Talk:Suicidal Tendencies

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1 Subliminal
2 This page is not copyvio
3 All Music Guide
4 Cleanup?
5 First sentence: "is" vs. "are"
6 Girl killed at concert?
7 Sources cited
8 Heffer Wolfe Voice
9 Crossover Thrash
10 Fair use rationale for Image:Controlled by hatred.jpg
11 Fair use rationale for Image:Join the army ST.jpg
12 Fair use rationale for Image:SuicidalTendenciesAlbum.jpg
13 Fair use rationale for Image:Suicidal4life.JPG
14 Fair use rationale for Image:Stillcyco.JPG
15 Band History
16 Grammar- is vs are
17 "Not much commercial success"

[edit] Subliminal

One of their, if not their most well known songs isn't even mentioned in this article.

Is this a copyvio? I could swear the same (or similar) text is at ubl.com... Thunderbunny 04:58, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not anymore. Kainaw 19:56, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--- why doesn't it have a member listing... Xunflash 02:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Add one. --Myles Long/cDc 15:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

___ To the person who mentioned about other Venice punk bands being blacklisted due to Suicidal: there was no blacklist against The Alley Cats or X both of whom were based in Venice at the time (and X was considerably more successful than Suicidal Tendencies) ; however those bands were not tied in with the Muirs and their little clique. The bands like Excel and the (East Venice) No Mercy made conscious choices not to play outside of their little scene. The violence committed by Suicidal Tendencies fans is very documented and was probably more responsible for killing off the Los Angeles punk rock scene than any other factor except perhaps the LAPD. As far as the gang stuff, there is little physical proof and probably none that exists online but at the time it was widely believed there were ties between Suicidal and Venice 13. The existence of a gang called the Suicidal Boys in East Venice who were tied to the Venice Whiteboys who were also in East Venice and Oakwood, who happened to be allied with V-13 who shared those same areas does make strong suggestions that they were.

[edit] This page is not copyvio

I went to suicidaltendencies.com to verify the band lineup. I noticed that much of the text on their band page is nearly identical to the article here. I rewrote the article, mostly from scratch, a year ago. I did not copy any of it from the official ST homepage. So, I can assure anyone who is concerned that the official ST homepage must have copied the text from this Wikipedia article. Kainaw 23:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Mike Muir is a thief! All the songs on their first and BEST album SUICIDAL TENDENCIES were written by other people. Why isn't there any mention of the legal battle over the rites to that albums material? Because just like their violent urges Suicidal remains paralyzed by fear of being discovered for who they really are. Cowards and thieves and worse of all devoid of any talent save a lot of false bravado and bad reputation that cheap gang wanna bees eat up. These guys would be working at good guys or in jail if it weren't for the first incarnation of the band. Now those guys were real musicians not metal hacks like Clark and Co. The thing about it is is those original songs were written by intelligent people who had something to say and were more self effacing than anybody really realizes but Muir and his cronies exploited that music to make a name and rep and career for himself just like the capitalist pigs he sings about he manipulated it to suite his own personal interests and gives no credit to the real artists involved in that first effort. All the Venice white boys who want to be tough and all the vatos who have to crawl over to a punk gang to feel comfortable are living proof there is a hell on earth and that somebody should just expose these assholes for the mindless meat heads they really are. Isn't it funny that after the first album Suicidal never once were able to right a single good punk song. And there are 12 classics on the first one ! Why? Because Muir and Co. are incapable of writing anything even close to that good by himself. Thats why they have all that violence surrounding them because they know they have no soul. Just go to a ST show and you'll know see I mean. A bunch of losers waiting to beat somebody up. Why doesn't somebody draft these guys and send them overseas. Then we'll see how tough they really are. As for the music all you really need is that first Suicidal Tendencies album (1983) and just disregard anything after that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.66.59 (talk • contribs)

Your comment has nothing to do with the topic (copyvio) and it nothing more than opinion. Wikipedia is not a message board. If you have a link to a respectable article that discusses legal battles over ownership of Suicidal Tendencies songs, please provide it. --Kainaw ^(talk) 23:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All Music Guide

(moved new comment to bottom Kainaw 13:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC))

This article is copied verbatim from the All Music Guide (allmusic.com). (posted anonymously by 24.190.209.75 on 8 November 2005)

Wikipedia works best when you read it. If you had read it, you would see that *I* wrote the article over a year ago. Since then, the official Suicidal Tendencies page was redone to contain nearly identical text. Then, All Music Guide was changed to contain nearly identical text to the official Suicidal Tendencies page. Kainaw 13:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup?

