a period of peace and stability in Japan. Many rank and file samurai effectively lost their jobs as retainers to a lord usually because he could not afford their upkeep, and if they did they usually could not find another master. They became ronin or masterless samurai. It is one argument that some of these people formed into groups giving wrestling and other displays of strength. These displays, which were often sponsored to help some form of local cause, did not have a good reputation at first with unauthorised fights and even deaths. However they eventually were formalised and became respectable, and in due course led to the professional organisations being formed. Personally I am sure that there may have been others, such as farmers etc. as well, but certainly the ronin group were a major influence. Nashikawa 19:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I knew about ronin, but had never heard that many of them became rikishi. My guess would have been that wrestlers were for the most part people who had the body for it, and could have come from any class (yes, including farmers), but I wouldn't write my guess in an article. Incidentally, the article 大相撲 in the Japanese Wikipedia is one of this week's articles selected for strengthening, so if you speak Japanese, you might want to contribute to it. I don't see any mention of samurai or ronin there, so it would be a valuable addition. Fg2 22:44, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Since reading the comments I have gone back through a number of English language books I have on Sumo, my Japanese is not quite good enough to read easily. The three I would consider most authoratative (Grand Sumo by Lora Sharnoff, Sumo, a Pocket Guide by Walter Long, and Sumo Watching a translation from Tsutomu Kakuma) all mention Professional Sumo's origins and the masterless Samurai issue, so I am not guessing here. Similarly there are more details on the issues related to event control issues specifically mentioned in the Walter Long book, including a period when sumo displays were banned in Edo. The stories also all fit with my understanding of Japanese history of the time. One method that the Shogunate used to keep control of the daimyo was to attempt ensure they were spending sufficient money that they could not afford to destabilise the ruling family from which the Shogun were drawn. One classic example of this is the Toshogu shrine at Nikko where all the lords were expected (read forced) to contribute lavishly. Many lords ended up in debt. This policy meant that in many cases lords were unable to retain as many warrior class subordinates (or samurai) and effectively some were let go. It is also the case that most lords would have held and trained significant numbers of samurai during the period of instability preceeding the victory of Tokugawa Ieyasu. Clearly in the period that followed such numbers would not be necessary. For a samurai who lost their master, it was difficult to get a new position with one's high class status in this climate. Furthermore, many samurai class people who retained their lords, were actually fairly impoverished. Some took to making things such as, for example polished cherry bark artifacts in Kakunodate in Tohoku, and umbrellas elsewhere to suplement their income. These "high class" art-like production activities allowed them to make a basic living without getting involved with tasks innappropriate to their class. Thus rank and file samurai class individuals did not have an easy time of it and it would be easy to see how strong individuals in the category would be attracted to a life in sumo, which as a martial art would be tough but at least an acceptable way of life. Nashikawa 20:00, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

Sumo has roots in rituals of old?

I cant exactly remember where I first read/heard it, but doesnt Sumo has something to do with old fertility rituals, (possibly Shinto), from long before Edo?

Rituals? Quite right. See second paragraph of article. As for fertility, I don't know. Fg2 10:46, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

On a similar note, it would be nice to include an estimate on the origin of Sumo. The article points to the Edo period as the source of modern professional Sumo, but I've heard the sport is incredibly old, possibly B.C. --Feitclub 01:18, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

I have added a brief origins section but am not an expert on this area. What is certain is that pre Edo period sumo was not the same as sumo today, as the belts/loincloths probably did not allow the belt grip techniques of today and the concept of a ring was still in development. Sumo and Shinto are linked in all sorts of ways. It is not possible to give a definitive start to sumo as it certainly evolved out of pre-written history forms of wrestling. One of the first histories of Japan even has the gods carrying out wrestling matches. I would certainly believe that the roots go back to BC times, and with no written data to go on, its roots will always be lost there in my view. Nashikawa 23:58, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I knew it was a lot older than the Edo period, but the article didn't go back any further. Now it alludes to a truly ancient history. --Feitclub 04:24, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

