Talk:Subdivisions of the United Kingdom

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[edit] Map request

Maps already exist that could go on this page but the problem is deciding what layer of subdivision to use. As they are somewhat complicated and the sub-articles provide them anyway I would suggest none. MRSC 16:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps a conscious and motivated selection of maps - perhaps just one - to illustrate (ordered hierarchically?) which functions or layers are related to which administrative subdivisons. This would help the reader to get a quick overview. On the other hand, the Scotland and England artcicles seem somewhat confusing, to me at least. //Big Adamsky 16:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The CIA factbook map that you just inserted shows no administrative borders at all. Just the international border. Big Adamsky 16:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The structure is unfortunately so complex that to include maps would require pulling futher information out of the articles to explain them - effectively repeating the sub-articles. England alone has four levels of divisions and at one level (county) they are split into four types of unit which may (or may not) be then further divided by another two levels. That said, I have found at least one map that requires no further explanation. MRSC 16:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Venn [Euler] Diagram of the The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Sam has made up a Venn [Euler] Diagram that can be found at http://qntm.org/uk, i am not sure of the licence, but it may be of intrest as a link to. SkippyUK 13:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This Venn Diagram is that of the British Isles and not the United Kingdom, thus i propose it should be removed as to avoid confusion between both terms. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I beleve tt it covers both topics; and as such should be worthy of consideration SkippyUK (talk) 21:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Constituent country v. constituent part

According to Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use, Ordnance Survej of Great Britain and International Organization for Standardization UK consisting 4 constituent parts: 2 countries (England and Scotland), 1 principality (Wales) and 1 province (Northern Ireland) [1], [2]. So, informations in this article are wrong. Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Officially, maybe so - but within the UK, the terms "nation" and "country" are very widely used. I've amended the article to mention this. Bazonka (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
So, in Wikipedia we should use the official one. Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The terms "nation" and "country" are so widely used that it would be unthinkable not to refer to them. I'm not entirely sure that "principality" and "province" are official anyway (the documents you referred to are not necessarily authoritative) Bazonka (talk) 11:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

But, there are no sources in this article, so this is rather OR. Paper [3] is very official, because this is official documet presented by UK athorities on Ninth United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names (August 2007). So, if there are no official sources for terms "nation" and "country" they should be replaced by terminology from official documents (and informations about "very widely used" terms "nation" and "country" are allowed in annotations). Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the talk page on Constituent country you will find numerous citations of UK Government web sites which use the phrase country. I repeat them here.
  1. 10 Downing Street website "The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."
  2. 10 Downing Street website "Gordon Brown will travel to Wales today in his first visit to the country as Prime Minister."
  3. The Wales Office (Government Department for Wales) "Wales is a small but clever country. ...The remainder of the country is predominantly rural in character."
  4. Welsh Assembly Government Their strategic agenda is called "Wales: A Better Country".
  5. Visit Wales (the Welsh Tourist Board) "For a small country we have a varied and dramatic landscape"
  6. The Queen's Speech on the opening of the Welsh Assembly building "It is now up to you, by giving meaning to the ideals and aspirations of those you serve, by expressing the spirit of your rich and ancient culture, by shaping the very future of this country, to make this National Assembly a true symbol of Wales."
  7. The 2001 UK Census (country of birth: England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland, ROIreland, elsewhere)
  8. The Office of National Statistics ("In the context of the UK, each of the 4 main subdivisions (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is referred to as a country)".

--Snowded (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

The vast bulk of the UK text on the Constituent country would be more appropriate on this page. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 21:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it adds no value in its own right --Snowded (talk) 22:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't agree. The page constituent country is an explanation of the phrase, but this page is not the place to discuss semantics of that sort - this page should describe 'the subdivisions'. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the merge. Subdivisions of the United Kingdom should discuss the subdivisons not constituent country.WikipÉIRE\(caint) 13:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Disagree - there is a need for both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Any reasons why you feel that way?WikipÉIRE\(caint) 15:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi there. As I read it, the constituent country article is about any country in the world that is made up of constituent countries and not just the UK. Subdivisions of the UK is about all levels of subdivision (not just constituent county) within the UK alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 16:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Support for the merge. Keeping the sections separate has always stemmed unnecessary controversies. The content all deals with one issue - and as such, keeping them separate appears quite a random choice to make. 125.244.178.2 (talk) 12:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Laws in Wales Acts