Can someone tell me why this page has a cleanup tag? I can't see much wrong with it --Nosmo 13:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's been removed. Did a bit of grammer stuff, but overall, looks good to me too. --Lendorien 01:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First sentence: "is" vs. "are"

The first sentence keeps getting changed from "Suicidal Tendencies is" to "Suicidal Tendencies are". This shouldn't be difficult to understand. In English, any sentence with "is" and "are" can be reversed. While it isn't logically correct, the sentence must remain plurally correct. So, take the sentence "Suicidal Tendencies are a hardcore punk band." Reverse it. "A hardcore punk band are Suicidal Tendencies." That is wrong. So, either "band" must be plural or "is" must be used. Obviously, Suicidal Tendencies is one band, so claiming they are "bands" is wrong. Therefore, "is" must be used. Now I know and knowing is half the battle! --Kainaw ^(talk) 15:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So you'd also find "The Beatles is a British Invasion band" acceptable? "band" is a collective noun in English and can take on singular or plural forms depending on preference. 24.199.113.215 00:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You are apparently using British English. I fail to see how British usage of treating collective nouns as plural applies to an article about a an American English band. So, to answer you question, the proper form is "The Beatles is a British Invasion band" because it reversed to "A British Invasion band is the Beatles." Also note that in British English, "a band" would not be used with "are". However "the band" may be used with "are". --Kainaw ^(talk) 00:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

IT SHOULD BE IS!!! Knowledge Is Power 206.176.107.150 14:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree, but the plural is correct. Just because I'm saying it should use "are", doesn't mean I'm referring to them as a British band. If you see the credits of The Art of Rebellion and Suicidal for Life albums, they even clearly state "Suicidal Tendencies are" (and yes, I do own a copy of these albums). Alex (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So, your claim is that we should use improper grammar because the band uses improper grammar? I suppose we need to rewrite all articles about Prince also to replace "for" with "4"? In American English, collective nouns are singular unless used to represent a variety of verbs. For example, "During their break, Suicidal Tendencies practice, vacation, and study remedial English." When the only verb is "is/are", it is singular. "Suicidal Tendencies is..." If you want, you can purchase every company that prints English books and rewrite them all to change the language, but simply claiming you are right without a real reference isn't worth much. -- kainaw ™ 15:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Responding to the RfC: I agree that the singular should be used. I wouldn't even expect to see the plural in British English - the sentence is talking about the band as a single, gestalt entity, and their name isn't perceived to reference the members, so the 'Beatles' effect doesn't kick in. There's just no reason to go plural. Ilkali (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of arguing with you people about this, but yes, there actually is a reason to for this article to go plural. If you own see the Art of Rebellion and Suicidal for Life albums, look at the credits and you'll see that it states "Suicidal Tendencies are". I would be happy to scan both of my copies of those albums for proof, if that means stopping argument about the plural/singular crap. Their biography on Allmusic.com even states "Suicidal Tendencies were". For the last time (and I'm not going to say it again): "SUICIDAL TENDENCIES ARE" IS CORRECT, SO STOP CHANGING IT. PLEASE. Alex (talk) 23:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It is apparent that you are not reading anyone else's comments. I do not care in any way what is written in the album covers. It is not proper English. Do you have a valid argument for using "are" instead of "is"? -- kainaw ™ 23:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Choosing between singular and plural often depends on the intended meaning. Showing that this sequence of words appears in one place does not, in itself, support the claim that it should appear here.
The language used on their album is largely irrelevant. It's a different resource with a different purpose and different style. Wikipedia does not blindly ape.

Do you claim that the singular version is wrong, or just that the plural version is better? Ilkali (talk) 13:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The "were" in the Allmusic.com bio is refering to the band members and not the band. the wiki article clearly is refering to the band and not its members. Alex, please stop changing this article and learn to recognize when you have been overruled instead of fighting it so much.the juggreserection (talk) 14:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

(Moved from below)

To settle this once and for all, my fellow grammar speakers- the correct usage is "are" in this context. When looking for the answer replace the bands name with "they", as the band is a collection of people. Suicidal Tendencies are not one person but a few people and therefore "they are" something not "they is" something. There's even a rule about this somewhere on wikipedia (cant find the dang thing). It even clearly states in the 3rd paragraph about the band "Although Suicidal Tendencies have never achieved much commercial success during their years of recording and performing, they are often credited as being among the first bands to mix hardcore punk and metal"...now notice the "they are" not "they is" Then look at the first sentence in the band history section "Suicidal Tendencies were formed in 1981 as a hardcore punk band in Venice, California."...now here they say "they were" instead of "they was" and is>was and are>were. I know my english (I may choose it as my major) and it sounds like some people need grammar school =) Hope this settles the issue. Oh and if any smart alec decides to change it they'll have to deal with me =) Happy Holdiays that the Christians stole from the pagans. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 00:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You apparently need to take the grammar school courses that you claim others need to take. When a band name is referring to the independent members of the band, such as "Suicidal Tendencies went their separate ways," it is plural. When it is referring to the band as a singular unit, such as "Suicidal Tendencies is a band," it is singular. Hopefully you can't get a degree in English without understanding the basic rules of English. -- kainaw ™ 13:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I will try to find the rule in wikipedia in my spare time, that supports what I said. See Judas Priest. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 17:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

