Talk:Sub-Saharan Africa

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Contents 1 Comment 2 Request for comment 15 July 2007 3 Minor formatting edits should help review, intial comments on references 4 Article request: Kimani Nehusi 5 Leftover cleanup of old Black Africa article 6 Relevant comment left on my user talk page 7 OK, I've done some looking and have a proposal 8 List of editors since 16 June 9 Request. 10 Request: Hebrew Link 11 Rewrite 12 Please stop using the term "Sub Saharan Africa" 13 Source wanted for Sub-Saharan Africa 14 INCORRECT INFORMATION 15 LETS NOT EDIT TO FIT OUR VIEW 16 IS SUDAN SUB-SAHARAN? 17 MAPS 18 ECONOMICS 19 Stop the Pathology 20 Maps 21 Sudan 22 More Maps 23 Vandalism 24 Northern-centric terminology 25 To Sir Paul 26 To Dbachman 27 Divisions

[edit] Comment

First of all, FayssalF has blocked Mariam83 (talk · contribs) indefinitely, and with good cause. See the discussion here. Second, because she's gone, I have unprotected the article. And third, her racist comments are really quite useless, so I think all her comments on this talk page should be removed and not archived. How does this sound? Picaroon (Talk) 04:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

While the indefinite block was richly deserved (having been involved in her edits to the Maghreb and other North African articles), why remove the evidence? I should think it likely the person will come back, and a record of this strikes me as useful. collounsbury 15:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC).

Agreed. Just archive it. --Richard 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Archive but for different reasons. Just because an editor is an ass 10% or 90% or 99.99% of the time doesn't mean they never have anything useful to say. I'm here because of one of the CFDs, and I'll need to wade through all the statements, even statements by obvious trolls, before I can offer an informed opinion. Speaking of CFD, how far back in the history do I need to go to get a good feel for what's going on, and how far back to get a complete picture of the current controversy? Also, is there any other major contributor who is blocked from editing this talk page? If you are, and want me to realize you will no longer be contributing, feel free send me an email. Do not use this as an opportunity to get me to ghostwrite for you, it "ain't gonna happen." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the main source is an original source, in that it is a "novel" and peripheral interpretation of history. The author attempts to establish an Africa that never existed as it does in his mind. North Africa, as separate from Sub-saharan Africa, played a very prominent role in world civilization, but this cannot be attributed to Black or sub-saharan Africa. It is, furthermore, inaccurate to state, as the article does, that dark skinned people are indigenous to North Africa, as the original Berbers of Mediterranean North Africa (and not wikipedia's definition of Berbers, which enmeshes various unrelated groups from regions outside of north africa with the original Berbers) are of Eurasian stock, as is evidenced by Berber populations that have remained insular, and as dark skinned Arabs or Mediterranean populations do not resemble sub-saharan Africans, a given that further ridicules the content of this article. The point is, wikipedia's founder objects to the use of original research, esp. in matters of culture or history etc. This novel interpretation is not accepted by academia and the people of the region, because it is eccentric and unfounded and akin to the claim that Greek culture and thus European civilization stems from Black Africa (black Athena). In matters of history, culture etc. writing should model that of Britannica or other scholarly work, which would very clearly discuss sub-saharan africa's identity without deviating or muddling definitions, as this does. This matter is 4 weeks old, and surprised that everything has been archived. Admins that were involved in this dispute attempted several times to remove the CDF addition.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.90.234.22 (talk • contribs) 12:13, 16 July 2007.

[edit] Request for comment 15 July 2007

Sub-saharan Africa The entire article is written from a "novel narrative or historical interpretation" perspective, with the following source, which is original research and unused and unaccepted by the scholarly community, world and not used in academia [1]. The source is being used to write novel interpretations of labels etc. pertaining to the region and relevant articles, which is unencylopedic and incorrect. The administrators and editors involved have thus far ignored content and focused on disputes. Furthermore, the administrators involved have betrayed an ingrained preference, as most were involved in dispute over content in the first place. They have not commented nor seem interested in the main problem: source and POV/novel interpretation. The article needs to be reviewed by uninvolved parties, and the source looked into. 01:55, 15 July 2007

I am removing this RFC from the list of RFCs. If it is still active then please resubmit. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor formatting edits should help review, intial comments on references

I did some minor formatting edits to the references and made the countries multicolumn. This should make the article easier on outside reviewers and general readers alike. The links aren't all in the same format, my main concern was getting "http://" off of the visible part of the link. I also changed one dead link to its old copy on The Internet Archive. There's still a lot of work left on the reference formatting but at least now it will be easier to make comments on the quality and appropriateness of the references themselves.

Some initial comments on the references: I am not ready to comment on the quality of the references. When all references supporting a fact come from the same web site, it invites questions of independence. It could be that this web site is a repository of people who coincidently share the same world view, in which case that's okay. On the other hand, they could be colleagues, in which case it's best to pick a single reference. For most things, one reference is all that is needed. The History section needs references. The Economic section needs additional references. Items in the intro usually don't have references because the intro summarizes what comes later. Any items in the intro that are not spelled out and referenced later need references. davidwr ^(talk)/_(track) 21:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article request: Kimani Nehusi

To anyone who has an interest: The previous article for Kimani Nehusi was speedy deleted for copyright violations. About 8 articles link to it. If someone would write an article about him that meets all of the Wikipedia article criteria, including no copyright violations and WP:BLP that would help the project. Expect challenges based on notability, so be sure to include several independent citations to his notability. If you find you cannot write a quality article that meets Wikipedia standards, please de-link him in the main article. Thanks. davidwr ^(talk)/_(track) 21:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leftover cleanup of old Black Africa article

