Talk:Subliminal message

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Subliminal message article.
Article policies
Society Portal
This article is part of WikiProject Media, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to media. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
WikiProject on Psychology
Portal		 This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, which collaborates on Psychology and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.

Contents

[edit] Supraliminal

Can someone please explain the difference between subliminal and supraliminal. I understand that Supraliminal audios are messages played above the normal hearing frequencies. Are these messages more effective than subliminal sounds ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.98.9 (talk) 14:10, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misc.

There was use of this in Fight Club where Brad Pitt's character inserted frames in family films.

Shouldn't someone add in the Judas Priest case that had the "Do It" thing? It was pretty big if I remember right...

This page has atrocious spelling. Someone other than me should fix it.

Some info on SCWL Subliminal Audio should be mentioned

---

How can it possibly say sumbliminal messages rarely happen? I can spot them everyday on the news and on commercials. Theres a show called the biggest loser, about losing weight. It is very subliminal, sending messages of if your fat your a loser, and being thin is being normal.

boborosso: Big problem in article dismissal of effectiveness of subliminal messages: the assumption that those messages are just meant to increase sales. Indeed the risk of somebody discovering the message is too great, but only for advertisement purpose. If the purpose goes beyond marketing, towards form of mass control or experimentation, the point the author made is no longer valid.

"er been used on a mass audience." This sentence is awkward, particularlly the use of the word ever. Substituting "is often" for "has ever" might make more sense, sincthere are examples of the technique being used on mass audiences later in the article. 67.84.177.24 01:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)king anon

  • "there is little evidence that the technique has ever been used on a mass audience (other than its occasional use by artists who use it to make an artistic statement)." Could this be explained a little further please? If not in the article, then at least to me. Escheffel 01:24, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Modemac:

I am disappointed that you have edited out an attempt to broaden the text so that incorporates more facts about subliminal technology. I wonder if you know whereof you speak? I will amend the text more carefully to include references to the latest research and literature. Be careful how you use the term pseudo-science. Science itself is not above criticism and it certainly doesn't include all knowledge.

King brosby

Modemac:

My comments are based on having used hemisphonic tapes and cd's for years and found them extremely impressive eg for improving memory. In many of the tapes and CDs I have used the messages are subliminal concealed behind music. I understand that the same source that I use for my tapes cds is/was used by the US defense department for training I think it was airmen to recognise targets. I admit that there are many poor or near useless tapes and cds on the market; those are not the ones I use

King brosby

I'm suspicious of the changes made by 66.81.137.63 to this article. While it appears to be well-written, he claims that subliminal message is real because "federally funded" research says so. That sounds like the same type of reasoning used by many proponents of fringe science and pseudoscience -- site an obscure "study" by someone we've never heard of, in order to prove that their scientific methods are valid. I also question the statement that "uninformed people" don't know about subliminal messages. A look at the user contributions for 66.81.137.63 says that the only contributions made by this person are to this one article. Unless there is better evidence cited for the existence of subliminal message, I'm going to revert it. Agree or disagree? --Modemac 21:02, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

  • Background music can have a subliminal effect on unknowing customers, influencing the speed at which they shop, their willingness to buy and the experience they take out of the store. Display & Design Ideas, February, 2004
  • Subliminal advertising RDS Business & Industry, September, 2003
  • Psychophysics: Is subliminal learning really passive? Nature. 2003 Mar 6;422(6927):36.
  • "...we endeavor to acquaint readers of the SKEPTICAL INQUIRER with the varied (and thriving) use of subliminally presented stimuli in cognitive and social psychological research. Specifically, we review evidence suggesting that cognition can occur without conscious awareness, and that this unconscious cognition can be affected by subliminal stimuli, thereby influencing individuals' judgments, attitudes, and even their behavior. Indeed, this recent evidence suggesting that subliminal stimuli can influence behavior gives us pause in contemplating the possible effectiveness of subliminal persuasion in advertising... Can subliminally presented stimuli influence behavior? Recent investigations suggest that the answer may be yes...we note that several of the critical requirements for subliminal advertising have been met through scientific research. In particular, as we have detailed, subliminally presented stimuli can influence high-level cognitive processes, and, in some cases, can even influence behavior...we offer no conclusions regarding the plausibility or effectiveness of subliminal advertising; we only suggest that it may, in fact, be possible, and acquaint readers with the empirical research upon which we base that suggestion." - Skeptical Inquirer, Sept-Oct, 1999
  • Disclosure of contextually hidden sexual images embedded in an advertisement, Psychol Rep. 1997 Aug;81(1):333-4.
  • Subliminal manipulation of smoking, J Environ Pathol Toxicol Oncol. 1996;15(2-4):173-6.

