Talk:Sumer

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I doubt the Sumerians had a heliocentic model of the solar system. Is there proof? 24.205.91.162 22:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no proof. In fact they were undoubtably geocentric believers as their

cosmology and their astronomical records clear show. John D. Croft 17:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Have changed "Sumerian speakers spread down into southern Mesopotamia because they had developed a temple-centered social organization for mobilizing labor and technology for water control, enabling them to survive and prosper in a difficult environment."

to read

"Farming peoples spread down into southern Mesopotamia because they had developed a temple-centered social organization for mobilizing labor and technology for water control, enabling them to survive and prosper in a difficult environment." as there is no evidence to show that the first farmers spoke Sumerian. In fact, the absence of Sumerian language in historic times in the Samaran region suggests that the first farmers were not Sumerian speaking. John D. Croft 17:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Have reinstalled my map, in place of the current one, as it shows sites that were not found in the one that replaced mine. John D. Croft 17:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

There has been some research by linguists to link Sumerian to the current language family of Hungarian and Finnish (Magyar), is this of interest to mention at all? --stasis101 22:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Sumerian is established now as language isolate! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscientific_language_comparison
First: above link points to a complete propaganda page. It has been discredited on the talk page.
Second: the page above link points to does not talk about Sumerian as a 'language isolate'.
Third: Sumerian is NOT a language isolate. It is well and alive continuing in Hungarian. This was proved by Prof. Dr. Badiny-Jos on the 29th Orientalists World Congress, 1973, Opening Session. The title: "New Lines For a Correct Sumerian Phonetics To Confirm With The Cuneiform Scripts". Prof. Badiny was a Dr. of Sumerology, a student of Anton Deimel - the Father of Sumerology. Prof. Badiny used Deimels 'system' in proving his theory. Besides Samuel Kramer himself says that Sumerian is the relative of Hungarian. Additionally Prof. Deimel agrees that Sumerian is relative to Hungarian. So why would it be dead or isolate? And yes, it is VERY important to mention this otherwise the article becomes a propaganda. (Magi)


Contents

[edit] Language and writing

I have edited "The Sumerian language is generally regarded as a language isolate in linguistics because it belongs to no known language family;" to "Some regards Sumerian as a language isolate in linguistics because they believe it belongs to no known language family." I did that because it is the case.

I have deleted "Akkadian belongs to the Afro-Asiatic languages." because it is irrelevant where Akkadian belongs to. This is a Sumerian page.

I have deleted "There have been many failed attempts to connect Sumerian to other language groups." because it is irrelevant. Who cares about failed attempts?

I have added info and reference about the relation of Sumerian lang. (Magi) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.122.121 (talk) 16:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Akkadians were well mixed in with the Sumerian population, and private and off-hand remarks do not constitute a scientific basis for making Sumerian a Uralic language. Sumerophile (talk) 18:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
What is a private remark about a presentation on the opening session of a world congress? Regarding the private letter of Deimel to Badiny it is still an expert opinion published in a book. As it is both are within Wikipedia guidelines. Please reinstall my edits.(Magi) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.95.112.161 (talk) 02:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnogenesis of Sumerians?

I don't get it, their language was not related to the other Semitic languages in the region, their culture developed of it's own accord with out influence from the Akkadians, Assyrians, etc... so how can they be a Semitic people? Where exactly did they originate from? Gamer112 (talk) 12:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date