Black Africa is now a soccer team. The article was created on top of the old redirect, and it took over the old talk page. I cleaned up Talk:Black Africa and fixed up the handful of incoming main-article links so they point to Sub-Saharan Africa instead. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relevant comment left on my user talk page

Henriettaz, an account with only 6 or 7 edits, all today, left me a couple of messages on my talk page. The gist is he's a Wiki newbie and has been editing for only a few weeks. It's his opinion that these articles are "owned" by people who pushing an point of view that is contrary to his. He also believes some of the sources currently used in the article are not high quality. Here's a snippet:

“

The editors use this original source to redefine the term sub-saharan. In the current version, it is defined as solely a geographic label, which is inaccurate. Sub-saharan Africa is not only geographic, as the Sahara is not inhabited and uninhabitable, but also, and most importantly, racial, cultural and historical. The fact that the editors repeatedly deleted the addition of an anti-afrocentric critique is significant. Why wikipedia has not yet noticed the "novelty" of this interpretation is shocking, and possibly also due to the fact that this same original source is used in all related articles, which redirect to it and vice versa.

”

I'm too new to this discussion to comment on the merits of his statements. Any others from outside this discussion should read these comments, and post links to relevant comments that show up on their user pages if they think it would help the overall discussion. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 12:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OK, I've done some looking and have a proposal

I've looked over some of the comments for the past few months. It looks like the dispute is over what exactly Sub-Sahara Africa really means and which of the competing definitions should be used in Wikipedia. In other words, which POV world view will dominate an article which as a whole must be WP:NPOV. In an article like this, NPOV means in part reflecting the points of view who have a point of view, in accordance with their numbers.

I have a proposal:

• Go look at what others have done for Sub-Sahara Africa, Black Africa, and similar terms. What does the Encyclopedia Britannica do? What does World Book do? What does Encarta do? Do they even have an article or do they just say "see: Africa" or "see: list of articles about various parts of Africa or various countries and cultures in Africa"? Do they take a geographic approach, an ethnic approach, a genetic approach, a linguistic approach, a religious approach, an economic approach, a political approach, or some combination to define Black Africa or Sub-Sahara Africa?
• Go look at what recent academic and scientific literature has to say on the topic. Do 99% of academics and scientists subscribe to one opinion, or is there a significant minority opinion? Is the dominant opinion a supermajority, a majority, or a plurality?
• Do you, as editors, want to have an article that is mainly for the layman or one that shoots for a more scholarly readership? If the former, I recommend focusing on what other encyclopedias think is important. If the latter, I recommend focusing on what scholars think is important.
• Do you, as editors, want a history-of-the-term section, and if so, whose history? Perhaps more than one? The history of the term "Black Africa" in English culture may be far different than in Egyptian culture. Consider WP:UNDUE when making this decision.

Once you've done the research and collectively decided if you want to be more general-interest or more scholarly, then decide what to put into the encyclopedia. This being an encyclopedia, I would personally recommend going the general-audience route, at least to start with. This will probably come down to a vote, but if it is close perhaps a general purpose article with more than the usual amount of scientific discussion would be a good compromise.

No matter which way you go, I recommend acknowledging minority views and giving them due weight without giving them undue weight. Due weight for a fringe opinion shared by half a dozen close-knit academics may be a sentence and a reference. If it's shared by 10% of the academics out there, it may be a couple of paragraphs and several references. If it's 45% of the academic community then it should take almost as much room as the dominant point of view. This is in my opinion one aspect of wiki-neutrality.

There is at least one point of view that some here have called novel and others have all but labeled fringe. I encourage everyone here to set aside their own prejudices and go research secondary sources like book reviews, journal articles that are not primary sources, newspaper articles that are not original research, and the like as well as tertiary sources like encyclopedia articles, and report back here with with what they find. Online sources and sources found at almost every public library are preferred only because everyone here can go read the whole article in context.

As you make your decisions, don't forget the voices of the silenced. It is unfortunate that one user representing a particular POV has been blocked from editing. However, that person's POV is just as valid as everyone else's POV. As you gather your sources, it will be tempting to only report back sources that represent YOUR POV. Please don't do this. You are building an encyclopedia of general knowledge, not an encyclopedia of your world-view. Please bring back all relevant information so it can be digested and discussed.

Once you, as a group, have all the material together, you can decide where to go from there.

Finally, and probably most important swallow your pride, shake hands with your intellectual opponent, and be WP:CIVIL.

If you do this right, it should take at least a few days to gather the data and decide how to proceed, and a few more days or weeks to come up with a revised article. Until then, I recommend that everyone make a gentlemen's agreement to only make grammar and other minor edits. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I've watched edit wars on this article for a couple of years. and have seen other encyclopedias cited at times. General interest and mainstream academic views are going to largely concur. There are actually interesting things that could be said about how linguistic, genetic, etc. data concur or not, but I've only seen a limited amount of it in the article so far, and that content would probably be safer in articles with more specific and less controversial names.

The Afrocentric view, of course, hates the term. Personally I think the only hope at stability is to state the Afrocentric view prominently in the article as a well-known minority POV, while keeping it not too long and acknowledging what the mainstream view thinks of this. Even then, I think there are likely to be periodic edit wars as new Afrocentric editors appear, are outraged, and post in a way that outrages the mainstream camp. The article will probably have to be protected or monitored even over the long term.

I would also support keeping the article as short as possible and putting detailed information in other articles or subarticles, to limit damage from edit wars and discourage lengthy additions. But I also don't think this is likely to be stable with open editing. --JWB 02:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of editors since 16 June

The list of recent editors is quite small. It will be that much harder for the remaining editors to make an article that is free of their own personal bias. To aid contacting recent editors, I've put together this list of editors since June 16.

