Talk:Suez Canal

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Egypt Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Egypt on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the Project's importance scale.
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.
plan of the stonehenge site
Archaeology Portal
This article is part of WikiProject Archaeology, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to archaeology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
??? This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale.
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
This article is part of WikiProject Transport, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles related to Transport. For guidelines see the project page and Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ.
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.5
 This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
Map needed
 It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Egypt or the Middle East may be able to help!


Contents

[edit] STOCK ISSUE

[edit] Questions

>Invasive species originated from the Red Sea and introduced into the Mediterranean by the construction of the canal have become a major component of the Mediterranean ecosystem, and have serious impacts on the Mediterranean ecology, endangering many local and endemic Mediterranean species.- "I would believe the impact is probaly well beyond just the region of the Mediterranean. More than likely Gobal in scope?" Especially since what we have learned about "Greywater discharges." see also:[1] [[Pollution]

Raymond Dailey [2]

>

Didn't the egyptian govt (viveroy Pasha) hold 44% of the stock? So if GB bought it, they still didnt have control of the company? Ksenon 02:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


May be I am having a bad day, but I still couldn't tell who currently own the canal? Is it mentioned in the article?
Private corporation?

-G


Shouldn't the "C" in canal be capitalized in the title? It is in the first sentence. Tuf-Kat

Yes it should. I'll fix it. --mav

--

It would probably be a good idea for someone to note (and maybe write an article on?) the Constantinople Convention of 1888. This convention basically said that the Suez Canal couldn't be closed by anybody, and I remember reading that it precipitated one of the major causes of the 1956 Suez Crisis/War/Incident/Massively-Violent-Activity (just to cover all of the opinion bases...:-)). Even better if someone could find the text of it, and whether or not it's still in force (legally, if not practically).

Oh yeah. How much does passage through the Canal cost? -Penta 19:48, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Found the text, added it as an external link. -Itai 12:24, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm having the hardest time finding out whether the French company called Suez (NYSE: SZE) (See [3] for details) really is the present-day embodiment of the original Compagnie Universelle du canal maritime de Suez - Suez Canal Company. It claims ([4]) that it is, although not in so many words. Any thoughts? -Itai 12:24, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It probably is the present-day embodiment, but it would not have anything to do with the current management of the canal: as the whole issue about the Suez Crisis in 1956 was that Egypt nationalised the canal and now controls it. --mgream 22:35, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This might provide the tying specifics you want: an Adobe document "Reference Document 2006" on the Suez website. Go to the top of last page (p. 28), 5.1.5 "Significant events" (See [5] for details). --PamIAm 16:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

The canal has no locks because there is no sea level difference. The canal allows ships with up to 15 meters (50 feet) of draft to pass, and improvements are planned to increase this to 22 m (72 feet) by 2010 to allow supertanker passage. Presently supertankers can offload part of their load onto a canal-owned boat and reload at the other end of the canal. There is one shipping lane with several passing areas.

Would that be enough for a French or US aircraft carrier to use the canal?

  • That doesn't sound right....no locks? That can't be right. Is it? Kingturtle 03:48, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
There are no locks, numerous references will tell you this. --mgream 22:35, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • US aircraft carriers can already fit through the Suez Canal, and do so. The USS George Washington exited the canal on the Red Sea side this week. Cyrius 07:41, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Said?

The link to "Said" goes to a page that doesn't seem to be the right one.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 21:27, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

Please clarify:

This is a direct quote from the Encyclopaedia of the Orient:

13th century BCE: A canal is constructed between the delta of the Nile and the Red Sea. For the following centuries, the canal was only partially maintained.

8th century CE: The canal is no longer maintained, and soon becomes unnavigable.

1854: By a French initiative, the viceroy of Egypt, Said Pasha, decides for the project of building a canal that would connect the Mediterranean Sea to the Red Sea.

1858: La Compagnie Universelle du Canal Maritime de Suez is formed to construct the canal. The company, which was owned by both French and Egyptian interests, should both build the canal, and administer it for the following 99 years. After this time, the ownership would pass over to the Egyptian government.

1859 April 25: Constructions begin.

Why hasn't Wikipedia mentioned this? Anti-Egyptian (and I really dislike saying this, but... ) prejudice??? Please refer to Origins of chess and Great Pyramid of Giza: Labor for more information.