I removed the date. --Vonones 04:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there any Reliable source for an "Armenian" origin of the Sumerians? Is this theory just a rehash of the Book of Genesis, or is there some other primary source used to support this theory? If so, this should be stated. Til Eulenspiegel 04:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
What Armenian origin? I never said that. --Vonones 04:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, are we on the same page??? Or perhaps in some parallel universe??? Til Eulenspiegel 04:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
What Armenian origin? of the Sumerians? I wrote they descended from Armenia, not Armenians since there were no Armenians during that time. --Vonones 05:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
If you insist repeatedly that the Sumerians "came from Armenia", my friend, that is what is known as an 'Armenian origin". Til Eulenspiegel 05:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Well that is the region, not the people you said Armenian origin of the Sumerians, I said they descended from Armenia that is a major difference. --Vonones 05:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
There are claims of origin or whatever you want to call it, "Nevertheless, it may be deduced that the earliest Sumerians who introduced civilization in our world were around 85% Austric and 15% Armenian Aryans." Tracing the Origin of Ancient Sumerians By Ashok Malhotra --Vonones 05:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
We don't want to "deduce" anything here. This is Wikipedia. It has not even been established with anything like a reliable source that Sumerians were indeed "85% Austric and 15% Armenian", as your favorite but highly questionable source asserts. Til Eulenspiegel 05:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
  • According to Sir Leonard Woolley's thesis (a world renowned British archaeologist who excavated in Mesopotamia for decades) The Sumerians themselves were the descendants of the Armenian Aryan settled communities in Armenia... --Vonones 05:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
That is pure nonsense from the mainstream POV, but it should certainly not be presebted as a fact. Til Eulenspiegel 05:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I know that, but I am referring to the area known as Armenia, again Armenian and Armenia are very different Armenia as in land, Armenian as in people. I brought up those references because you wanted them, I did not even add those to the article. Also the second one is pretty reliable right? you obviously do not like it though your own POV let me guess this is your expertise thats why? --Vonones 05:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Trust me, there are just as many "scholars" and "sources" who think the Sumerians came from the south, from the west, from the east, from the Carpathian basin, and even (yes, I'm not kidding), from outer space. There are those who say they never came from anywhere but were always there, and those who disagree. However, the available records do not allow any of these 'pet hypotheses' to be proved, and that's a fact. Til Eulenspiegel 05:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
My latest quick research showed it is agreed between historians that there location is not precise or it was in Mesopotamia and Armenia. --Vonones 05:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
It's painfully obvious that it's not your "area of expertise". At first you tried to write several times that the Sumerians descended from Armenia "1500 years ago", or in the year AD 507. Your authority for this statement is apparently the same one who claims the Sumerians were "Aryans". Does he really say this? Has he even looked at the Sumerian language vis-a-vis the Aryan languages to state this? Til Eulenspiegel 05:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
No that was only one source for the 1500 years ago. Thats why I removed it and rephrased it with other references. I'm not claiming it I use scholarly/historian references. --Vonones 05:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I thought that the most accepted hypothosis of there ancestory was they are desendent of the Ubaid culture that evolves some 7,000 years ago. Enlil Ninlil 06:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


the sumerian name for god was "dingir" dingir-tenger-tangra-tengri ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.228.139.211 (talk) 13:36, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Actually, 'dingir' means something like deity or fairy. God doesn't have a name but called as 'Creator' = 'TE-RAM-TU'.(Magi)

[edit] Propaganda?

Physical anthropologists have studies the skulls of Ancient Sumerians and arrived to certain conclusions. However, an editor is now edit-warring to prevent the inclusion of this information:

"It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen." (Carleton Coon, The Races of Europe, p. 83)