Please make corrections as needed. Each line is in order by most recent edit of that type, give or take human error.

• Other than minor or revert: 68.89.186.87, 66.139.9.56, Lonewolf BC, Mariam83, RastaRule, Halaqah, Collounsbury
• minor or revert only: Ezeu, Antandrus, 219.132.138.231, Koavf, Zerida, Deeceevoice, CambridgeBayWeather, Chan Yin Keen
• Also Protecting/Unprotecting: Ezeu, Richardsusr

• Official socks list. Don't add your own suspects here please, get them added to the official lists instead. DO add new puppetmasters once someone makes a page for them.

• Marian83 confirmed, suspected

Some cautions regarding sockpuppets:

• Two people sharing similar ideas acting independently and who share the same IP address range can be falsely labeled sockpuppets. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is usually but not always a duck.
• Just because someone edits under multiple nicks doesn't mean their contributions are worthless. It only means their contributions are one person's point of view, not that of a group. In the case of block-evading puppets it also means that the person does not respect blocks. It also means their contributions can be reverted on sight, and anyone restoring the text takes moral responsibility for it as if they were the author.

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

just to say that User:Mariam83 has evidently returned: same edits on same pages (under a different user name on each one), also from Texas... Drmaik 05:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request.

It would be nice to see the Nile on the maps of Africa, especially as it is mentioned in the second paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.41.15.1 (talk) 23:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request: Hebrew Link

I created a Hebrew article, please insert link: he:אפריקה שמדרום לסהרה. --Amnon s 00:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I personally think this article needs a complete rewrite. The sections are slurred, such as the mention of Eve in the economies with no link to the economy of anywhere, and there's no section on Religion, Culture, etc. I can't do this because I don't know much about SS Africa, I was researching it. --67.142.130.42 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop using the term "Sub Saharan Africa"

Other regions' names are qualified by their geographical location or their people(s) -- for example, Eastern Europe, North America, Central America, South East Asia, Latin America, and even North Africa. Why should the region to the south of the Sahara be different? As a minimum, use the term "Africa South of the Sahara". Better still, use Southern Africa, Central Africa, North Africa. You wouldn't use "Super Saharan Africa", so why is Sub Saharan Africa acceptable?

I am sure this argument has been made here many times, but I feel compelled to speak up lest the "vocal majority" think theirs is the predominant viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.106.237 (talk) 08:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite simply because Sub Saharan Africa means Africa South of the Sahara, and is more concise, and North Africa is clear. "Southern" or "South Africa" refers respectively to the region around the state of South Africa and the Republic of South Africa itself, generally speaking. Ergo an alternative developed, Sub Saharan (below Sahara) Africa. Neutral, relatively concise, and also not subject to confusion as other terms are. The objection to the term is simply idiotic and without basis. I should add that adding in criticism of the term should certainly be qualified by noting the illogic of the criticism and its marginality. Bloody offenderati. (collounsbury (talk) 13:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC))

well sub saharan africa is used instead of the older term used in the past black africa ,i mean it is undeniable that north africans particular the countries of egypt,tunisia,morrocco,algeria,and libya are a different people from sub sarhran africans and or tropical africans,i mean there is no slight on nobody using the term i mean using the term is really no different than somebody calling east asia the far east or west asia the near east.i mean they are both still asian peoples but are a different people, but living on the same continent or landmass does not mean that people are the same phenotype and / or genotype it is sad that afrocentrism plagues this world wiht its non sence--Mikmik2953 (talk) 01:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

How is "Africa South of the Sahara" any better than this term? Seems more awkward and (much) less widely-used to me. Furthermore, "Latin America" is not geographical; it, like this, is based more on the population than the area the population happens to inhabit. And of course we wouldn't use "Super-Saharan Africa", as North Africa is a much better term. Political correctness doesn't factor into Wikipedia's decision about inclusion of articles; we just report on what others have said. However, if you'd like to add some sourced, academic criticism of the term, you are more than welcome. Picaroon (t) 01:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Quite, sub-Saharan Africa is the normal term used to refer to this region, sub just means "under", like Submarine means "under the sea". We do not use neologisms on Wikipedia. I don't see what the objection is to using perfectly well known words and phrases, there's nothing pejorative about the phrase. After all we also use the term Indian subcontinent. Alun (talk) 16:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Source wanted for Sub-Saharan Africa

Hello. The corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article is still named Black Africa, and the move proposal to Sub-Saharan Africa is now pending because there is no source provided for the reason why the latter is better, though we agreed the latter term is getting more and more popular. Do you have any source for the reason of the change in terminology? - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"Sub-Saharan Africa" is a technical term used a lot by international organizations. Searching it, you get a lot of articles about economic development, health programs, etc. "Black Africa" has more articles about art, culture, history. Both terms offend some people - in this talk page, you can see people repeatedly complaining about "Sub-Saharan Africa". I don't think there is any term that is widely recognized and does not offend anybody. --JWB (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I know the term Sub-Saharan Africa is used a lot recently. I want to have a source to show it is preferred to Black Africa. It's totally okay if it is because of anti-racism, geological correctness, or whatever. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The Japanese article should follow common and accepted Japanese usage. It does not have to be the same as English usage, any more than that the Japanese article on Japan should be called "Japan". Paul B (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That is true, although if you look at the actual situation, 27 languages currently do use a translation of Sub-Saharan Africa, and Polish, Hungarian and Japanese currently use a translation of the earlier English title Black Africa. So apparently English Wikipedia is in fact used as a usage guide, or other Wikipedias try to define terms from English usage. (I haven't checked if any of those languages have an independent article titled Black Africa or similar.) --JWB (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Eh? While Sub Saharan Africa is probably a better term, the fact other wikis use it says nothing per se about following English usage as such. It may be the usage has become polite or dominant in that language. (collounsbury (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC))

Googling "subsaharan africa" vs "black africa" seems to just give a lot of pages that use both terms alternately. The only ones that discuss preferring one over the other are Wikipedia and mirrors.