Actually there is quite a bit of doubt in this. I don't know of too many advertising and promotional professionals who think that barely conscious messages are useful.

Strictly speaking subliminal techniques are illegal in some countries and broadcasting networks, but there is no doubt that advertising and promotion professionals know the value of a subtle message that may pass almost unnoticed by the conscious mind (and may be repeated often).

I think some clarification of the "validity" section of the revised article is in order. At one point it says "There is no doubt that subliminal messages can be perceived and that the technology of subliminal learning or influencing exists". Then in the next paragraph it says " The current consensus among marketing professionals is that subliminal advertising is ineffective". Is the author claiming that subliminal messages can be perceived and used for learning and influencing people but are ineffective when applied to advertising? Or are you saying that even though it can be perceived, it is of no value for persuasive or learning purposes? mydogategodshat 04:01, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This article would be the perfect place to make a point. Insert a message somewhere, like spread out Wikipedia over the introduction to the words to the article, then point it out to the reader. Sword 14:55, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Modemac, you wrote:"In the everyday world, it has often been suggested (without evidence) that subliminal techniques are used in advertising and for propaganda purposes..." I disagree with this statement. I can provide evidence that subliminal techniques have been used in advertising. I think you mean to say that there is no evidence that they are useful techniques. Would you be so kind as to clarify this statement? Thomas Veil 10:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the article has a biased point of view. The effectiveness and current usage of subliminal messaging in advertising is disputed, but the article seems to suggest that it is not disputed by reputable sources, which is not the case. Furthermore, the use of subliminal advertising in print media is not questionable, as there are many examples of messages and images (mostly relating to sex) hidden within print ads.

[edit] Automatic Tasks

Driving a car is muscular memory / a learnt behavior. Like riding a bicycle, not something that you store in your head. Which is why it also take practice in making your muscles do the correct cooridinated activities before you get it down-pat.
~ender 2005-04-16 21:00:MST

[edit] Popcorn and coca cola sales rumor

The Tech TV series- "Conspiracies" had an episode devoted to showing some examples of subliminal messaging in advertisments. They showed the same example, of the "buy popcorn-drink coke" myth- and told it to be true. I would think, comming from such a source, that they would check there facts before airing the tape to the public! if any one has informtion regarding this, please add on to the discusion-

--Dhpc_Raptor 02:25, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] corporate logos

Image:FedEx Logo.svg

If you want to see what *may* be a subliminal message in a corporate logo, look at the FedEx logo. Look between the 'Ex'. There is a right arrow between the lower bracket of the 'E' and the 'x'. I'm not exactly sure if it qualifies as subliminal or not. Very few people notice it unless they're told about it.

snowpass

[edit] Evidence for Subliminal Learning

Aaron Seitz (aseitz@bu.edu)

I would like to add to this discussion in order to point out that there is increasing evidence for subliminal learning and that it is a valid technique (see citations below). The basic result of this research is that subliminal stimuli that occur at the same time as behaviorally relevant events can be learned. In addition, subliminal learning procedures can alter perceptions and in fact lead to misperceptions (see citation #3). While it is unclear how these methodologies would generalize to advertising the fact of subliminal learning occurs cannot be denied.

some citations:

  • 1). Watanabe et al., "Perceptual learning without perception", Nature 2001
  • 2). Seitz and Watanabe., "Is subliminal learning really passive?", Nature 2003
  • 3). Seitz et al., "Seeing what is not there shows the cost of perceptual learning", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2005
  • 4). Seitz and Watanabe., "A unified model for perceptual learning" Trends in Cognitive Science, 2005

[edit] Subliminal Messages in Advertising

I see no citations whatsoever for the following string of claims:

The most common ways of making one of these messages are playing a string of images each lasting 1/3000th of a second, words scrolling across a screen just fast enough so the viewer can only pick out one at a time, and using pictures to provoke the primal instincts in the viewer. Primal instincts are those which promote reproduction and survival. Words used to invoke these instincts include: SEX, FUCK, KILL, and DIE.