Wikipedia certainly cannot claim that the ancient Egyptians were incapable of such a engineering feat, given a monument as extraordinary as the Great Pyramid of Giza, constructed more than one thousand years prior to a mere canal!


[edit] Ancient "Suez Canal"

It's my understanding that the ancient "Suez Canal" connected the Nile with the Red Sea. The Persians on orders from Emperor Darius the conqueror built the Suez Canal giving access to the Persian navy to the Mediterranean.

logologist 14:33, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please don't feel embarrassed by the following. (I am fortunate to having had contact with some very bright and exceedingly experienced historians in my lifetime who informed me of the following. Yes, you may declare the above, and it is a very common mistake.)
Ancient manuscripts refer to the "Mediterranean Sea" as the "Red Sea." Exactly why this is so is uncertain. For some reason or another, ancient references to both seas in many instances carried the same name. Even the Gulf of Suez is referred to as the "Red Sea" in some instances! However, I'm not an historian, and my memory fails at recollecting precise references for you. Sorry.
It was Necho II (610 - 595 BC) who dug the canal from the Nile to the Gulf of Suez.
The use of the term "Red Sea" in the article, Suez Canal, is only to appease those who want to claim this technicality in the ancient documents discovered (from the 13th century BC) of the canal's origin. They prefer to state that some other canal was constructed. However, try as energetically as we may, we always fail at locating any evidence of any other canal which these ancient documents must be referring to. Nevertheless, they prefer to argue that such evidence may show up some time in the future. So, we publicly leave the term as it is, yes probably in error, but maybe not actually so. [Note that the original article text has been changed to reflect this.]
If you'd like a good map to reference, here is a really good one I have located on the internet, but it takes a few minutes to download. So be patient! [6] -- Roylee
The Egyptians wouldn't have needed to dig a canal to get to the Mediterranean Sea. All they needed to do was sail downstream. logologist 21:24, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Egyptians to Mediterranean Sea? Yes. West African Saharans to eastern "states?" No.
The West African Saharans were the major shipbuilders of the era, not the ancient Egyptians. But, both populations were African. Perhaps the initial motivation to dig a Suez canal from the Mediterranean Sea to the Gulf of Suez was of West African origin??? Perhaps the actual dig was a joint effort???
Perhaps the Phoenicians were West Saharan Africans??? According to Phoenicia: Phoenician Merchantry, Egyptian pharoah Necho II sent a Phoenician expedition out to circumnavigate Africa. Why would the Phoenicians oblige to an Egyptian pharoah? Maybe because Egypt dug the canal for them? Seems reasonable, but we'll never know. -- Roylee

Roylee (talk · contribs) has made a number of contentious edits into articles such as Mende language and Shipbuilding that have since been reverted. Someone more knowledgeable in this area may want to verify the information about the 1st Suez Canal. Cheers, BanyanTree 00:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Facts?

I'm rather surprised that there isn't a simple Facts section containing information such as length, width, depth of water, etc. Perhaps someone familiar with these values can put such a section together? -Ayeroxor 17:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Trivia sections are discouraged, but an infobox would be good. {{Infobox River}} maybe? Jake the Editor Man (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Panamax

The article says "The Panama Canal has a current draft of 12 metres as set out in the Panamax specifications." Aren't we talking about the Suez Canal here? Does the Suez meet the Panamax specifications? Clarkbhm 19:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind. Someone removed it. Clarkbhm 04:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] grammar clarification

The modern suez canal, paragraph 4, sentence 5. " . . . British troops had moved in to protect it while they newly settled on civil war torn Egypt in 1882." I'm not sure what is intended here, so I can't make a specific suggestion, but this sentence should be fixed. Actually, I think this whole section could use an edit. I found it to be one of the most confusing Wikipedia articles I've read. Again, however, I don't have the expertise on this topic to try tackling it myself, so this is just a suggestion.