My guess so far is that there is not an overwhelming preference for one term over the other. I think the article should mention both terms, but that doesn't solve the question of the title. Subsaharan Africa is a bit more formal or technical, and that seems like a legitimate reason for preferring it as the official title. --JWB (talk) 19:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you guys for the discussion. I'm afraid there is no academic source to convince pro-Black Africa people to rename the article.

Speaking of the Wikipedia standard, the English version is more internationally accepted than other language versions because there are many people who understand both English and their own language, just like me. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice the Japanese article refers to "White Africa" which is a redirect to North Africa though! This is definitely nonstandard. All references to "White Africa" seem to be about South Africa or other European settler communities in Southern Africa. --JWB (talk) 07:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] INCORRECT INFORMATION

"The peoples south of the Sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world."

I am removing this statement. It is incorrect and has a smattering of Jarred Diamond and Eurocentrism. How could the sub-saharan Mali and Songhay Empire developed isolated and created one of the premier learning centers of the islamic world, the pre-eminent civilization of the time? Her trade with the muslim world was significant and crucial. How could the sub-saharan Swahili states have developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world when it was trading with Persia, India, and China? In Great Zimbabwe Chinese artifacts have been found which would indicate trade with China via the Swahili states. Most of these subsaharan civilizations were trading with Asia. If Axum is sub-saharan, how do one explain her connection to Arabia, especially the Southern part if she developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world? If Nubia in Sudan, part of Sub-saharan Africa developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world, how did she conquer Egypt and part of the Levant? Nubia, sub-saharan,was a major player in Meditteranean power politics in the Ancient world. If Nubia is sub-saharan then sub-saharan Africa had civilization before Europe. If significant civilizations in sub-saharan Africa had contacts with other civilization outside the continents how did "the peoples South of the sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world"? Omniposcent (talk) 04:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say isolation in absolute terms. "Relative" means compared to other cases, namely contact between parts of Eurasia.

If "isolation" sounds inflammatory, perhaps a better statement would be that the Sahara was often a more difficult barrier than most of those between regions of Eurasia, especially in the period after desiccation but before the introduction of horses and then camels. Evidence for the Indian Ocean trade so far also does not go back farther than the classical and medieval periods. The Nile and Bab al-Mandeb were less difficult routes, and of course this is also where we find the most cultural overlap between Africa and Eurasia. --JWB (talk) 05:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sub-saharan is absolute. The fact that the Mali and the Songhay empires(sub saharan) were major learning center of the Islamic world and her scholars were sought after throughout the islamic world, how is that "relative isolation" because of the sahara? Mali and Songhay seem to be part of that world. Europe was in her middle age, she was more isolated from the "rest of the world." Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece. The Swahili States(sub saharan)was trading with Persia, India, and China. How is that "relative isolation." The "rest of the world" for example Europe was in her dark and middle age, she was more isolated than the Swahilli states(sub saharan). One uses this Eurasian terminology both in a cultural context and as a continent. One must compare apples with apples, continent with continent. You can't compare a continent with a subregion(especially artificially constructed), Eurasia vs sub-saharan Africa. About 2000 years of civilization (writing, domesticated animals, agriculture) there is no Europe in the equation of Eurasia only in Africa(including Nubia sub-saharan Africa) and Asia(Eurasia).Omniposcent (talk) 04:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

While I am all for recognizing Mali and the attendant Sahelian states, your claims supra are bad hyperbole. Mediteranean Europe was rather more connected with the Islamic world than sub-Saharan Mali, nor were its scholars sought after, the contrary, Mali imported Maghrebine and other scholars. The cultural achievements of the old Ghana, Malian and subsequent empires were significant, but pseudo-science claims do your argument injustice. (collounsbury (talk) 18:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

Sir this is "supra bad hyperbole" and pseudo science.

"The peoples south of the Sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world."

The person who inspired it has been given scientific awards by your Eurocentric mainstream. Unless you are talking about Spain, Mediterranean Europe, being more connected to Islamic civilization than Mali, I don't know what you are talking about. Was not religion/culture the ultimate barrier? Last I checked one of Timbuctu's pre-eminent scholars died in Spain, Andalusia. First Sir you have made an assumption about me, in so doing you attributed a "supra bad hyperbole" claim to me that I have not stated and I don't hold. I never said nor do I hold that Timbuctu never imported scholars from the Maghrebine quite the opposite they came from all over the muslim world Fez, Cairo and even Mecca, largely due to Timbuktu's rigorous curriculum and book manufacturing and copying activities, of trade in salt and gold. This quote best captures my position:

"The scholars of Timbuktu yielded nothing to the sojourns [and academics] in the foreign universities of Fez, Tunis and Cairo. The Blacks astounded the learned men of Islam in their erudition. That these Negroes [Blacks] were on a level with the Arabian savants [scholars] is proved by the fact that they were installed as professors in Morocco and Egypt, in contrast to this we find that Arabs were not always equal to the requirements of Sankore [in Timbuktu]."