I recently heard that in Kansai sumo was primarily Daimyo challenging each other with their best fighters whereas in Edo, where the city was still developing, Sumo was used to raise money to build Shrines. I also heard that Oda Nobunaga was a "sekkachi" guy and didn't like the long drawn-out sumo so he made the ring small and changed the rules to the modern rule of any part of your body other than the bottom of your feet touching the ground constitutes a loss. I don't have references and I heard this from my Sumo Otaku hairdresser. Has anyone else heard of any of this? --Joi 02:04, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Genekirikishiichiran

What is Genekirikishiichiran? --Auximines 21:42, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe it is meant to be "Genki Rikishi Ichi Ran" which I think means "currently active top ranked wrestlers" or something similar. There is a clear problem here to be sorted out.Nashikawa 00:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"ichiran" means "list"; in the Japanese Wikipedia, loads of articles have "ichiran" in the title just like many English WP articles are "list of". So if the article were written by a native speaker of English the title would probably be "List of active sumo wrestlers." Fg2 21:10, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

The criteria for winning are fairly straightforward...

Famous last words? Shini-tai boggles my mind every time, personally speaking; and aren't we also missing the case of lift-out techniques where the lifter is allowed to himself step out? (For which I can't recall the correct terminology.) Alai 06:28, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've thought for some time that this section is unnecessarily long. Items 3-5 in the list are very rare, and doubtless there are other ways to be disqualified (not turning up, for example). Another exception is that a wrestler may win despite touching down first if he touched down in order to prevent injury to his opponent - Konishiki did this a few years ago. How about simplifying this section to keep only the first two items in the list, possibly with a note to the effect that there are also other ways to be disqualified. A detailed discussion of shini-tai, undone mawashi, etc. belongs further down the article or in a separate article. --Auximines 09:37, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you view re length and balance also and have modified the text to emphasise the main methods, whilst leaving comment on the more unusual methods. What do you think? Nashikawa 18:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Much better, I think: gives a better impression of what's usual, without claiming to give an exhaustive case-analysis. Alai 18:58, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree, it's a great improvement! --Auximines 22:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I notice that the section is called Winning a Sumo bout, but the contents describe how to lose a sumo bout. MikeWilson 01:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Techniques, etiquette, naming

I was wondering if it would be appropriate to put some form of a guide involving the various strategies involved in sumo. For instance, slap-outs/downs, push-outs, and throws are generally the most common types of strategy, even moreso simplified to pusher-thruster and mawashi-type sumo. Perhaps that would also go into sumo etiquette perhaps? For instance, a henka (a step-aside at the tachiai followed by a nice push down to the back of the head) is legal in the rules, but very against etiquette, and can hurt chances at promotion.

There is also the discussion of match-fixing which can be pretty well proven (there is an economic study by an economist at the University of Chicago found here that discusses the issue in quite a bit of depth, plus there is the frequency of articles complaining about the issue).

Should these appear in a separate article? Or can they be inserted into this one?

Finally, I was debating inserting the proper Japanese next to each of the romanizations in kanji, because they aren't impossible to understand to an extent even for people who don't know Japanese. Because of the extent of shared kanji within sumo (like 関脇　関取　大関), I think they could be a useful inclusion. You also would have benefits for those who watch sumo in Japan but don't understand what all the kanji that pop on the screen mean...

--Joshua Maciel 04:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi Joshua, I think the techniques deserve another article, since there are so many of them. Would you like to start one? Match-fixing might or might not develop to become extensive enough for an article of its own. Serious allegations deserve to be somewhere, and the main article on sumo might be appropriate for it, or separate. Regarding kanji, my personal feeling is that we should not include kanji for terms that have their own articles. For example, the sumo article has a link to sekiwake, and so the kanji are just one click away. Even gumbai has an article! Since the kanji are so easy to find out, I don't think we need to duplicate them here. I agree with you that they're useful and beneficial! But I think having them in one place is enough. Here's another thought: maybe Wikipedia or Wiktionary or Wikibooks would benefit from a sumo dictionary. It could have the romanized term, the kanji, and a definition (which of course people could contribute to). If it's in a different Wiki, the Wikipedia article could have a link to it so that people could find it easily to read it and contribute too. A lot of people would really appreciate it! Fg2 07:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
Well, I got started on filling in kanji for the sumo-related terms that didn't have them yet. And I guess that with summer vacation upon us, I could start a guide of the various techniques involved, though it will take a while to get them ALL done, as they should have pictures and whatnot, and it will require a tad bit of Japanese research to get said photos and whatnot.