[edit] Nile / Suez Canal article merge

I do not agree that the articles should be merged: both of the canals have distinct and detailed histories in themselves, and although some relationship exists between them, it is not sufficient to join them under a single banner. For example, this would be like saying that since the Sydney Harbour Bridge and Sydney Harbour Tunnel are both transits across the harbour, that they should be joined into a single article about Sydney Harbour crossing, which would not make sense - although it does make sense that each individual article describes something about its relationship to the other. It's also slightly annoying that the user who proposed this merge did so without providing any justification. I call upon the user to provide a justification, otherwise I suggest that the merge proposal be reverted within 7 days. mgream 08:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I have no feelings on the matter. My motivation was that there is no current link to Nile Canal, and someone who is not an expert on the subject might not find the information included in that article. --Grocer 20:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length

Are you sure the length of the canal is 163 miles? According to the Encyclopedia Britannica it's 101 miles (163 km ) [7]67.67.230.161 17:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

BBC claims that it is 192 km long: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5195068.stm . Can anyone explain this discrepancy? -Pgan002 03:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Environmental issues

 Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

Are there any environmental issues raised by the connection of the two different seas? -- Beland 22:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

From the page on the Mediterranean Sea:
The opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 created the first salt-water passage between the Mediterranean and Red seas. The Red Sea is higher than the Eastern Mediterranean, so the canal serves as a salt-water river that pours Red Sea water into the Mediterranean. The Bitter Lakes, which are hypersaline natural lakes that form part of the canal, blocked the migration of Red Sea species into the Mediterranean for many decades, but as the salinity of the lakes gradually equalized with that of the Red Sea, the barrier to migration was removed, and plants and animals from the Red Sea have begun to colonize the eastern Mediterranean. The Red Sea is generally saltier and more nutrient-poor than the Atlantic, so the Red Sea species have advantages over Atlantic species in the salty and nutrient-poor Eastern Mediterranean. The construction of the Aswan High Dam across the Nile River in the 1960s reduced the inflow of freshwater and nutrient-rich silt from the Nile into the eastern Mediterranean, which has made conditions there even more like the Red Sea. This species exchange is known as the Lessepsian Migration, after Ferdinand de Lesseps, the engineer who oversaw the canal's construction.
--Yuje 12:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion: Take sea-level difference out

The texts says that the Suez Canals has no locks because there are no hills to climb (that's the right argumentation) and because there is no sea-level difference (wrong reasoning!). Since when is the sea-level at the other side of a continent, island, etc. lower or higher? So the Panama Canal has locks because there is a sea-level difference? Of course not, the Atlantic Ocean is not lower or higher than the Pacific Ocean, or vice versa. The same is valid for the Suez Canal the Red Sea can't be lower or higher than the Mediterraenean Sea. Water-level difference is only possible in inland waters. Janno 15:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Water-level difference is only possible in inland waters. Not true -- this is from the Wikipedia article on sea level: Mean sea level does not remain constant over the surface of the entire earth. For instance, mean sea level at the Pacific end of the Panama Canal stands 20 cm higher than at the Atlantic end. unfutz 05:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You can theoretically have different seal levels at different ends of the canal, if the high tides are at different times. This is precisely what happens in the English Channel. High tides arriving from the west are at different times to those arriving via the North Sea, resulting in a tidal race.

The Mediterranean has virtually no tides, it is “nearly” a land-locked lake, the only outlet is the straits of Gibraltar and they are relatively narrow.
The Red Sea is long and thin, and so probably has minimal tides.

Can anybody comment on how big the tides are at either end, and whether there is a flow? It may be so low that it is overwhelmed by the currents caused by passing ships. TiffaF 16:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scale of cost overruns

The article states:

the final cost was more than double the original estimate.

On the other hand Cost overrun states:

Spectacular examples of cost overrun are the Suez Canal with 1,900 percent.

So what were cost overruns - x2 or x20 ? This is pretty big difference. Taw 10:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] impossible facts

deleted: "Egyptians were also forced to work on the canal, 125,000 [citation needed] of whom perished due to malnutrition, fatigue and disease, especially cholera."

if 30,000 egyptians were forced to work on the canal, it's impossible that 125,000 died; in any case a figure this high seems extremely unlikely. Benwing 05:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

See #120000 died and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5195068.stm -Pgan002 03:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 120000 died