Sir you have also made a "supra bad hyperbole" yourself in the comment "nor were its scholars sought after, the contrary, Mali imported Maghrebine and other scholars." This is reflective of the Eurocentric mindset. Africa imports , it never produce. Africa is an imitator. Lastly, Mali and Songhai not being in "relative isolation" is just one of the claims. Is all my claims pseudo science?Omniposcent (talk) 06:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LETS NOT EDIT TO FIT OUR VIEW

Someone removed Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia from the Sub saharan country section. Please don't change the definition because it doesn't fit ones sacred belief. Omniposcent (talk) 21:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The lone exception to this rule has traditionally been and still is to a large extent the Horn of Africa, home to the racially, linguistically and culturally distinct people of Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea and Djibouti and eastern-most terminus of the Sahara desert.^[1]

I have removed this line. This is original research. Second, the reference does not support the claim. If one scan the Western mainstream and African periodicals Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia are part of East Africa, thereby sub-saharan. There are 41 countries in sub saharan Africa, not 38. Racially if we are talking about phenotypes Ethiopians/Eritrea are quite distinct from Somalis and are culturally distinct too. Why not say West Africans are distinct? Blacks in the sahel say Wolof, Fulani, Mandinke can be physically distinct too blacks in the forest areas like Yoruba, Igbo, Ashanti. Both regions are quite culturally distinct. Linguistically the Afro-asiatic is also spoken in West Africa, Hausa for example. The Horn of Africa is not distinct in that manner. If you are a Eurocentrist, the term was defined by you. Please don't change the definition because your own definition has proven you wrong. Your notion of primitive sub saharan Africa does not hold. An inferior Black race is the motive, it also does not hold.Omniposcent (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IS SUDAN SUB-SAHARAN?

"Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece."

It seems this little comment has offended the Eurocentric mind and sensibilities. We are changing the definitions because our beliefs are threatened. The article now has conflicting information. The first map of sub-saharan Africa shows Sudan as part of sub-saharan Africa. Another map shows her as being part of North Africa and in the country list Sudan is under East Africa with a North Africa designation. The map that puts Sudan in North Africa has a UN reference. Is Sudan North African or Sub-saharan? In the UN website Sudan appears in both the Sub-saharan and North African country list. On the UN website there is conflicting information.

http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation3/menu/advanced.asp http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm

Sudan is a sub-saharan country. The World Bank class Sudan as a sub-saharan country http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/eastafr.pdf. Scanning all Western mainstream periodicals New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, etc., Sudan is classed a sub-saharan nation. African periodicals(http://allafrica.com) class her as East African, thereby sub-saharan. All general histories of Sudan classes her as Sub-saharan. References within this very article classes her as sub-saharan http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/subsaharan.jpg http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/subsaharanafrica. Omniposcent (talk) 20:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

In the East African section I am putting Sudan back under general East Africa. To put Sudan under North Africa contradicts the meaning of Sub-saharan. We are dealing with broad geographic regions not economic unions or regions. Second, Sub-saharan civilizations were Nubia, Axum, Swahili States, Wagadu (Ghana Empire), Mali Empire, Nok, Songhai Empire, Kanem, Bornu, Benin, Great Zimbabwe, and The Zulu Empire. Wikipedia's policy states one must edit and discuss any changes.Omniposcent (talk) 02:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The u.n only has sudan part of north africa is because of politcal reasons because of the large arab presence in sudan,but sudan geographicaly is a part of sub saharan africa/black africa--Wikiscribe (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

"Sub-Saharan" actually is used mostly in political and economic contexts, where the units are countries, in spite of the term itself referring to an environmental feature, so it is not irrelevant to list regional organizations. Also, whether Sudan is considered part of North Africa, East Africa, both, or neither does not determine whether it is considered part of Sub-Saharan Africa, or vice versa.

In any case Southern Sudan is planning independence in 2011, and will be sub-Saharan by any definition, and probably no longer included in North Africa by anyone. The rest of Sudan will likely continue to be an intermediate case like Mauritania. --JWB (talk) 22:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan is not just used mostly in an economic or political context. It is widely used in the racial context mainly "Black Africa." This is why the article is much argued. The distance sub regions of sub-saharan Africa have very little economic or political context. What is the political and economic context between west Africa and southern Africs? None. The only context is in a geographic sense, south of the sahara and the racial context "black Africa". The latter being why some countries are not exactly south of the sahara. I was illustrating based on the preponderance of the data, the Western mainstream press, the African press, and the traditional historical writing on Sudan places her as "Sub-saharan", "black Africa." Very few sources cite Sudan as North African(only conflicting UN and IMF sources). Here is a quote from the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, an Arab, in rejecting troops to the Darfur region.

"They want to colonize Africa, starting with the first sub-Saharan country to gain its independence(Sudan). If they want to start colonization in Africa, let them choose a different place."

He never said it was North African. Eurocentrist play semantic games with the word Arab and obscure African history. In the Western mind an Arab is a white guy from the Middle East or from Saudi Arabia. Arab is not a race. For centuries Black Africans have been taking on Arab identities. In African history an Arab could be a Black African or a Black African Arab. A large percentage of Muhammed's earliest converts to Islam were Black Africans, Ethiopians.

A perfect illustration of all of these points. The Westerm press portrays the conflict in Sudan as Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing of native Black Africans to the South and West. Those Arabs are native Black Africans. In fact, I have quite a few friends from northern Sudan, who are Arabs. I usually tease them by saying "I thought you were white." They usually burst out laughing or usually crack a grin. They typically explain to me they are Arabs but they are also black Africans. That is why I like to use the word Islamic instead of Arab. Omniposcent (talk) 01:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan Africa is synonymous with Black Africa, although the region does in fact share a good deal of economic and political context.

"Arab" has multiple meanings, but the most relevant modern one is simply people whose native language is Arabic.

