Talk:Sukhumi massacre

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[edit] POV, Factual accuracy

This article needs a lot of work. As of now, its sole purpose seems to be to vilify the Abkhazians. It's full of highly dubious claims (ritualistic cannibalism, huh?!?), which are not supported by any sources whatsoever (what a surprise). Hence the plethora of the {{Fact}} tags. There was at least one instance of the article providing definitely false information: the Abkhazia's case is not under the ICC's investigation. Óðinn 06:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the article intends to vilify someone. A massacre is a massacre; it either happened or not. All the horrors of the slaughter of unarmed men, women and children are heavily reported by eyewitnesses and are submitted for investigation to the ICC. I'm not sure, however, if the investigation is underway right now. If still in doubt, you can check a number of reports by international human right organizations.--Kober 07:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The article is full of grisly and baseless accusations. Ritual cannibalism (my personal favourite), children being killed in front of their parents, disembowlement, etc. And of course, that wouldn't be a real Georgian history-related article if the evil Russian "Take no prisoners" perpetrators weren't mentioned. Classic! So, Somebody should either provide sources for all the {{Fact}} tags, or remove these dubious claims altogether. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


Unfortunately, this is only an incomplete list of atrocities committed in Abkhazia. I'm pretty sure the author of the article will provide more than enough sources for these claims. --Kober 16:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Atrocities were commited by both sides. And yes, I'm looking forward to seeing some sources Óðinn 16:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there were many human right violations on both sides, but those committed by the Georgians cannot be compared to the methods practiced by the rebels and the Noth Caucasian mercenaries. FYI, more than half of Georgian casualties have been reported after 1994, i.e., when a ceasefire accord was signed. Abkhaz reprisal raids against the Georgian-inhabited villages continue to this day. I once met a Russian-speaking "veteran" of the war against Georgia on one of the forums, who was still proud of himself for playing football with severed heads of Georgians in Abkhazia.--Kober 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, really? How about the destruction of the Armenian village of Labra by the Mkhedrioni? And many similar atrocities? The fact that you've met some ugly people does not make all the Abkhazians who were fighting a bunch of cannibalistic rapists Óðinn 17:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Labra was destroyed during the Abkhaz second failed attack on Sukhumi in 1993; and not only the Mkhedrioni soldiers contributed to that. There were hundreds of Georgian "Labras". Have you ever heard of the local Armenian batallion "Bagramyan" who ruthlessly killed even ethnic Abkhaz who dared to shelter their Georgian neighbors? --Kober 17:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The citations will be available. As for cannibalism, it was taken from the Andersen report on Abkhazia (see bellow in Bibliography). Abkhaz drinking Georgian blood is considered as cannibalistic. "evil Russian "Take no prisoners" perpetrators weren't mentioned. Classic!" oh so that’s why you are exploding? You have typical biased pro-Russian POV. Where are your sources? Where are your actual support for contradiction of the article? If this article goes not agree with your Russian views, it does not mean it is inaccurate. You did not demonstrate any sources (primary and secondary), documents, etc to support your dashing and accusations. The sources are available in bibliography section. Refrain from Russian POV pushing and maintain strictly NPOV rule. Kober, i don’t think we should feed the trolls. Ldingley 17:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
"Ldingey & Kober, Do not feed the troll"
"Ldingey & Kober, Do not feed the troll"
Óðinn,you reveal a POV yourself by claiming that ICC is not investigating the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. Just a year ago they started to look into the allegations. The sources are vast and they are reliable. Please look into the bibliography. The citations will be directed to the sources. Before labelling or claiming anything, consult the sources and review them carefully. Also as i have noticed from other Georgian related articles, you tend to have POV on many topics. Please refrain yourself from POV pushing and maintain NPOV which is one of the most essential pillars of Wikipedia . Ldingley 14:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Ldingley, that's not a claim, but a fact [1]