'Is' should be used, see wp:engvar. In American English, bands are seen as singular. The Judas Priest article uses 'are' because in British English bands are treated as plural... British subject = British grammar, American subject = American grammar. Funeral 17:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright here's the truth of it:

"Read WP:ENGVAR. A quick way to better understand proper grammar is to simply substitute any band name for the word they. A band is a group of people so "they" are a "they". And does it sound right to say They is a British band??? The United States is the only English speaking country that uses the singular to describe a group. All other countries use the plurual. On Wikipedia, as per WP:ENGVAR if the subject of the article is American... use American English form. For subjects originating from anywhere else... or subjects that are international (not just in music)... then use the internal form of English for both spelling and grammar. "

This comment was left on the Judas Priest page. So it is actually proper grammar to use "are", however, since this band is American, and we use sloppy English, per WP:ENGVAR it can be kept the way it is...but only because the band is American. If this band was from any other country it would be "are". But it's not, so the sloppy english get's to stay I guess. I'll point out I was still right, though, at least in proper English usage. So, I'd like to remind you kainaw about WP:CIVIL and that I'm not the one who needs to take the grammar courses, obviously. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 17:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Further up in this conversation is the quote: "You are apparently using British English. I fail to see how British usage of treating collective nouns as plural applies to an article about a an American English band." I do not understand why there was ever any confusion about which form of English we were using. As for being civil, you are the one who stated "it sounds like some people need grammar school." Are you suggesting that you need to read WP:CIVIL? -- kainaw ™ 19:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Relax, alright? My only point was that it is proper English to use "are"...I mean I don't even do that when talking, but this is an ecyclopedia and we therefore want correctness. However, as I said before, it's an American band so proper English doesn't neccesarily apply. No harm done. Happy upcoming Christ-dying-day-that-was-really-a-pagan-holidy-stolen-by Christians day, to all. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 20:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait, you were saying all this stuff about correct grammar, and you say "correctness"? i wont even say anything.the juggreserection ^IstKrieg! 21:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh, where do you see that? I see "correctness"...but I also won't say anything. Also, even if I had made a mistake, what's the big deal? Is one not allowed to make a mistake whilst typing? I happen to make plenty and I think that's fine as long as I didn't do it because I don't know how to spell. But I assure you, I do know how to spell, though, even if I do make errors. PS when trying to sound smart and snide make sure your information is "correct". Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 23:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

i just thought it was funny.the juggreserection ^IstKrieg! 14:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is OK to remove the RFC tag now. Correct? -- kainaw ™ 15:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 16:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed the RFC. Consensus is to use "is" based on American English usage since the band is an American band. Hmmm... I could say "Consensus are" and start up a whole new argument... -- kainaw ™ 16:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

okay, it are been decided and we never have to argue about it again.the juggreserection ^IstKrieg! 16:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Girl killed at concert?

Is there a citation for this? 24.199.113.215 00:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about anyone being killed at early Suicidal shows, however their fans were known to cause trouble, get into fights, and commit vandalism in just about every venue they played in. The band was surrounded with an aura of violence, not helped by their fans' violent tendencies (even by the standards of early 1980s Los Angeles area punk rock). I have no idea if there's a cite for this, but its occurrance wouldn't surprise me.

[edit] Sources cited

I don't note any cited sources in this article. Editors, please review the content and include sources for the statements or reduce the content. Alan.ca 08:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heffer Wolfe Voice

I read on a page on the 'pedia that the voice for Nicktoon character Heffer Wolfe was based on a Suicidal Tendencies singer. Is this true? WizardDuck 02:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossover Thrash

Couldn't we also add another genre to the list? I mean, they basically ushered in a new sub-genre. Trivium9786 14:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Controlled by hatred.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Join the army ST.jpg

Image:Join the army ST.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SuicidalTendenciesAlbum.jpg

Image:SuicidalTendenciesAlbum.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Suicidal4life.JPG

Image:Suicidal4life.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Stillcyco.JPG

Image:Stillcyco.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot 11:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Band History

I removed the following sentence from the first paragraph. Nothing preceding it says who "Evans" is.

Evans wasn't in the band long and was quickly replaced by Louiche Mayorga.

thx1138 04:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar- is vs are

(Moved to proper section above)

See the section above. Alex (talk) 02:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved comment to proper section. Please comment above and not down here. -- kainaw ™ 13:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Not much commercial success"

There was a line about "not much commercial success". Self titled is the all time seller of the hardcore era, about 350,000. This is twice as much as any DK record, and 3X as much as any Black Flag. And as mentioned elsewhere in the article, they went gold (500,000) three times after the crossover happened. Not shabby at all for the genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.147.147 (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot use album sales after the band became popular (after the "How Will I Laugh Tomorrow" release) with the bands success before they became popular. They struggled with releases on Frontier Records. "Possessed to Skate" was the just enough of a success to get them signed with Epic, which gave them the backing to become a huge success. Coincidentally, MTV's "Headbanger's Ball" started up the year before, which also led to more interest in the genre, leading to more success for the band. -- kainaw ™ 22:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)