Personally I would not say "North African" is Sudan's most prominent identity, yet some sources like the UN Geoscheme classify it as both North African and sub-Saharan without any contradiction between the two, and the article should cover the various major viewpoints. --JWB (talk) 04:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

West Africa, especially the Sahelian region, historically has had more economic and political context with North Africa than say Southern Africa. The tran-saharan trade in gold and salt made Berber cities on the Meditteranean and Sahelian societies interdependent. Berber cities became more prosperous and strong by connecting West African goods to the Meditteranean/ European world during Phoenician, Roman, and Arab periods. Sahelian societies became prosperous and strong by exporting gold and importing salt. Most of the gold in the Meditteranean/European world came from the trans-saharan trade. Morocco invaded Songhay to control that gold trade. With Europeans bypassing the trans-saharan routes via the Atlantic, the signifigance of those coastal Berber cities diminished. We see a similiar setup with Egypt(North Africa) and Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Nubia (Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) provided gold and other sub-saharan goods to Egypt. It was one of the reason Egypt(North Africa) invaded Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Some will say that Nubia is a carbon copy of Egypt. Yes later on in its history Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) copied Egypt(North Africa) but when Egypt(North Africa)was first being settled she was copying Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). If Nubia is not black thereby not sub-saharan and not in Sudan one must provide proof of the "various major veiwpoints" that backs this up, besides one U.N. map that does not explain itself. Southern Africa had more political and economic context with East Africa, especially Great Zimbabwe with the Swahili States than say West Africa. All of Africa not just Sub-saharan had great political and economic context with each other, especially the region that was close to each other. Omniposcent (talk) 18:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm mostly talking about the modern period, which is where the term "sub-Saharan" is most used.

There was also a period before the Saharan trade - the camel arrived only about 2000 years ago, the horse a few thousand more. And even farther back than that, there was a wet Sahara period, though relatively short. See Saharan pump theory.

Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan? Again, this is separate from the UN regional divisions, which are not based on race or ancient history.

I have no problem with a return of the term "Black Africa" to this article. It is synonymous and still often seen in discussions of culture, art, etc. as opposed to modern politics and economy. However some people seem to feel it is derogatory and have removed it. --JWB (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The term sub-saharan is used from the beginning of the Sahara to the present, with the same racial overtones. There seems to be an over-emphasis on sub-saharan importation. The horse was not domesticated in Europe. It was domesticated in Central Asia, this knowledge was then imported to Europe. Most of the significant domesticated plants and animals in the Eurasian model were domesticated in Asia and North Africa. Like sub-saharan Africa, Europe imported most of the knowledge. We see the importation emphasis with writing. We can conclude that modern day writing is a very African enterprise. After all the Latin script, the Cyrillic script, Greek script, Hebrew script, Arabic script(largely exported to sub-saharan Africa) and other Asian scripts are derived from the Phoenician script. The Phoenician script was derived from proto-Canaanite script. Proto-Canaanite from Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The Egyptians were the first to develop an alphabet based written language. Egyptian culture is African, in the sub-saharan sense (no debate here). You asked, "Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan?" I will let you answer your own question:

"Personally I would not say "North African" is Sudan's most prominent identity, yet some sources like the UN Geoscheme classify it as both North African and sub-Saharan without any contradiction between the two, and the article should cover the various major viewpoints."

I don't know what criteria the UN used to classify Sudan as North African. All I know North Africa and close surrounding Sub-saharan regions are economically and politically connected "in modern times." For example water can be big issue politically and economically between Egypt(North Africa) and Sudan(Sub-saharan) in "modern times." Water issues can determine if Egypt will support troops to Darfur or not. I accept Black Africa as Sub-saharan. This does not mean that I accept North Africa as white Africa. North Africans are phenotypically to varied for that category and genetics does not support this. I thought that the one drop rule was only an American phonomena. It seems to be the view of Europe too, in scanning mainstream European periodicals. If that is the case, using the one drop rule, all of North Africa is Black. Omniposcent (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything on "importation" in the article, or how your digression on Europe is relevant to this article. Europe imported the things you mentioned, nobody disputes this or even considers it an issue.

Most likely the UN put Sudan in a region with North Africa because of common language and because of current transport and economic links. There is little commerce between Sudan and its neighbors to the west, south and east. Most trade is via Egypt or the Red Sea. --JWB (talk) 09:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MAPS

I have removed the first Africa map from the List of Countries. It does not give info on sub-saharan Africa. I have also removed the second map from the list of countries because Sudan is not normally considered part of North Africa, it is considered sub-saharan. Plus, this is about Sub-saharan Africa not North Africa. She can be excluded. I have also place the second top map in the List of Countries section. It completely defines sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent (talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ECONOMICS

"Generally, sub-Saharan Africa is the poorest region in the world, suffering from the effects of colonialism, economic mismanagement, local corruption. and inter-ethnic conflict."

I have added colonialism to the list because inter-ethnic conflict and artificial political structures introduced during colonial times are behind a lot of Africa's political and economic problems. Some would argue corruption is not bad. Many Asian countries were corrupt but were able to develop economically. Transfering development funds to Swiss bank accounts or to foreign banks is the culprit. Taking developmental funds outside a country is the culprit. Omniposcent (talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stop the Pathology

It contrasts with North Africa, which is Egyptian and Berber. The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and Sub-Saharan Africa.

North Africa contrast within itself. Your statement on the Sahel is original research that it is not part of Sub-saharan Africa. Sub-saharan africa has already been define. If you are going to change the definition, Wikipedia's rule says you must discuss your changes and explain.Omniposcent (talk) 20:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Horn of Africa and Southern Sudan are technically part of Sub-Saharan Africa, but nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern (Islamic) influence.^{[citation needed]}

The Horn of Africa and Southern Sudan are not "technically" part of Sub-saharan Africa. The Horn of Africa and Southern Sudan are part of Sub-saharan Africa, and what you mean is Northern Sudan not Southern Sudan. The Sahel, the Swahili states show strong Middle East and Islamic influence too. You are trying to say it really is not Sub-saharan. That is poving. Europe technically was civilize by the Middle East. The spread of Christianity is what brought her civilization via the Roman Empire, outside her boundaries. Stop the pathology in trying to restrict the Black African. It is an ingrain Western tradition. Omniposcent (talk) 20:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Also Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Again, if one makes changes please announce why and support your argument. The sahara was an effective barrier not and insurmountable barrier. Before camels, the donkey and the oxen were used. The camel made the length of crossing shorter. Most of the gold used in the Meditteranean to mint coins came from the trans-saharan trade.Omniposcent (talk) 21:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maps

I am removing this map.