If none can be provided, I suggest the para be deleted. Anon.

I agree. There is nothing common about this method at all. mydogategodshat 06:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Somebody who uses sublimianl messages can't have a good idea. Well, also, I will tell you something that happened here in Argentina. There was a an advertisment which said: nanana, el golpecito(the blow). Well, this was all planned. While there was more traffic, they cut the traffic light, in order to have chaos in traffic. Also, while this happened, in the radio all that appeared was this advertisment. This "melted" your brain, the stress actually. It was ALL planned so people actually accepted the military blow that was going to happen in Argentina. You would see people who always hated the military forces saying: Well, I guess that with the military forces tehre will be less chaos". All was planned so that you supported the military blow.

I'm going to delete the reference to 1/3000 of a second, since film is usually somewhere around 24 frames/second, so the fastest that an image could be flashed is 1/24 sec.
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 18:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Young Ones

I'm not sure whether this really fits. So I shall ask. But in The Young Ones (TV series), there were "flash frames" of things completely irrelevant to the plot, which were (presumably!) a reference to the idea of subliminal messages. I still remember the jumping frog. They're mentioned in the Young Ones article: would it make sense to include a mention here, too?

http://www.michael.phatcatz.net/awtv/Comedy/YoungOnes/faq2/flashframes.html for a partial list of them.

Telsa 21:20, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to mention that so-called subliminal messages have been flashed across the screen of several shows, but qualify more as in-jokes; the fact that they were obvious to the viewer, or meant to be discovered, means that they are not truly subliminal.
I recall some images of this sort were included in Fight Club as well? chewyrunt

[edit] i heard a subliminal

Once on a Bratz commercial, I thought I heard "Shut up and buy Bratz" in the back ground.

If you consciously heard it, it's not really subliminal.Indium 02:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Mind control is all thats there and all thats seen and taken in at one moment

[edit] This article is remarkably ignorant

I'd love to see whoever wrote this article tell me what basis he has for his comments, because if he had read any of the books mentioned in the article he would know he is completely wrong.

If you don't believe subliminal advertising exists, you ought to at least investigate it before making totally baseless claims and pretending to be some sort of authority. A decent start would be visiting this website www.subliminalsex.com (it is work safe). I invite anyone who denies subliminal advertising exists to explain the examples given on that site.

The only example I could find on the website was extremely spurious. If you want to see something you'll find it. It's like looking for codes in the Bible. Besides, a site trying to sell you a book is hardly a neutral source of information. I'm not ruling out the possibility of subliminal advertising, but that site is hardly proof. — TheJames 00:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Has anybody had a look at the User User:TheJames's Userpage lately? I'm pretty new around here so I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I just thought some of the language used might be deemed unsuitable for a public encyclopedia site?

Chrissyboi 20:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

In general, Wikipedia is not censored. Λυδαcιτγ 02:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up there Audacity. I just wasn't too sure. Personally I found it somewhat amusing, but recognise that others could find it offensive and was unsure what the true position was on it. Not censored its fine by me though, it brings out originality, no matter how profance or vulgar some may perceive that to be.

Chrissyboi 15:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The author of this article writes that there is no way to prove that when certain songs are played backwards, you hear hidden messages. Me and a friend proved this easily, we opened up Windows Sound Recorded, and simply recored ourselves singing the part of the song ("Another One Bites The Dust") where the message would be hidden. We both did this multiple times, and sung the lines perfectly, and even without the music playing in the background. When we played these clips backwards, you could perfectly hear the hidden message (It's fun to smoke marijuana). Try this, it works. ---Jeff

Were you expecting to hear that? Bubba73 (talk), 23:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Right, that proves that the message is coincidental, and is only a coincidence due to the lyrics. However, WP:OR dictates that we must find a documented source for this if we are to add it to the article. Which sentence are you referring to that says "there is no way to prove that when certain songs are played backwards, you hear hidden messages"?
You also might be interested in Backmasking and List of backmasked messages. As a side note, there is no "author" of this article: No one owns a Wikipedia article. Λυδαcιτγ 01:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cites Needed