The 1939 Time article quoted may be anti-Nazi "propaganda" but it is certainly factually correct. The date of Coon's studies unless newer reliable sources contradict his view. MoritzB 19:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how the 1939 TIME article you are using as a reference is "anti-Nazi" propaganda; it actually sounds strikingly reminiscent of what the Fuehrer's doctors themselves were desperately telling the world, about how all the people of Ancient Mesopotamia were essentially Nordic, since no-one else could have possibly founded civilization, ho hum, yawn. It all sounds rather quaint now, considering how much vastly more we know about Sumer today. The Nazis looked long and hard trying to establish a connection between the "Nordic race" and all of the Mesopotamians peoples (Kassites, Sumerians, Hurrians, etc.) but these 1930s sources have to be taken with a grain of salt today, not proclaimed reliable. Who in the last 40 years has claimed that the Sumerians had a "Nordic skull shape"??? ROFL!!! Your TIME Magazine source doesn't even specify Sumerians per se, it merely repeats the claim circulating in numerous sources of the 20s and 30s (eg Max Muller, et al) that all "Mesopotamian" peoples were similar to Teutons. Til Eulenspiegel 21:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this anti-Nazi propaganda? "If Anthropologist Coon thus makes short work of perverted Nazi claims of "race purity," he also offers no help to that school of racial opinion which would combat anti-Semitism by denying that any such thing as a Jewish race exists."
Furthermore, Coon does not say that the Sumerians were Nordic. According to Coon: "The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man of variable stature - as whites go, usually short to medium; his bones are light, but strongly marked for muscle attachments if these muscles have been well developed through use."
(C.S. Coon, Caravan : the Story of the Middle East, 1958, pp. 154-157)
Lastly, Wikipedia is about verifiability. The article and Coon's books satisfy WP:RS MoritzB 21:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I would disagree that a 1939 political propaganda piece satisfies RS or NPOV; the Sumerians are now known to have caleld themselves "the black headed people" and outdated attempts to connect them with the Anglo-Saxons are purely misleading, as any reliable Sumerologist will assure you. There is no serious consensus for Coon's views in 2007. Til Eulenspiegel 21:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The original sources are C.S. Coon, Caravan : the Story of the Middle East, 1958, pp. 154-157 and Carleton Coon, The Races of Europe, p. 83. They satisfy WP:RS. I provided the Time article because it is available online, also. MoritzB 21:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
After reading Carleton S. Coon, I am more than ever convinced that this is far from mainstream or up-to-date wrt what we now know about Sumer. Til Eulenspiegel 21:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Then please provide reliable sources which prove that. Coon's views about evolutionary history are dated but that has nothing to do with craniometry. MoritzB 22:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The burden is on you to find a reliable source for the more bizarre claim, not on me, my good chap. Why not look into what mainstream sources more reliable and up-to-date than a "social darwinist" like Coon say about the ethnicity of Sumerians? Til Eulenspiegel 22:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Donald Mackenzie said that "it seems doubtful, therefore, that the ancient Sumerians differed racially from the pre-Dynastic inhabitants of Egypt and the
Pelasgians and Iberians of Europe. Indeed, the statuettes from Tello, the site of the Sumerian city of Lagash, display distinctively Mediterranean skull forms and faces." (p.8, Myths of Babylon and Assyria) Mackenzie's work is older.
I am not aware of any later scholarship about the physical appearance of Sumerians. Thus, it seems that we have to accept Coon's/Mackenzie's view. MoritzB 22:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
We "have to accept" this outdated view, just because -you- are "not aware" of the scholarship? Are you a Sumerologist? How can you form a consensus on your own? In 1939, in wasn't even common knowledge yet that the Sumerians called themselves "the black-headed ones". That revelation came along with Kramer, probably the top specialist in the field of Sumerology. You should read what he wrote about their appearance and ethnic affiliations, for starters. In the meantime, I see no consensus among editors here for adopting these out of date fringe views of social darwinists. We can possibly mention them as a historical interest and state that they were views of social darwinists in the early 20th c. like Coons, but it would not be NPOV to adopt a disputed POV as if it were indisputable. Til Eulenspiegel 23:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Coon wrote his book years after Kramer and definitely agreed that the Sumerians were dark-haired. What is your point? Coon was the head of American Association of Physical Anthropologists and a very respected scientist.
Whether he was a "social darwinist" is irrelevant.
Besides, the Sumerians were surely dark-haired like most people in the region. Can you name any references at all which might dispute Coon's and Mackenzie's views?
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje35/sh14.jpg
Leonard Woolley's reconstruction of a Sumerian queen.
http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje35/text11p.htm
MoritzB 00:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not irrelevant that Coons was a social darwinist; it qualifies him under WP:FRINGE. My point is that there is no consensus in the field whatsoever asserting any close affinity between Sumerians and the English or any other Teutonic peoples, and your edit is misleading to suggest there is. Til Eulenspiegel 00:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Carleton Coon wasn't a Social Darwinist and even if he was it would be irrelevant. Even Marxist sources are not considered WP:FRINGE on Wikipedia as it is sufficient that the studies have been published in peer-reviewed journals or by reputable publishers. MoritzB 00:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
A compromise: "The Sumerians were a Caucasoid people of Indo-European stock and resembled modern Arab inhabitants of the region".