BBC claims that 120000 people died in constructing the canal - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5195068.stm -Pgan002 03:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just come upon the so-called Classic Encyclopedia, which is the out-of-copyright 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, at [8]. This says that one ancient source claims that 120,000 Egyptians died during construction of the ancient canal, that is, not the modern one. If this is correct, the BBC must have been guilty of a bit of very slapdash journalism. I doubt if so many men also died in the 19th century construction - it seems a huge number, and could hardly have been the same number that the ancient source claims.
The quote is "...The channel of this canal is still traceable in parts of the Wadi Tumilat, and its direction was frequently followed by the engineers of the freshwater canal. Seti's canal appears to have fallen into decay or to have been too small for later requirements, for Pharaoh Necho (609 B.C.) began to build another canal; possibly his chief object was to deepen the channel between the Heroopolite Gulf and the Red Sea, then probably silting up. Necho's canal was not completed - according to Herodotus 120,000 men perished in the undertaking. Darius (520 B.C.) continued the work of Necho...."
By the way, from this article and the discussion, I found the route of the ancient canal rather confusing, but the 1911 text says that the Gulf of Suez extended north to the Bitter Lakes in those times, and the canal then went east to west to join the Nile delta. Is this correct? Then the present fresh water canal followed this Wadi Tumilat ancient route, more or less, bringing water for the modern construction. Patche99z 10:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
the british have acted toward the french like dicks from the very beginning of this affair until the end in 1956 with the crisis where they suddenly left the battlefield without warning the french nor the israeli. the british were jealous of this french achievement. a must see great documentary on this matter -not the usual BBC propaganda docs claiming the english invented everything!- is "Durchbruch bei Suez" by Axel Engstfeld (2006), international title is something like "the suez canal". Lesseps answered the british using the corvée as an excuse, that the egyptian workers were paid better than in egypt and the british were using their own 8-years old children like slaves in leeds!! (de lesseps biograph) Paris By Night 16:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

Map of Suez Canal area is too busy. Reader should have immediate focus at canal. Details should be reserved for article on Egypt. See discussion at Image talk:Egypt-region-map-cities.gif. algocu 20:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Environmental impact - fresh water

I seem to recall hearing that the fresh water canal running west to east from the Nile to the Suez Canal was constructed at the same time as the Suez Canal to provide water for the workers, and that the present fresh water canal running parallel to the Suez Canal (on its west side) was a part of that construction. These fresh water canals have had a major (positive) impact on the area, allowing people to live and farm along the Suez Canal, and providing water for the towns of Suez, Ismailia and perhaps Port Said. So the effect of the Canal is much wider than the passage of shipping and its commercial effects. Can a paragraph about this be included? I could write one, much as I have here, but this is from my memory of many years ago, and I lack references or hard facts, so I would rather leave it to someone who really knows the area. What do people think? Patche99z 12:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repair by Necho, Darius I and Ptolemy

As I type this, the section headed 'Repair by Necho, Darius I and Ptolemy' begins:

It later fell into disrepair, and according to the Histories of the Greek historian Herodotus, about 600 BC, Necho II undertook re-excavation but did not complete it. The canal was finally completed by Darius I of Persia,

This is immediately after a statement indicating that the evidence for an ancient canal from the Med to the Red is poor. Obviously if the canal was probably not built in the first place, it can't later fall into disrepair!

The Darius I article seems to indicate that the canal he built was from Suez to the Nile, which is not really the path of the Suez Canal.

I am not familiar enough with history to make the appropriate corrections but this article needs to be improved so that it makes sense as a single narrative.


60.241.103.178 00:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

I've dabbed the page as contradictory because of two contradictions made of the rest of the article in the environmental impacts section, namely that the Red Sea and Mediterranean have different sea levels and the percentage of world shipping passing through the canal mgekelly 03:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I have sorted out the levels bit. The contradiction in the traffic is only 0.5% - does anyone care? Patche99z 16:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] who make the suez canal

the suez canal is made by ferdinand de lesseps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.75.88.133 (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] repair by Napolean

It says that Napolean considered repairing the canal, but if this is the case, why would a difference in sea level scuttle the effort, as the canal would already exist. Shouldn't this read, Napolean considers _building_ a canal from the Red to Med? And not rebuilding/repairing the Nile-Red canal? 132.205.44.5 (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] split ancient and modern

Image:Split-arrows.svg
  It has been suggested that this page be split into multiple pages accessible from a disambiguation page. (Discuss)


The ancient Suez canal should be in a separate article, they are not geographically close to each other, and run over vastly different routes. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 03:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] images / diagrams / photos of the ancient canal?

Ancient canal imagery? 132.205.44.5 (talk) 03:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

 It is requested that a diagram or diagrams be included in this article to improve its quality.
For more information, refer to discussion on this page and/or the listing at Wikipedia:Requested images.
It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

Wikipedians in Egypt may be able to help!
The Free Image Search Tool (FIST) may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.