Hello. I've thrown in a few 'citeneeded' tags, but this article would benefit from more cites in general. There are a collection of references at the bottom - perhaps some of these provide support to the claims of the article; if so, it would be good to tie them in to the specific statements. In general, whereever there's a statement along the lines of "a study has shown..." I would like to see a reference to which study has shown it. Other than that, congratulations on an article that's coming along nicely. Jamse 09:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The links can do harm

As a 13 year old, there would be no harm. But somebody who just presses a link which takes to a page in which when you press a button the mad-red eyes of pikachu(pokemon) appear. This cause the convulsion of kids in Japan. People underage would not know the term of "convulse", thus pressing the button and showing that image. This would actually be something bad, because convulsing can cause death. You can bump too hard your head, you can sophocate with your toung. So I think some links there should be verified to be acceptable. The link with the name "Optical Illusions and Visual Paradoxes" has optical illusions, which I don't think are bad. But there are the "Pikachu eyes" and something called "hypnozizing eyes"(or something like that). Which as I said can be considered harming to kids which are under-age.


I agree completely. For this same rreason, we need to remove all wikipedia articles that contain educational pictures of naked females, as young 13 year old boys can see then, hyper-venilate, pass out, land facedown, vomit for unrelated reasons, and drown. That totally happened in China. We must also remove all wikipedia articles that are exiting. Under-age kids have sat on the edge of their seats while reading these articles, fallen over, hit their head on the desk corner, and died of blunt force trama. This totally happened dude, I like, swear. I'm totally not making this up becuase I'm a rabble-rouser who stirrs up crap because I have nothing better to do.

Totally. Lettuceclock 09:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm is not helpful... 67.184.240.125 07:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subliminal re-programming therapy

I have added a link to the Wikipedia page featuring the author Dean Koontz because at least one of his novels deals with subliminal messages and subconscious programming. The one I have read is False Memory and I strongly recommend this book to anyone who is considering using subliminal therapy as a solution to problems they may have. This book might be fiction but it could make one think twice about using subliminal programming as a tool to helping them.

I have recently considered purchasing a therapy CD from Innergear but the book, which I have read from Dean Koontz has made me ask a few serious questions as to whether this is a good idea. Do I really trust the people selling me this CD? If subliminal re-programming really does work (and there isn't a lot of evidence to say it doesn't), do I really want a stranger implanting ideas in places of my mind where my conscious awareness cannot reach and is unaware of? What would be the implications of this and could the consequences be reversed?

Stay safe is my opinion. Either don't touch this stuff or if you really can't resist this kind of therapy make sure you seek the subliminal material from a reputable professional who is well-known in your local community (like a Psychologist who is known to your GP).

(a lurker:) I agree, the mind might be hosting a soul or not, but it sure filters all your experiences and memory. Would you give complete access to your own PC to a stranger? Letting somebody interfere with your mind is quite delicate. I'd take witnesses with me and try not to have subliminal stimuli around (having the doctor come to your place) Or avoid the technique altogether.

[edit] Subliminal messages effect explained by priming.

Priming is a subset of non-declarative(unconsious) memory.

An example would be asking people to count the vowels in each word, in a large list of words(ie truck, further, procedure ...).

Some time later (~1hour) you can ask subjects to complete a word starting with eg "pro___" and despite not (usually) being consiously aware of having recently seen the word they will usually state the word seen before.

The subjects are exposed to a lot of words over a short period of time and cannot remember them all.

The subject has not consiously remembered the fact that they have seen word, (like they would not for example be consiously aware of seeing one frame of a can of cola in a movie) but nevertheless an effect is triggered on consious choice later on (completeing a word root or choosing what drink to buy..).

What do people think? Is it worth a mention as a possible mechanism for subliminal messages?