Before one makes a change please announce the change and explain why.

[edit] Sudan

Southern Sudan (autonomous region of Sudan with independence referendum in 2011)

Last time. We have had this discussion. The majority of the data supports ALL of Sudan as sub-saharan. This notation implies that only the Southern part of Sudan is Sub-saharan. This perspective is not documented. Second, you are engaging in original research. I have read all forms of African Historiography, from liberal to clinical cambridge press history, all Western mainstream African historiography. None have divided up Sudan to the South as just Sub-saharan. This is the pathology that exist. The perverse need to restrict "black" African achievements. Some find African achievements in civilizaton threatening. Are we going to have a debate as to whether Nubians were black? For the records all pre-roman, pre-christian, pre-islamic Berber and Egyptian culture shared the same cultural themes as those of sub-saharan Africa. They were Africans. Omniposcent (talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, the intention was not to exclude northern Sudan from sub-Saharan Africa. It was just to list Southern Sudan, which is now completely autonomous and will be formally independent in a couple of years. I did not add a separate entry for Northern Sudan under the Sudan heading because the Sudanese government does not define Northern Sudan as a separate single subnational region. I am going to add Southern Sudan back, but if you feel a note clarifying that both North and South are considered part of sub-Saharan Africa is needed, go ahead and add it.--JWB (talk) 06:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

My edits was to emphasized that it was part of East Africa thereby sub-saharan.Omniposcent (talk) 09:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More Maps

I am removing this map. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. It should reflect the language of only Sub-saharan Africa. The article is not about language families of Africa. That is the appropriate context of this map.

Omniposcent (talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "It should reflect the language of only Sub-saharan Africa" - how would we do that? --JWB (talk) 06:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't use it. I guess I will have to construct my own map of sub-saharan africa. Omniposcent (talk) 07:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought your position was that there has been lots of contact across the Sahara, and the trans-Saharan extent of the Afro-Asiatic language family is actually one of the better pieces of evidence for this, though mostly at an earlier era than the medieval civilizations you discuss. --JWB (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What happen to the previous map that was available? I could not locate it in wiki commons.Omniposcent (talk) 07:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure which map you're referring to, when was it in the article? --JWB (talk) 07:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Omniposcent, your statements come across completely confused. Please try to make clear what you mean. The map illustrates that Niger-Congo and Khoi-San are purely Sub-Saharan phyla, but that "northeastern Sub-Saharan Africa" (i.e. Horn of Africa plus Southern Sudan) have Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic populations. This goes to show that the Horn of Africa culturally is closer to Saharan Africa than the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Dbachmann I think sir the confusion is on your side. You have made an entirely confused statement. You have introduced an entirely new concept Saharan Africa in relation to Sub-saharan Africa. Let me bring clarity to your unclear mind. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. Would it not be nice to list all sub-saharan countries and then illustrate all the language families in Sub-saharan Africa by putting in those pretty colors.

I see. Reviewing your user page and your contributions ([2]), let me rephrase that to {{Uw-test1}},

Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the sandbox. Thank you.

dab (𒁳) 09:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I thank you for the reference sir. I will refer you to it too but I hope you might not need it. Please sir next time place that message on my personal page. This is the discussion page about Sub-saharan Africa. I hope you know that. We can get confuse sometimes. Omniposcent (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is about sub-saharan Africa, this map would be more appropriate under the article Africa or world distribution of Islam and Christianity. The information in the caption is also wrong. The horn of Africa is predominately Christian and predominantly Othodox, very rare in Africa and a testament to her early adoption of Christianity. Plus the Sahel region in West Africa is predominantly muslim. The Sahel is the exception to the Christian rule in sub-saharan Africa, not the Horn of Africa. Omniposcent (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This article has a problem with vandalism. One is deleting and making fundamental changes and not stating their reasons. Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Please don't remove it again without discussion. Removing it would constitute vandalism. Omniposcent (talk) 18:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the one removing Nubia from the list of kingdoms, but having History of Africa represented by a one-sentence list of medieval kingdoms does not seem representative for an article about a term that is defined by physical geography and mostly used in modern politics and economics. I would vote for dropping the list of kingdoms entirely and just leaving the link to History of Africa; or crafting a history summary that is not so biased towards medieval empires. --JWB (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Nubia was not just medieval sir. Ghana was not just Medieval. Aksum was not just medieveal. In Europe there was just 2 ancient civilizations, Rome and Greece. I hope listing the number of medieval states in Europe is not bias towards her history. There is the racial component to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent (talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Nubia is a historical territory in what is now southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. It is ostensibly not part of Sub-Saharan Africa. If you want to insist, the burden is on you to present a reliable source stating "Nubia is in Sub-Saharan Africa". dab (𒁳) 07:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well sir we have had this discussion. If you read all the other discussions sir, the burden has been met. You have not read it, that is why you are engaging in vandalism. I suspect one of your compatriots have not read it too. Machinations are a two way street. It corrupts the process. Omniposcent (talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

sorry, this is gibberish. What "compatriots"? What "vandalism"? What "machinations"? Incoherent rants do not count as talkpage contributions. Your ejaculations of the sort of "Nubia was not just medieval sir" are completely beside the point. Who has claimed "Nubia" was "medieval"? Feel free to drop the honorific when addressing me and try to make some sense instead. Your "evidence" that "Nubia is sub-Saharan" consist of the hilarious assertion that "Nubia was in Sudan. Southern Sudan is part of Sudan. Southern Sudan is Sub-Saharan. Hence Nubia must be Sub-Saharan". I am sorry, but no semblance of rational dialogue is possible on such a surreal level. Humans are vertebrates. Chickens are vertebrates. Chickens are birds. Hence humans are birds, qed. dab (𒁳) 11:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Northern-centric terminology