"...However a formal investigation has not yet been opened" It might behoove you to consult the sources before you suggest others do that. Óðinn 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"International Criminal Court in The Hague, is investigating claims which alleges Abkhazian side of committing ethnic-cleansing and genocide against Georgians during the 1992-93 civil war." United Nations Press Release, DTL0955, June 29, 2004
International Criminal Court will significantly contribute to the rule of law, which is the basis for Georgia's democratic development and a necessary prerequisite for its integration into the world community. The ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of citizens from their homes clearly indicate the urgent need of a mechanism that would be capable not only of prosecuting the perpetrators, but would also serve as a strong deterrent against future conflagrations. War crimes are becoming even more elaborate and sophisticated. Suffering of the civilian population, the massacre of children, the rape of women and the torture of prisoners still remain invariable companions of modern warfare. Such crimes get even more severe and brutal when it comes to non-international armed conflict, as has been witnessed in various countries, including Georgia, where the most serious crimes are still being perpetrated by those who are unhampered either by morality or by law. Piter Chkeidze, from submitted doccument for Criminal Court in The Hague, 2001
"..As a result of the conflict in Abkhazia, Georgia, about three hundred thousand people, predominantly Georgians, as well as representatives of other nationalities - were forcefully driven from their homes, and today, this area is run by the benefactors of internationally recognized ethnic cleansing as recognized by the OSCE Summit Declarations in Budapest (1994), Lisbon (1996) and Istanbul (1999)." United Nations Security Council meeting New York, July 11, 2006
Thanks for citations, Luis. Great work!--Kober 14:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
" EU is deeply concerned about the great number of refugees from Abkhazia living in Georgia, and deeply concerned about the continuing process of ethnic cleansing of Georgians in the Abkhaz region," Resolution issued by the European Parliament. 10 December 2001.
"United Nations welcomes the decision of the Secretary-General to send a fact-finding mission to Georgia in this regard, in particular to investigate reports of ethnic cleansing" Resolution 993 adopted by the UN Security Council. 30 January 1997
" UN expressed their deep concern over “ethnic cleansing”, the massive expulsion of people, predominantly Georgian, from their living areas and the deaths of large numbers of innocent civilians." Protocol the 7-th meeting of Experts’ Group of authorized delegations of the sides within the negotiation process on full-scale settlement of Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. 4 October 2004.
"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will present to the UN materials on crimes against humanity, genocide, ethnic cleansing and military crimes committed by separatists and address a request to the UN to establish an International Tribunal." Resolution 1077 UN Security Council.
"FROM THE LISBON SUMMIT DECLARATION OF THE OSCE:
20. We reaffirm our utmost support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders. We condemn the ‘ethnic cleansing’ resulting in mass destruction and forcible expulsion of predominantly Georgian population in Abkhazia. 2-3 December 1996
"..All this is happening in Gali, at the background of tragic events of February 1994, March 1995 and May 1998, which took the lives of hundreds of innocent people; the atrocities committed by the separatists have been assessed by OSCE and UN as ethnic cleansing targeted at changing the demographic situation in the region. John Mc'Cormick, Protocol of the Gali Meeting, 11 May 2001.

[edit] sources

Kober, please help me to insert the citations and they are from the following:

  • Dmitry Kholodov, Moscow journalist covering the Conflict, 1992
  • Chervonnaia, Svetlana Mikhailovna. Conflict in the Caucasus: Georgia, Abkhazia, and the Russian Shadow. Gothic Image Publications, 1994.
  • Marshania L. Tragedy of Abkhazia Moscow, 1996
  • White Book of Abkhazia. 1992-1993 Documents, Materials, Evidences. Moscow, 1993.


From Human Rights Watch and U.S. State Department, 1993-94.


VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR IN THE FALL OF SUKHUMI
The fall of Sukhumi in September 1993 offered Abkhaz fighters an unprecedented chance at revenge for what Georgian fighters had done the year before, and a wave of atrocities followed. According to The Independent,
Truck-loads of booty have been carted out by soldiers, murders of civilians have been common and houses have been marked according to the ethnic affiliation of their inhabitants ... Tales of looting, murder, rape and arson have also been recounted by exhausted Georgians on the two main escape routes [from Sukhumi].154
The 1994 U.S. State Department Country Reports also describes scenes of massive human rights abuse:

The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory...

The separatists launched a reign of terror against the majority Georgian population, although other nationalities also suffered. Chechens and other north Caucasians from the Russian Federation reportedly joined local Abkhaz troops in the commission of atrocities... Those fleeing Abkhazia made highly credible claims of atrocities, including the killing of civilians without regard for age or sex. Corpses recovered from Abkhaz-held territory showed signs of extensive torture.155
The evidence available to Human Rights Watch supports the U.S. State Department's findings.
The Abkhaz attacks triggered a mass flight of Georgian civilians that international relief organizations "roughly estimated at 230,000 to 250,000 people."156 Some 50,000 of those fleeing came from Sukhumi. Those who fled along the main highway leading southeast through Ochamchira and Mingrelia to Tbilisi had to contend with continuing fighting not only between Georgian and Abkhaz forces, but fighting between pro-Shevardnadze and pro-Gamsakhurdia forces as well. A second road out of Sukhumi led across the mountains behind Sukhumi, the 10,000 foot passes of the Caucasus, through the Kodori valley to the peaks of Svanetia and the Russian border beyond. This route % described by one journalist as a "caravan of trauma"157 % spelled tragedy for thousands. The narrow mountain tracks turned to mud under the immense volume of traffic and the worsening autumn weather. Journalists described scenes of "refugees who had been stranded for weeks, lashed by rain and snow, sleeping fifty to a house or camping out in rickety Soviet-eracars."158 A blizzard in early October claimed many; their bodies remained by the sides of trails in the mountain passes. Those who managed to reach Tbilisi found that the city had little to offer. By October 8, it was reported, Tbilisi itself had "only a week's supply of grain."159
Human Rights Watch finds Abkhaz forces responsible for the foreseeable wave of revenge, human rights abuse, and war crimes that was unleashed on the Georgian population in Sukhumi and other parts of Abkhazia. In Human Rights Watch's judgment, these practices were indeed encouraged in order to drive the Georgian population from its homes. The Abkhaz leadership is responsible in precisely the same way that Human Rights Watch holds the Georgian government responsible for human rights abuse and war crimes unleashed against the Abkhaz civilian population when Georgian forces entered Sukhumi and other parts of Abkhaz territory a year earlier.


155= U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.

159= RFE/RL Daily Report, October 21, 1993.