Source: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-6682(193110)2%3A22%3A2%3C187%3AMS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza speculates that Kuwaitis may be their descendants. The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 252.
For the record, Coon also had the view that Sumerians resembled Arabs (and Englishmen) closely. MoritzB 00:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"The Sumerians were a Caucasoid people of Indo-European stock and resembled modern Arab inhabitants of the region." First of all, cut the "Indo-European stock" bit. That's hogwash. Indo-European is a reconstructed language group, to which Sumerian DEFINITELY does not belong. And second, insert the word "probably" after the word SUmerians, since it is far from a certainty, and there is room for doubt. Then we might have a compromise. Til Eulenspiegel 00:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"The Sumerians were a Caucasoid people and probably resembled modern Arab inhabitants of the region. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza speculates that the Kuwaitis may be their descendants." This should be OK.MoritzB 01:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
the whole question is flawed. there isn't a single idenfifiable "descendant" population of "the Sumerians", and I do suspect Cavalli-Sforza is being quoted out of context. The entire thing should just be removed as irrelevant and misleading. dab (𒁳) 07:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
No. The Kuwaitis are genetically distinct from their neighbors in some respects according to Cavalli-Sforza and he speculates that Sumerian descent might be the reason. Please read the book if you don't believe me. Scholars have also written a lot about the topic and we might include some other theories. At least the Turks claim that the Sumerians were ethnically Turkic. MoritzB 14:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Everyone has, Armenians, Turks, Scots etc have claimed they are descendants of Sumerians most likely nationalism or outdated context. --Vonones 01:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "cuneiform ... pre-dating Egyptian hieroglyphics by at least seventy-five years"

Surely there's something wrong or missing here? Who can resolve the beginning of either of these to within seventy-five years? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.39.33.125 (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

This wording seemed ludicrous to me too. I have Been Bold and deleted it from the article. 132.244.246.25 (talk) 09:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sumer City List

I have recently created the Sumerian city articles Kuara, Kisurra, Dilbat, and Marad and moved all coordinates to their appropriate pages. Therefore I have removed the unneeded coordinates for the cities in this Sumer article. I have created a list that looks better, but may need to be modified, as I do not know how to create a two-column list to discern Major cities and Minor cities. Thank you. -Kain Nihil 13:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I would propose moving Awan and Hamazi to the "major column", since at one time these were independent city-state kingdoms with dynasties of their own, while Borsippa perhaps ought to be "minor" for the same reason... Til Eulenspiegel 13:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually looking over the list, a few others on the "minor list" were once proper city-states, while a few on the "major" list weren't, like Girsu. Surely Umma was quite powerful at one time to be "major". Really I would like to see a listing of all the city states that were ever sovereign, followed by the ones that never were. Til Eulenspiegel 13:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you feels appropriate. Awan does not have an article though just a disambi. page. If no one makes one soon I'll get around to creating another sumer (major) city article. -Kain Nihil —Preceding comment was added at 13:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Culture

Can anybody extend the caption of the gold statuette with a reference to where it can be found? Baghdad? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.194.186.2 (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] City Population

What was the size of the Sumerian city population ?

--Blain Toddi (talk) 16:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Which city population? NJMauthor (talk) 00:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

City populations are variously estimated by the size of the city and the density of houses per hectare. Uruk is believed to have maintained a population of 50,000 for a long period, making it the biggest in the world at that time. Mesopotamian cities were generally larger than those elsewhere. If you are interested I'll send you the spreadsheet on city size. John D. Croft (talk) 03:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lugal-Ane-mundu and Eannatum - First Empire?

Til Eulenspiegel brings up an interesting point, for which I don't have the answer and would like to ask about here: did Lugal-Ane-mundu of Adab precede Eannatum of Lagash? From what I know of the king list and archaeological date ranges, I can't tell. And also did LAM's conquests extend beyond Sumer and become an empire? Sumerophile (talk) 00:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Passing off Akkadian, Babylonian, Hurrian, Elamite, Assyrian sources as Sumerian sources

It is well known that the Sumerian pantheon, mythology and culture was in many ways adopted by Sumer's predecessors and neighbors. However, retroactively labeling sources from the above cultures as "Sumerian" is simply falsehood.

For example: The Enuma Elish, Akkadian and Babylonian versions of Ziusudra's flood myth, Akkadian and Babylonian versions of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Hammurabi's Code, etc. are all NOT Sumerian documents and must be labeled as non-Sumerian sources if used in this article.