I have always found the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" to somewhat Northern-centric and offensive. In what sense is Africa "beneath" Europe ? No-one calls Europe "Sub-Mediterrean Europe" but North at the top of all maps, atlases and globes is entirely arbitrary. I don't regard the people of Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, Malawi etc as 'sub' anything or anywhere. The older terminology was "Black Africa" as opposed to "Arabian Africa", which I think was better. I would like a note to this affect somewhere. What do other people think?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

maybe. If you can find a source making this point, you can mention the term as an example of Eurocentrism at the Eurocentrism article. Then English lexicons has many Eurocentrisms, mostly because English is a European language. You are probably right in assuming that the term is derived from north-oriented maps. Putting north on top is arguably an Eurocentric convention, and a consequence of the historical fact that Early Modern global exploration was a European phenomenon. Of course, there needs to be some orientation of maps, and each choice will be equally arbitrary. The place to discuss this is at Eurocentrism#Cartography. You will also note that the Subarctic is so called not because the Arctic is somehow "better" than the temperate zones, but simply because the Subarctic is to the south of the Arctic. dab (𒁳) 11:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To Sir Paul

I was wondering when Sir Paul would show his head. Sir for the records it's a lot of information but not relevant to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent (talk) 19:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

can you please stop disrupting this article, or else present your concerns in a coherent manner here on this talkpage. dab (𒁳) 11:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To Dbachman

Mr. Dbachman this has been done. All the edit I have done has been explained. You have not read the discussion. You are editing without explaining. You are introducing concept like the sahel is a transition point to subsaharan Africa. The sahel is part of sub-saharan Africa. Your reference is not clear. It does not prove your case. I have removed it.

The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and sub-Saharan Africa.^[2]

You have not explained your edits where you should have, and that's in the rationale box on the history page. Furthermore, the phrase in the article to the effect that "the Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and sub-Saharan Africa" is not only supported by the source, it outright paraphrases it: "Sahil: semiarid region of western and north-central Africa extending from Senegal eastward to The Sudan. It forms a transitional zone between the arid Sahara (desert) to the north and the belt of humid savannas to the south."

Secondly the Horn of Africa is predominantly Orthodox Christian but because of strong muslim presence, I will go with your exception rule of Sub-saharan Africa.

Wrong. The Horn of Africa is predominantly Muslim, and there are countless sources that mention this well-known fact. From p.462 of Essentials Of World Regional Geography by Joseph J. Hobbs, Christopher L. Salter: "The Ethiopian Orthodox Church, closely related to the Coptic faith of Egypt, makes Ethiopia an exception to the otherwise Islamic Horn of Africa region."

But I will add the Sahel, Swahili coast, instead southern Sudan change that to Sudan.

You just tweaked a properly sourced phrase to include unsourced material. The Sahel, Swahili coast, etc. aren't a part of the Arab world, aren't a part of the Arab League, aren't considered an Arab state by UNESCO or by any Arab countries and associations. They are in nowhere near the same boat as North Africa, Sudan and the Horn of Africa, and not one of the seven sources I included support this tweak.

Nubia is a sub-saharan civilization.

No it isn't. Nubia was located in southern Egypt and northern Sudan i.e. precisely in the region north of the Sahara, thereby making it a North African civilization, not a sub-Saharan one.

There is racial component to definition of sub-saharan Africa, not that I accept it. It is part of your traditional mainstream notion of "Black Africa." You are going against tradition. This has been stated before. I am repeating myself. It is sickening to me that some peoples diapers have been paid by these thieving African Dictators and now these people seem to hold a pathological contempt for the African and relish in the downtrodden state of sub-saharan Africa. That is what happens when one steals from ones own people for antoher. Omniposcent (talk) 00:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

?????

I have asked you to cite your sources that "Nubia is sub-Saharan". If you can do that, fine. If you cannot, no amount of arguing here on talk is going to change anything. If there is a "racial component to definition of sub-saharan Africa", you are perfectly free to discuss it, citing your sources. I will thank you if you stop reverting all the other work I've done on the article. I am afraid I cannot take seriously anything you say unless you decide to drop your puerile "culture wars" rhetorics. For your edification, here is a study looking into sub-Saharan genetic influence on Nubian populations. If Nubia itself was sub-Saharan, it could hardly be influenced by sub-Saharan populations. That Nubia has an intermediate position between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa is of course undisputed. dab (𒁳) 06:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Divisions

btw, I have no objection to mentioning the Sahel here. A detailed account of the region will of course belong on Sahel. I do think it is possible to present the Sahel as the northernmost part of Sub-Saharan Africa, no problem. In fact, if we're going to look at subdivisions beyond the West/East/Central/Southern scheme, SSA might be described as consisting of:

• the Sahel
• the Horn of Africa
• the northern savanna (Southern Sudan, southern Chad etc.)
• Equatorial Africa
  • tropical rainforest
  • African Great Lakes/East African Rift
• the southern savanna (Angola, Zambia)
• the steppe or semi-desert of Southern Africa

dab (𒁳) 10:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)