Sounds like a good way to spend a few days of the summer actually. Very splendid. And I think that I'll start with a corruption section in the main sumo section around professional sumo, just to bring it up, because it is pretty prevalent, and it's interesting and beneficial in understanding sumo. I can add it with a bunch of information on how much sumo wrestlers make and the method of acquiring cash, and the various schemes for it and whatnot.

Thanks for the comments. --Joshua Maciel 07:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I just want to reinforce the interest expressed in a section on technique. That's actually what I came to the article for, and although I'm glad to have learnt about the organizational side of the sport, I'm still hungry. --Wegesrand 13:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Women in Sumo UPDATED

I notice that the current article has nearly no mention of women in sumo, either in a historical or modern context. As one of the relatively few remaining sports with nearly no female participation at the professional level (for traditional reasons), this seems like something important to mention. I could put something together based on some web resources ([2], [3], [4], [5], [6]), but maybe this topic would be more delicately handled by an expert on the subject. If no one else wants to do it, I'll try and put together a brief section this week. -- JRP 05:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Please go ahead and knock yourself out with it. Since you seem to have read the most about it, you should be the one to blaze the trail forward. You may, however, want to make it a separate page perhaps, since sumo is so traditionally male, and that anyone searching for sumo will most likely be searching for the information presented above. Putting in a mention that sumo is an all-male sport (at least professionally) and linking to another article will allow you to present all the information without having to stick in semi-relevant information to the main article.
But I'm no expert on wiki etiquette, but it would just seem to make sense methinks. Then you could link it to categories such as women's sports and whatnot as well.
-Joshua Maciel 06:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Though there was talk of this, it seems noone added anything about women, I put in a paragraph at the end of the Pro Sumo section. I tried to keep it balanced and to the point. Hope everyone approves. Malnova 01:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

How do Sumo wrestlers gain weight?

How do Sumo wrestlers gain so much weight? Are people selected to be Sumo wrestlers based on genetic predisposition for gaining weight? In addition, I'm curious when in its history the large bodyweights became an important factor in Sumo. I'm interested in knowing more how weight plays a factor in Sumo, since it is rarely mentioned in the article.

Sumotori gain weight due to muscle gain and fat gain. Muscle is gained through intensive training and often moderate weight lifting. Fat is gained by training in the morning on an empty stomach (metabolism is lower, so less fat is burned off), eating a large fat-heavy lunch (chanko), followed often by a nap (to allow the fat to be absorbed into the body before it can be used).
Looking back several decades, most rikishi were rather slim. Yokozunas Futabayama and Taiho, for example, did not have large amounts of fat (although Taiho got a lot larger towards the end of his career). More recently, however, there has been a trend towards heavier wrestlers. The most obvious examples are the Hawaiians Konishiki, Musashimaru, and Akebono, but also Takanosato and Onokuni (both Japanese) were rather large.
In terms of the importance of weight, a larger wrestler generally has greater balance, but much reduced speed. A lot of times the larger wrestlers tend to rely on their size rather than their technique, often using either oshi/tsukidashi or yorikiri kimarite. Technique and strength, I think, are more important than size alone. A good example is Asashoryu who is not all that large (though he has been gaining a lot of weight recently) but is clearly dominating. Another good example was Mainoumi who was so technically skilled he could beat wrestlers like Konishiki and Musashimaru despite being 1/4 their size.
R. Durham Evans 23:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Mainoumi was incredible. His quickness and technique were just unstoppable. I remember one bout, I believe against Konishiki or Akebono (either way, a clear mismatch in size), when the two rikishi were locked up in yotsu, and in the blink of an eye, Mainoumi ducked under his aite's arm and executed a lightning quick sukuinage or shitatenage and won very cleanly. As good as they are, I'd like to see Hakuho or Ama pull off that kind of technique against a guy Kotonowaka's size. -Tadanisakari 00:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
On a recent TV appearance Asashoryu admitted that before major matches to bulk up he eats an average of 十五、二十人前 (15 to 20 times what an average man would eat) per meal. He also said that he has to be careful not to eat to much because it becomes very hard to see when his face gets too bloated, and then preceded to smile thus completely blocking out his eyes. Just in case you wanted to know : ).   freshgavin TALK    05:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction regarding possibility of a draw