Sure, if you can find another source that links the two. Icewolf34 17:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I just completed a cognitive psychology course at a college summer session, so I am by no means an expert on this, but I was given to understand that priming was a completely different effect (and very well accepted as real) from subliminal messaging. Priming is one of the 2 types of implicit ('subconcious') long term memory, the other being procedural memory (how to tie shoes, ride a bike, etc). One of the many differences is that the subject im priming can be reminded of having seen the word, and did at one time fully and conciously percieve it. Subliminal messaging would (if it actually worked) be more like someone quickly having garbage flashed on a screen, and getting up to throw out a candy wrapper. puppies_fly 23:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Effectiveness"

IMHO the "news" that subliminal messages may be influential should be deleted. (Delete the link.) It's not scientific because it does not take observer bias into account. (You need to delete the link.) The test should have been repeated with two brands of ice tea, (Wikipedia is such a wonderful place; it would be much nicer if you deleted the link.) or with two brands of mineral water. (You've never done anything better before; you will feel so warm and fuzzy inside!) Besides, the sample size is a little low, (You could use some typing practice today. How long has it been since you've put your typing to good use? Edit the article now.) and it hasn't been reproduced by anyone else. (You have an uncontrollable urge to remove the false news.) (Source: The Straight Dope by Cecil Adams, via GCFL) --KJ 13:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

You're probably right. It hasn't been replicated by others. It uses a small sample. I simply put in an external link to the article. Someone else wrote a paragraph about it. Bubba73 (talk), 14:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
OK, I removed the paragraph. --Kjoonlee 12:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes... yessssss... I want to delete the link... I NEED to delete the link...yes...and drink.... deliciouse, Ice cold Cocoa Cola.... I love Big Brother...Lettuceclock 09:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there anywhere that I can get more information about this study? Has anyone found any flaws in its methodology? You mention observer bias - was the study not properly blinded? CronoDAS 22:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

From the description in the media, it wasn't a valid scientific experiment because there was more than one controlled variable, if my memory is correct. The link(s) can be found by browsing the history of the article. --Kjoonlee 23:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs an Example.

This article really needs an example of a subliminal message.... Perhaps we should make it want people to visit us more.... Just kidding. -sabrinaneo

[edit] 10 mins to downtown

The paragraph on "10 mins to downtown" in the Instances section was added by an IP that had also vandalized the page the same day. Searches on IMDB and Google doesn't come up with anything. So I don't know if this is a real listing or if it's just a more subtle form of vandalism. I also haven't been able to find anything on the supposed filmmaker, Stan Leegal Feenstra-Roche, whose name was added but later reverted. Does anyone else know about this documentary or its maker? If not, perhaps that paragraph should be removed from the article. -- DImfeld 06:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the paragraph here until someone can come up witha source for it. Otherwise, it doesn't appear to meet the verifiability requirement. The paragraph follows below. -- DImfeld 02:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently in Canada, the underground documentary "10 mins to downtown" (found basely in Winnipeg, Manitoba) has been proven to have audio examples of "get rid of the gun registry" below audible senses. As well, images of an American Flag wrapped around a gun are flashed every 77 seconds during pause or hidden in various objects.

[edit] Sublymonal?

I saw a subliminal commercial yesterday about a sumo wrestler. It was supposed to be part of the subLYMONal Sprite campaign thing and I did what it said for me to do...I went to the sublymonal website. Sprite decided to make lemon-lime lymon for no reason whatsoever. The one I saw was on Sunday, June 11 at around 10:40-11 p.m. yesterday on UPN 9. The website for the Sprite sublymonal thing is this [1]

I saw that commercial too--Taida 19:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I saw the ads as well — they're available to watch on YouTube.
I think it's somewhat relavant for this subject. Has any other national advertising campaign ever openly referred to using subliminal messages? Maybe it's merely a satirical, post-modern campaign, but it does seem a bit daring for a company (Coca-Cola, no less!) to suggest that they are indeed putting hidden messages in their advertisments. —Down10 T / C 18:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that they are straight up saying it is submliminal advertiseing sort of rules out that possibility there, chief. I sugguest you read up on what subliminal advertiseing actually is; a bunch of wierd, random images involving the colors yellow and green does not a subliminal advertisement make. Lettuceclock 09:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Read my comment again. I'm talking about the reference in the commercials to subliminal advertising, not the actual deployment of it. I mean, we can all see the imagery; it's obviously not a real subliminal ad. I know it's a joke, I was just curious if any other commercials alluded to the practice before. —Down10 TACO 11:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Furor vs. Furore

Regarding the recent spelling corrections, furor is the American spelling and furore is the British spelling. -- DImfeld 01:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, If you look at the article on Color, the title itself is spelled with an American spelling. However, I beleive whoever writes it should be able to make the decision, as long as you don't have say, "Furor" and "Colour" in the same article. People will understand.--Daniel Berwick 04:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coca Cola

As an example, there is a poster advertisement of Coca Cola. It shows a bottle of coke surrounded by ice-cubes. In one ice-cube, you can see a woman appearing to be performing fellatio on a phallic image.

