Talk:Sufjan Stevens

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as b-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.
More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: Took this to B class, because I believe it is a pretty good background on Sufjan Stevens and his works, but lacks a lot on his early life, and could be expanded and written better. If you have any other ideas, please let me know your thoughts.--Fresh 21:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC) (edit)

	Alternative music Portal This article is part of the Alternative music WikiProject, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage of articles relating to Alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the Project's importance scale.

[edit] Archives

• /Archive1 - Through November 2006

[edit] Christian themes - original research

IMO this whole section is really running afoul of WP:NOR. Apparently one editor decides to come up with novel interpretations to emphasize Stevens' lyrics in relation to Christianity; then a second editor decides to balance the content to deemphasize it; and round and round we go. Any interpretation of the lyrics aside from the trivially obvious constitutes original research. Some basic Christian references are probably just too obvious to ignore, and the same might be the case of other sorts of references. But attempts to piece together a picture of Stevens' faith or lack thereof belong in someone's doctoral thesis, not in a Wikipedia article. Please support these very soon with published sources (the citation for "Lord God Bird" is duly noted and should be preserved) or I plan to revert them, regardless of whether they're seen as pro-Christian or pro-secularism or whatever. Cheers, PhilipR 05:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I nearly gutted the subsection yesterday, but thought twice for some reason. I agree completely, it's nearly all original research. Frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to removing everything but the first paragraph or so (and the Lord God Bird blurb). Everything else is unreferenced. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree As I said above: I'm not sure the in-depth analysis of every Christian metaphor presented in his songs is needed to be posted on this page. (including biblical references, etc.) It just seems to take things way to far for this wiki page? Any other thoughts? I suggest keeping it simple with a couple quotes and perhaps a brief stance on his religious position. I would go as far to delete it. Onishenko 20:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree too! But can't we find a reputable 3rd-party source analyzing some of this? Dybryd 04:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

unsure isn't it obvious that his lyrics are jam packed with Christian references, though? i can pick out waaaay more than was posted on the wiki page. that's just the tip of the iceberg User:claydoc 18:15, 23 December 2006

Of course, but it's not the place of Wikipedia editors to do original interpretive work -- even making explicit what seems to be clearly implied. That's WP:OR There must be a third-party source writing about this we could quote, though. Dybryd 23:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. The section is rambling and collegiate. But Sufjan's Christian themes are very important to his music, and should definitely have a section, so there needs to be something like a summary with references and a couple of more-direct lyrics.Yours etc. 01:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Minor point - I was just checking reference 6 in the main article, and I can't see the quote in this article in the referenced text at all. Could someone either correct me, or the article?Shahid1618 15:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought the AV article is pretty clear that he attends an Anglican church. While this doesn't mean he is a Christian, it seem pretty significant. Amandamae 23:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course it means he's a Christian, silly buns.

[edit] Comparisons

The comparison to Guaraldi I removed relied on this sentence from Amazon.com: "Illinois sounds like The Sea and Cake collaborating with the high-school band from a Wes Anderson film on banjo-driven, pulsing meditations on Vince Guaraldi's music for Peanuts." PuerExMachina 06:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

That's fine, add it back in and footnote it if you wish. I wouldn't have made the Guaraldi/Stevens comparison but it's published by a semi-reliable source. (I think Amazon's reviews come from somewhere else though.) If you have problems footnoting it just put the URL in single brackets [1] and someone will help. Regards, PhilipR 23:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed it because I don't think that quote actually compares Sufjan's music to Guaraldi's music. The quote has to be taken as a whole to make any sense; even then, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense, at least not enough to warrant inclusion in the article. PuerExMachina 08:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, keep it out. Faithlessthewonderboy 02:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maple River

The song title "Maple River" almost certainly refers to the Maple River (which has several branches) in Emmet County, Michigan, where Sufjan grew up. There are four other Maple Rivers listed in Wikipedia, but this one makes the most sense.69.145.37.174 05:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Ok I've sorted that out and referred to the many states with Maple Rivers in them. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fifty States Project

I removed the sentence 'There have been other times Stevens has said he does not really plan to make an album for every state, specifically listing Texas as a state he will "probably never do."^[1]' due to the fact that the quote seems to be lifted from this article, in which Sufjan actually says that he is "definitely not going to do a record about Texas birds or Florida birds." Techpeace 19:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

the German Wikipedia [[2]] states in Article and Discussion pages that Sufjan stated in several interviews, that the "50 States" project was meant as a joke (no sources cited though).--83.77.183.229 (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of His First Name

I don't know how to properly write (in IPA technical terms) the pronunciation of Sufjan Stevens' first name but I do know its 'soof-yahn'. (See this article for proof.) Basically, I don't think the Wikipedia article has it right. 'Suf-jan' is not how you pronounce his name. So can someone who knows the IPA style correctly write the pronunciation of his name? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.212.8.44 (talk) 08:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, we know it's soof-yahn, and the IPA symbols are correct. The "j" in IPA is a "y" sound, as it is in the majority of European languages. Thanks for asking, though! -- Dhartung | Talk 09:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've corrected the IPA. It said [soof yahn] and that cannot be correct. I've looked at the "transcription" of the pronunciation at the website above. I haven't heard his name pronounced myself, but the present transcription seems more correct than the previous. Please correct if it is wrong. NisseSthlm 23:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casimir Pulaski Day

Why does the article say that Illinois' celebration of Casimir Pulaski Day is confusing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.85.81.39 (talk) 14:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• No longer does.Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation?