The Laws in Wales Acts are important to the history of Wales, but not particularly significant as far as the formation of the United Kingdom is concerned. By the time the Acts were passed, Wales was already controlled by England and the Acts just formally annexed Wales to put it under English law. That is totally different from the Treaty of Union which led to the Acts of Union in 1707 - in this case, two sovereign states agreed to merge to form a political union. If we are going to include the Laws in Wales Acts, what other events may we also have to include? The clear starting point for the United Kingdom was 1707 with the Treaty of Union - not the Laws in Wales Acts. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Its an interesting question. I think you can either take the Statute of Rhuddlan or the Laws in Wales Acts, Rhuddlan is probably the most significant for the history of the UK - how about that? --Snowded (talk) 19:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Could I suggest that a possible way forward may be to include a reference to the Laws in Wales Acts in the third paragraph where it is discussing why England and Wales are sometimes treated as a single entity. I don't think it should be mentioned in the paragraph about the union of 1707. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Do we really need that paragraph about how the 4 countries united? It's not directly relevant to "Subdivisions of the United Kingdom", which describes the current state. At most, all that's needed is a reference to the History of the United Kingdom article. Bazonka (talk) 21:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think we do. It is important for readers to realise that the UK was not divided into 4 entities from the top down, as it were, but the other way about - what are now the subdivisions were the building blocks that created the union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 21:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, then all we need to say is something along the lines of "the UK was created from the merger of four countries - see History of the United Kingdom." Bazonka (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
On re-reading the article, I think you are right. The article does make clear that the UK is a political union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - that is sufficient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Overall it wasn't a merger. Ireland and Wales were conqurered (the Northern Ireland aspect comes after the creation of the United Kingdom when all bar six counties of Ulster became Eire. Scotland choose to join, although the economic and other pressures make the use of the word choice difficult. You certainly can't say they merged - its a complex history and at least has to be signified. --Snowded (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
How about "amalgamation" then? Details of how these 4 countries were amalgamated should sit elsewhere. Perhaps include a short sentence on how part of one of those countries then became independent. Bazonka (talk) 06:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Well you might say something like "The development of the United Kingdom through a mixture of conquest form treaties of incorporation (needs a lawyer to get that phrase right) is the result of a complex history. During Roman times what is now England Wales and part of Scotland constituted the Roman province of X. The bulk of Scotland and Ireland comprised Y (something line a set of king and fiefdoms?). During the post Roman period up until the Norman Conquest successive invasions forced teh Romao-celts into what is now Wales and Cornwall (kernow). Cornwall was absorbed into Norman England (when?) and Wales conquered and incorporated through the Statute of Rhuddlan. Ireland moved in and out of English influence over the years but was finally incorporated in Z. Scotland remained an independent nation until Y when the Act of Union created a common parliament, but maintained differences in the legal and other systems. The early part of the 20th Century the Irish independence movement gained strength resulting in the creation or Eire. However six counties of Northern Ireland, albeit with their own Parliament were maintained with what was now know as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". It could be worded a lot better but that sort of makes the point? --Snowded (talk) 06:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
My point is that none of that is relevant. Keep it short, brief and to the point. This is not the UK History article.
"The United Kingdom was created from the amalgamation of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The majority of Ireland subsequently became independent, leaving just six counties within the UK, now known as Northern Ireland. See History of the United Kingdom."
No other information is needed here. Bazonka (talk) 07:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

UK, now known as Northern Ireland. See History of the United Kingdom."

I think the history is relevant, even here. However lets see what other people think. Possibly something between the two would make sense--Snowded (talk) 12:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) in the absence of further comment I implemented the earlier suggest of Fishiehelper2 to use the third paragraph, leaving the introduction as it stands.