Cool! Do you have a source for this? Λυδαcιτγ 16:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
how about here: http://www.cokecans.com/article/32-CocaCola-recalled-an-advertising-poster-due-to-a-risqu%E9-image-hidden-within-it
Excellent. I have asked the author for permission to use the modified poster. If he does not give permission, I should still be able to use the small image. Either way, I will add the info in soon. Thanks! Λυδαcιτγ 22:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

That isn't subliminal advertisement. It's an example of an asshole of an artist playing a prank. I sugguest you read the www.snopes.com article about it.

Not only that, but that would NOT be a subliminal advertisement. The point isn't to show an image so small that only a very small percentage of viewers can spot it. The point is to do an image the EVERYONE can see, but only so quickly that their conciounce mind does not have time to ponder it. Not only that, but it wouldn't be effective; people don't see a blowjob on a coke ad and go "HOLY CRAP I WANT A COKE!!!!". All the documented cases of sybliminal advertisement (I.E the Coke in the Theature ones) did NOT force the consumer to buy a drink or even convince them to. All it did is put Coke in their mind; it had the same effect as a regular advertisement, only no one was going "Huh. Why am I being forced to watch advertisements in the middle of a darned movie I already payed money to see?!?!" 04:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

True, and that's why I put the pic & info in Hidden message instead of Subliminal message. Λυδαcιτγ 21:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mechanisms?

I reverted the deletion of the mechanisms section. Wikipedia is not a rumor mill per se, but can be one if necessary; witness 9/11 conspiracy theories. In this case, the mechanisms are important to explain the importance of the purported messages – how they get into our minds. Λυδαcιτγ 03:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

No, there's a difference between rumour mongering and documenting what's happening. --Kjoonlee 04:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
And what is the importance of the purpoted messages? Do they get into our minds? The very site you linked as references seems to say it's unimportant and ineffective.
Not fit for a "Mechanism" section. --Kjoonlee 04:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest improving the section, rather than deleting it. I also remind you that if there is a widespread belief in something, we should document the belief, irregardless of POV claims regarding its veracity. Religioustolerance.org is similar to us in this, and they chose to include the belief in the subliminal mechanism of the backmasked messages because of its popularity with Christian fundamentalists.
I don't know if you're interested in the controversy over backmasking, but there is a fairly large debate over the existence of backmasked messages. If there is no mechanism by which these messages reach the brain, they would be unimportant. So the mechanism must be of large importance.
I won't revert again per WP:POINT. Please consider my objections. Λυδαcιτγ 05:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
If you want to document it, there's already a section called "Allegations."
I don't get your reasoning on its importance. It looks like non sequitur to me. --Kjoonlee 05:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The mechanisms would not fit into the Allegations section, which deals with purported messages. They are relevant to any subliminal message, real or not, since they explain the effect of the message. However, some information on mechanisms is already in the "Effectiveness" section, so I moved it there. Λυδαcιτγ 16:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The mechanisms seem to be alleged "mechanisms" to me. --Kjoonlee 17:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV check

Hi, the current article seems to chiefly document what the proponents of the theory say, at a cursory glance, although the references used include what the critics have to say about it.

I propose this article be checked to prevent/rescue any NPOV bits. --Kjoonlee 17:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with Kjoon. According to Snopes.com, "...the Federal Communications Commission banned 'subliminal advertising from radio and television airwaves in 1974 [not 1957], despite that fact that no studies have ever shown it to be effective, and even though its alleged efficacy was based on a fraud."
Additionally, Snopes.com wrote that "when he was challenged to repeat the test by the president of the Psychological Corporation, Dr. Henry Link, Vicary's duplication of his original experiment produced no significant increase in popcorn or Coca-Cola sales. Eventually Vicary confessed that he had falsified the data from his first experiments..."
Foxjwill 19:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote a lot of it. It seems NPOV to me now. Λυδαcιτγ 04:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow! Good job! I was very surprised to see such a large number of edits, and I was pleasantly surprised by the results.  :) --Kjoonlee 06:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fight Club

BornHJ, why did you remove my contribution to the "Subliminal advertisements in fiction" part of whatever? I think it's a perfect example, and goes there just as well as any other example given. Untill someone can offer a reason it shouldn't be there, I'm putting it back.