Quoting the Article (emphasis mine): "Casimir Pulaski Day" speaks of "All the glory that the Lord has made" in the midst of personal pain and loss, while also noting the limitations of personal faith, singing, "Tuesday night at the Bible study, we lift our hands and pray over your body but nothing ever happens."

That's some odd wording. Deciding what he is noting (that his faith is "limited") is speculation into this quote; who is to say that it isn't a statement of one time his "personal faith" failed him? Or that it's denouncing christianity altogether? Or that he's not making a theological statement on whether or not healing is possible?

Or that it's sarcasm? Or any other number of ridiculous things?

I vote we drop the (again) speculation.Lackinglatin 07:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that all such inferences should be removed unless reliable sources are provided. –Pomte 07:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing, as there has been no opposition against the proposed action. Lackinglatin 17:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Sufjan is also a creative writing major. Many of his songs you will notice are just stories through someone's eyes - not necessarily his. E.g. Wasps of the Palisades is through the eyes of a female. Therefore any attempts to read into Sufjan through his lyrics is conjecture. Jwigton 07:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1st paragraph

Starts off well but then tries to cram it all in . I propose to split in tw2 ... just before "His music has been likened to ..." . Will do now ... if you don't like it, well, come up with something better203.211.102.217 08:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Lead now has "beginning", "music" and "50 states" sections. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Faced?

"Two Faced John McCartney created "Zombies Walk!!", a mashup of "They Are Night Zombies!! They Are Neighbors!! They Have Come Back From The Dead!! Ahhhhh!" and Kanye West's "Jesus Walks"." - This quote is found under Allusions - is this correct or vandalism? Dh42 02:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's not very notable. CAN 03:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

You can hear it on this MySpace page, but I also suggest that unless Two Faced John McCartney rates a Wikipedia page the mash-up doesn't need to be included in the article. -MrFizyx 18:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'it's not so cold in texas' section.

that little section is ridiculous (is unsourcable, non-academic, and the entire premise of it is opinion) , so i'm getting rid of it. aeymxq 13:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "lyrically focused and instrumentally rich"

yeah that doesnt sound biased at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.182.76.37 (talk) 02:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illinois

according to itunes, the Illinois record is actually called Illinoise. But can someone change it? I dunno how —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.192.79 (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• Its not - see archive 1 for discussion. Illinois is the correct title.--Fresh 17:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Anyone interested about more images could see http://www.flickr.com/photos/tammylo/ right now. gren グレン 04:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of name

I think its worth providing a non-IPA pronunciation of Sufjan's name for the people who don't know how to read IPA. 128.255.134.97 (talk) 14:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation). faithless (^speak) 23:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realize that there was a link to a pronunciation guide. That resolves my issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.211.10.234 (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New template

What do people think? I know that single looks very lonely but i'm sure he'll do another one soon! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 01:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is cool. I hadn't realised he'd only released one single from all those albums! -- Naerii 01:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Illinoise

Why are all the Sufjan pages again infested with references to an album called "Illinoise"? SIGH! I've corrected all (I think) of the ones on the main page, but if anyone spots any others could they change it? Thanks x User:Guntrip 26 May '08

Check out the changes that User:E-Kartoffel made from 13:06, 23 May 2008 to 13:35, 23 May 2008 (about 40 changes). Or you can do a content search on Illinoise. I vote for a complete rollback of all of these changes. --EPadmirateur (talk) 15:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Just checking again: is it the consensus of editors here that the album is Illinois and that track 3 has the title "Come on Feel the Illinoise"? If so, it won't take long to revert the earlier edits. --EPadmirateur (talk) 03:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I assumed there was consensus on Illinois but now someone's changed it i agree with the change. If you see the front cover it has a very large Illinoise across it (that being the shortened form of it's full name Come On Feel The Illinoise). Bear in mind it is not like Michigan which has the state's unaltered name blazoned on the album. Personally i've never spoken with anyone about it as "Illinois". However asthmatic kitty [3] lists it as Illinois and pitchfork's review is of "Illinois". I lean towards Illinoise personally but more authoritative sources seem to favour Illinois Sillyfolkboy (talk) 10:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

While I'll agree the front cover causes confusion (and with merit), as you've said the Asmatic Kitty website refers to it as Illinois, as does the spine of the record. Besides, if the front cover is to be taken as a correct source, the title should be Sufjan Stevens invites you to: Come On Feel The Illinoise!, so just Illinoise isn't even a correct wrong answer! ;) x User:Guntrip 30 May '08 —Preceding comment was added at 13:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed then. I'll revert that last edit to the page as it appears there's general consensus on the matter. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)