The article says "The gyoji is obliged, even in bouts too close to call, to authoritatively decide a winner." but soon afterwards states "Further deadlock can lead to a draw, which is an exceptionally rare result." --David B.
Done. It was the order in which the first paragraph explained the decision process that appears to contradict the later paragraph. Since noone had "fixed" this yet, I went in and "fixed" the order a little bit to make this more clear. Malnova 02:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It's still just as unclear to me. The first sentence now says "The gyoji is obliged, even in bouts too close to call, to immediately designate a winner", so the words "authoritatively decide a winner" have been changed to "immediately designate a winner". And the second sentence now says "Further deadlock can lead to a draw, which is an even rarer result", so the words "exceptionally rare result" have been changed to "even rarer result". It still reads like a contradiciton to me in that at one point it says that a winner must be designated, and at another point it says that a draw is possible. --David B.
The gyoji can only designate a preliminary winner if one (or both) wrestlers have been knocked off their feet or out of the circle. IF they stay deadlocked for several minutes with noone being knocked over or out, then there is the apparent possibility of a draw. Which is just what it says, I thought. Anyway, I went in and tried to make the apparent contradiction more clear. Let me know what you think. Malnova 00:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Adding the word "preliminary" gets rid of the apparent ambiguity, but what a bizarre requirement! -- David B.
Yes, it is rather bizarre. It is also a heavy burden on the gyoji, who is said to lose a little face whenever he gets a judgment wrong, which is of course impossible to always avoid. Malnova 22:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, draws are not given out in modern sumo. I've never seen a second mizu-iri, but I imagine if the bout goes for three four-minute periods, the rikishi might be just too tired to go on... However, I believe it's true that every bout in modern sumo has a winner and a loser. Can anyone reading this page confirm whether a hikiwake draw has ever occured in the modern era? Tadanisakari 08:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Tegata

I put together a little tegata section that I want to put just before the amateur sumo entry. Is this okay with regular contributors here? Malnova 4 December 2005

Tegata sounds like an interesting contribution! Please do include it, at least somewhere. Fg2 09:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I am happy for a section on sumo memorabilia, including tegata, although another possibility is for a separate page on the topic. If it expands significantly this would be best in my view, whereas at its current length it is okay in the main article. Nashikawa 15:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

What are the arguments for/against "hand shape" and "hand print"? -- Mike Wilson 23:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

"Hand shape" is a literal translation of the two kanji in the phrase; "hand print" is a literal translation of the meaning of the compound word. Although I didn't look at a dictionary prior to changing from "shape" to "print," now that you asked, I looked it up in Obunsha's Handy English-Japanese Japanese-English Dictionary, a little pocket dictionary. The first definition they give for "tegata" is "hand print." They do not give "hand shape," although a bigger dictionary might.
This is sort of like trying to translate the word "manufactured" into a foreign language. The literal meanings of the Latin roots might lead one to conclude that the word means "hand-made," but the literal meaning of the modern word itself is quite distinct from those of the Latin roots, and usually means "machine-made," often specifically in distinction to "hand-made." Fg2 01:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Kenkyusha's big green says "a hand print". "Hand print" seems more easily understood in isolation. -- Mike Wilson 03:01, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The literal meaning of the kanji for tegata is hand shape, hence the use of the word "literal". The fact that it is a hand print and means so is perfectly understood from the explanation following. If you look thru the other "literal" definitions of the words used in this article you will see the same kind of thing, such as a torinaoshi meaning, literally, to "take and fix". If it is going to be an issue, we could just take out the the literal reference itself, as the explanation following explains what it means anyway.