That's not subliminal; you can see it. Λυδαcιτγ 04:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say "Real Subliminal Messages slipped into Fiction" there, Einstein. It say's "Fictional references". By your logic, ever single example given should be removed. I'm reinstating it unless anyone can give a good reason. Also, I'm thinking there should be a third catagory for references simply used as a plot-point, but the plot doesn't revolve around persuading persay; it seems somewhat faulty to have "Subliminal Jokes in Humor" and "Subliminal Messages used in Persuasion Only". If anyone can think of some good examples of it, I think that way would be better.

It's not a real subliminal message or a fictional subliminal message. There's nothing subliminal about it - you can see the picture. Additionally, you need a citation. Λυδαcιτγ 01:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you can't. I wasn't aware it was there, nor where any of my friends, untill we watched the commentary and someone (I believe it was Edward Norton) said "And theres the first penis". Not to mention you are utterly stupid if you believe Tyler Durdan going on for 2 minutes about how movies splice in pictures of penises to scare children is not a "refference" to subliminal advertisements; that's the exact definition of what they are refferencing too. And considering you don't look 'utterly stupid', so I am guessing you've either never seen the movie or don't remember it to well. By your standards, almost EVERY SINGLE ONE of the examples given should be removed. And by the way, how would I go about using the DVD commentary as a source? I searched online for stills or a script of the commentary, but it looks like the commentary itself is the only thing I can use to prove it. And I ASSUME you arn't saying I need a cite the Bradd Pitt discussing the subliminal ads in movies, as that part is quite obviouse to anyone who watches the movie. Lettuceclock 13:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

All right, put it back in then. Here's a reference for the subliminal penises. Λυδαcιτγ 16:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verification needed

“ The term subliminal message was popularized in 1917, before the World War I draft in America. However, the term at the time referred to messages that were noticeable if looked for, but were designed to be noticed only by the subconscious. ”

Removed from the History section - I couldn't find any sources for this info. Λυδαcιτγ 17:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trimuph of the subliminal will

It is said nazi german propaganda movies about jews often features hidden single frames (that 1/24 second) of running packs of rats. Why is that not discussed in this article? 195.70.32.136 12:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.
And remember to include a source. Λυδαcιτγ 00:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
My memory on this isn't completely clear, but I thought that the footage would run throughout the entire segment while the narrator talked about Jews, in a suggestive but not subliminal manner. Of course, if I'm wrong please correct me. - DImfeld 04:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Rise of a New Wave of Subliminal Messaging

Is it just me or has anyone noticed there have been alot of "blips" and glitches lately on Television? I mean they look like glitches but I can help but notices these things have been occuring with much frequency as of late.--Bushido Hacks 06:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Guess what? i'm doing a project on that!!

[edit] Coke and Corn???

I was wondering how would they flash the messages for 1/3000 of a second if movies are projected at 24 frames per second, which 1/24 of a second for every fram. Or did they use an external devise instead of inserting it into the film.

I found a reference to this claim here which may be of interest to those parties seeking more information concerning this claim, of a third of a millisecond. As can be seen from this article, the author of the study apparently fabricated his claims, and it may also be presumed that the third of a millisecond claim was also fabricated. I have not altered the original wikipedia article to reflect this information but shall leave it for the originator of the claims to read this article and do their own diligence. Chrissyboi 02:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the reference. It's impossible because film does not run at 3000 frames/sec.
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 18:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the messages weren't part of the film itself, but were projected with a "tachistoscope" (according to Snopes). Λυδαcιτγ 23:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amateur Movies

Shouldn't they add the author's name in the page. Anyways, I support Coke and Corn??? guy up there, but I make short, amateur movies and the frame count that the professional movie editing programs I've used is 30 and I've made a movie in which I inserted three subliminal messages saying the same thing. The most I could do was put it in 1/30 of a second with the lowest duration of light still slightly visible by the viewer. It worked with 2 out of 4 people that I have used as specimens. So, what is up with that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.160.190.193 (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Please do not show Rorschach inkblot images in public