Documents with the names Ishtar, Nergal, Marduk, Ea, Anu or other Babylonian and Akkadian name variants or singular dieties are also suspect. If a "Sumerian" document features the fully-developed city of Assur, something is amiss. If, in the "Sumerian" document, the Absu or Tiamat are anthropomorphized, something is probably off.

Thanks for taking the time to check your sources, people. We can make this article on Sumer a whole lot better if it's about Sumer. NJMauthor (talk) 00:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sumerian cities

Is there a reason for the cities to be listed from North to South?

The progression of settlement and culture in Sumer was broadly from South to North. If there are no objections, I'd like to reverse the order of the cities. Sumerophile (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

A good idea. Feel free. John D. Croft (talk) 03:57, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory derivations of KI.EN.GIR

I have corrected the contradictory origins of the word KI.EN.GIR. John D. Croft (talk) 01:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shinar

John, why are you changing the reference to Shinar to make it sound factual? NJMauthor (talk) 06:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sumer may not be the oldest Civilisation

The statement, "land of the Sumerian tongue"[2][3] possibly Biblical Shinar), located in southern Mesopotamia, is the earliest known civilization in the world" cites Sumer as the oldest civilisation in the world. However there are earlier known civilisations like the Indus Valley Civilisation (pls read Mehrgarh) whose cities predate those of the Sumerian Civilisation. Eridu, which dates to 5400BC is considered one of the oldest cities of Sumerian Culture. However, Mehrgarh existed around 7000BC, which is about 1500 years earlier. Mehrgarh not only had proper townplanning and roads, but also one of the oldest granaries ever discovered. Perhaps you should change Sumer to "One of the earliest known civilisations in the world". Ambar wiki (talk) 11:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that timestamps had not yet been implemented in the 6th millennium BC - so there is room for disagreement among scholarly sources on questions like "who was there first". I agree that "one of the earliest" is safer for NPOV though. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Later Mesopotamian Gods

Why does the image "Geneology of Later Mesopotamian Gods" belong in this article? This is an article about Sumer, not Babylon or Assur. NJMauthor (talk) 04:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

As the author of the graphic, it contains all the names in Sumerian of the Sumerian divinities, as well as their Akkadian names and functions. John D. Croft (talk) 03:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Earliest known civilization" POV yet again

I know this has been discussed at length, but an anonymous editor is repeatedly altering the intro to state that Sumerians are not "among the earliest", but undisputedly "THE earliest" civilization. The only problem is, that POV is not undisputed. In fact, it is hotly disputed. Therefore we have to adopt the more neutral language explaining that it is "among" the earliest, which no one should seriously disagree with, since this wording does not specify if it is the strictly earliest to "qualify" or not, which is unknown. I suggest reading the article "civilization"; a major requirement for it, similar for the requirement for "history" as opposed to "prehistory", is the development of writing and records. We have to be consistent with our other articles stating the accepted view that the Sumerians and Egyptians (and perhaps others) developed writing roughly within a few hundred years of 3500; therefore this is the final requirement for "civilization", and the edits stating that they were the first "civilization" in 7000 BC or 5000 BC (when there are no written records) is inconsistent with the definition of civilization as including literacy. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The anon is clearly not interested in taking part in discussion or in responding to my above paragraph; but rather, despite having been blocked once already, he continues to edit war his substandard version relentlessly, at first commenting with half-baked racial insults blindly directed at me, and now with no kind of explanation whatsoever. There is no chance this juvenile behavior will be tolerated here; any changes to the status quo of the lead information will need to be accompanied with at least some discussion or explanation at a minimum, if they are to be longstanding ones. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ready for upgrading the quality of the article yet

Hi folks, what do you think? John D. Croft (talk) 04:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event

Could not find this via search. Thinking that this would be a huge add on for Ancient Astronomy and the Cuneiform script or under Sumer page. The meteor clipped a mountain! [1] Thanks, Marasama (talk) 05:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

highly dubious. A 7th century BC document giving details of a 32nd century BC(!) event? Academic reviews are needed. dab (𒁳) 10:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)