memorabilia

It should be noted that most box seat and "tsuna-kaburi" (front row cushion seats) available to normal fans are sold through the tea houses. The tea house sell a package with the ticket and the souvenirs. The actual price charged for the package is much higher than the face-value of the ticket (the one time I treated myself to this it was around 3-4 times if my memory serves me correct). Thus the souvenirs are not included in the ticket price quoted by the sumo association. However, with few exceptions it is difficult to obtain the best seats without getting the whole package through one of the tea houses! (It is possible this has changed in more recent years as sumo attendances have dwindled). Also in my fairly limited experience the souvenirs provided by the teahouses were not items that one could obtain through the sumo shop. Usually they are a little better in quality in my view and the designs were differnt. Nashikawa 22:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

In my edit (yes it was mine, didn't see I wasn't logged in, sorry) I was trying to clarify that there is more than one way to get sumo memorabilia because your edit made it seem as if that was the only way to get memorabilia. I have no doubt that souvenirs given out thru tea houses are higher quality. If you can find a better way to word it, please go ahead, or I might take a crack at it. Malnova 4 December 2005

order of the article sections

Nashikawa, I agree with your point about the ordering of the "comparisons to other martial arts" section, and after taking a look again, I think the comparisons section should be placed last (before references). It seems it would be the least incongrous there, and it would make a nice sum-up for the article. Malnova 20:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me! Nashikawa 12:22, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.sumotalk.net/ sumotalk

Please note that the wikilink

is inactive, at least on my computer, and I supsect many others judging by the revert battle going on here. "" can you please check the link's web address carefully and ensure that it is fully active before including it on this page. Can I also suggest that you follow the rules here and have a discussion about the issues rather than continuously overriding the deletions of various people. Admittedly it would be best if people gave their reasoning for deleting the link, but in any case it would be best if "" could add to the disucssion here before readding the link...Nashikawa 12:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I have just checked and the correct weblink is sumotalk.com, not sumotalk.net. I have added the link back in with the corrected version. The website is a sumonews one and seems appropriate in that context.Nashikawa 12:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Though this site has a news section, the majority of the content is opinion/commentary.

Does that make it unsuitable for inclusion? A website with commentary and opinion on a sport seems ok to me (as long as it is good and up-to-date). (PS can you please remember to sign your talk contributions using ~~~~. This will give a name and date/time stamp for your contribution.) Nashikawa 22:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

International Sumou

I've read at least one article about sumou's growing appeal to non-Japanese wrestlers -- primarily Hawai'ians and Mongols, but also whites. There's even been talk of making it an Olympic sport. It's kind of a big issue both because it's unusual (sumou being a quintessentially Japanese pursuit) and because some authorities have decried the foreign influence. Isn't this a worthy issue to include in here? Brutannica 04:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


As long as it's substantiated and well integrated into the article, I don't see why not. Malnova 09:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Minimum Weight

Does anyone know the minimum weight for a sumo wrestler?

75 kg (165 lb) for seniors, with a minimum height of 173 cm (5 ft 8 in). 70 kg (154 lb) and 170 cm (5 ft 7 in) for juniors (under 18). I think Mainoumi was only 170 cm (5 ft 7 in), but gained the extra height required with a silicone implant placed under his scalp.

Takanohana

The recent info added about Takanohana et al is really info for their individual articles, as the info is not about Sumo directly per se USER:MALNOVA

I agree and have deleted the text. Both Taka and Waka have their own pages, which are linked and that is the place for such detail Nashikawa 22:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yen

And how much is a Yen? The salary section told me nothing. --Striver 18:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Added a wikilink to the currency page -- this includes a dollar - yen exchange history, although it looks like it could be updated... Nashikawa 22:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Sumo names

There is some discussion on the Asashoryu talk page about whether wrestler pages should be given as family name first as most are at the moment or given as given name first which arguably conforms to the manual of style. If you have a view on this please look at the discussion and add an opinion, as what is decided here will probably have to become the standard for all sumo wrestler pages. Nashikawa 22:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sumo Rankings

Could someone add a section as to what the rankings descending from Yokozuna are? I think that'd be appropriate for this article. (Stuey 182 01:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

Who fights who?

The Professional Sumo tournaments section does not seem to say anything about who fights who. I understand this is a bit of a smoke filled room process with lots of discussions of the merits of the fighters and various match ups. Can any information on this be added? crandles 19:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Added a paragraph -- what do you think.. Nashikawa 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a very small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 21:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)