As a psychologist who administers the Rorschach inkblot test, I want to express my concern about the use of one of the official Rorschach cards as the main picture for this and many other pages (relating to subliminal thought). These cards are not to be displayed publicly in any way because they obstruct the validity of the test. If someone takes this test after having previously seen even one of the images elsewhere, their protocol is spoiled (For this test was normed with individuals who were seeing the cards for the first time, thus eliciting a "fresh" response). If an image of an inkblot must be used, there are plenty of Inkblots that aren't part of the ten card Rorschach inkblot test. Dr. Atlas 71.141.237.95 00:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Pareidolia#Rorschach inkblots shouldn't be public. Λυδαcιτγ 00:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
That discussion was archived. The archival link is Talk:Pareidolia/Archive_1#Rorschach_inkblots_shouldn.27t_be_public here. It looks like User:Sarefo went ahead and uploaded Image:Inkblot.svg a month after the discussion concluded that the images should not be used, and can now be found in 19 articles. —Viriditas | Talk 08:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YouTube link

[b] moved the youtube link to the links section, instead of in a sentence; I can't check what it is though as I don't have flash; if someone could check it, and then delete this comment too, that's fine [/b]

The images presented in the link seem likely copyvio to me. Λυδαcιτγ 00:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Myst

In the video game Myst, Achenar's holographic chants in Channelwood is actually a recording of the words "Rush Limbaugh understands" run backwards. 192.88.212.68 17:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not trying to be political but... could be interesting

I've always considered myself a bit of a lefty, and I know this probably won't be put up in the main article because of copyright infringements that I have little knowledge of. I was one day browsing the web and came across an outright piece of propoganda at http://www.gop.com/Issues/, one interesting I noticed however were the pictures above the brief descriptions of each issue, I'm sure the democrats do the same but if anyone wanted what I would consider a subliminal message this is the most obvious example I could think of in the modern day, using positively reinforcing words in each picture could make people associate those words with George W. Bush. It's orignal research and my paranoia speaking but I'm not asking you to edit the article and this is probably conspiracy bullcrap I'm thinking, but I think people should at least have a look. I'm sorry if this comment just took up space and did not contribute to the article. 1607m4dsk1llz 04:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sadly Enough, that particular website and websites like it are used by many people as true sources of information. The whole goal is to present something your "average Joe" would see as the truth, because we all know authority is a good thing. 1607m4dsk1llz 00:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is nothing more than propoganda. I'm not sure if it's subliminal, however, as one presumably consciously notices the words. Λυδαcιτγ 01:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fMRI study

Perhaps this study can be of interest:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/notaware

Cheers Jurgenborg 01:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effectiveness?

The line "Subconscious stimulus by single words is well established to be modestly effective in changing human behavior or emotions." is not supported by the Skeptical Inquirer article cited. That claim needs a cite or should be deleted. 69.234.150.63 18:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manga

In Yu-Gi-Oh! Duelist Vol.1, there are subliminal messages. As well as in Tokyo Mew Mew a la Moda Vol.2. Can someone add this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.120.55 (talk) 19:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

and why there's no mention to all those "sex" writings in dinsey cartoons and various spots and advertisings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SquallLeonhart ITA (talk • contribs) 01:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My sleep machine has sub. message

I had this machine for many years with no problem. Now I have a new machine and only use this one for travel. I woke up one night in a motel to hear a terrible message being repeated over and over. I lifted my head to make sure I was hearing right and was. It was under the stream part of the noise in a kind of Bup bup bup bup bup. With the number of sylibles of the secret message. I heard it plain and clear and turned off the machine. and unplugged it. NO one believes I heard it. Not because they don't believe in the secret messages but they don't think I could have picked it up with my conscious mind. The message was what woke me up horrified. Is there somewhere I can send the machine to get it tested? It is a well known company I think. Could it be a onetime thing done by a prankster or God hater? Ellie2 (talk) 02:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Science Fair Projects

I would like to know how to test Subliminal messages in a way that would work for a science fair project. If you have any comments or suggestions please e-mail me at:

[rikyenns4@hotmail.com]

or

[sincon_1@msn.com] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rikyenns4 (talk • contribs) 19:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mcdonalds

Has anyone seen Mcdonalds subliminal advertising during food network shows...anyone have more info on this or a source--74.138.83.10 (talk) 01:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)