Talk:SU-152

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[edit] SU-152 was specifically built as a tank destroyer

The SU-152 was produced during 1943 as an immediate response to the German Panther tank and Tiger tank

This was removed, to be consistent with the body of the article. But Zaloga directly implies that it's the other way around:

The appearance of the Tiger ... finally forced the NKTP out of its complacency and made it realize that the 76.2mm gun equipping all medium and heavy tanks and light mechanized guns was about to become inadequate. ... What was needed were new long-barrelled tank guns like the German 88mm gun. (Zaloga 1984:164).

This immediately follows with discussion of several different attempts at improving antitank capability of tanks, leading directly to a section headed "Tank destroyers":

The TsKB-2 team under Kotin ... also began a crash programme to develop a tank destroyer version of the KV. ... Prototypes of the KV-14 [to be renamed SU-152] on modified KV-1S chassis, were designed in a record 25 days, and on 7 February, barely a month after the capture of the Tiger, perfunctory trials were completed. ... the first regiment ... was rushed to the Kursk battlefield. ... The SU-152 proved to be one of the few Soviet armoured vehicles that could fight with the new German armour on even terms, and quickly earned the nickname Zvierboy—Animal Hunter for its reputed abilities to kil Tigers, Panthers and Elefants!" (Zaloga 1984:165).

 —Michael Z. 2006-09-11 04:18 Z

SU-152 was specifically built as a heavy assault gun. Zaloga & Company states the common western beliefs from Cold War era, but new Russian books about heavy SPGs, based on declassified information from ChKz and No 100 Factory archives state that fast completion of SU-152 was a result of long work before first capture of a Tiger. The first KV-based SPG vehicle named KV-7 was built in the spring of 1942 and it was already featured the general layout of future KV-14. Summer & autumn of 1942 was a constant research how to mount ML-20 into KV chassis. The order about construction of KV-based heavy SPG "pillbox killer" was issued at November 1942. All preparations were done earlier so the record 25 days were only the final phase of KV-14/SU-152 development. Rush was not in the phase of development, rush were in the phase of series production instead.
Here is a Russian bibliographic description of my sources. All the author names are the honoured Russian experts in Russian armour history. ISBN I'll add later, but it will be problematic to buy this book by Internet - the total printing quantity is 2000 pieces only. The scan of general view of this book on Russian is available here. Ask User:Bukvoed for possible help of translating the text, if my claims seem to you as non-believable.
  • Солянкин А. Г., Павлов М. В., Павлов И. В., Желтов И. Г. Советские тяжёлые самоходные артиллерийские установки 1941-1945 гг. М.: ООО Издательский центр "Экспринт", 2005. - 48 с.
LostArtilleryman 12:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't doubt you, but that still doesn't contradict that after the Tiger was encountered, the Soviets did a spate of antitank research and this vehicle was rushed into service. We need more information (sorry I don't have a more recent Zaloga reference for comparison).  —Michael Z. 2006-09-11 16:15 Z
It seems that the voyage to the library is imminent now for the exact data about orders of State Defense Committee. But I remember the general sense of this order in spring 1943 : make a lot of A-19 heavy field guns (even by reducing the production output of ML-20 gun-howitzers, see the production table by years in featured ru:МЛ-20 article in ruWiki, where I was co-author of the text), adapt 52-K air defense gun for anti-tank usage and begin to develop 100 mm caliber gun on the base of naval B-3 ordnance (BS-3 was the result), also HEAT projectile to 122mm howitzers (such as M-30) was to be developed. There was no mention about any towed or self-propelled 6-inch guns in this order. Rush of SU-152 series production was side effect in relation with order "About strengthening anti-tank capabilities of Red Army artillery and tank troops". The another factor to rush SU-152 production was big plans of 1943 Soviet offensive operations through German fortified positions where "pillbox killers" were in great need. So the statement of rushing SU-152 production due to problems with Tiger has a significant part of incorrectness. This is only part of true. Moreover, some of KV-14 chassis were intented to be refitted with A-19 gun (such operation was done later with ISU chassis in April 1944), greatly reducing SU-152 output if this was implemented. But appearance of SU-85 allowed to keep SU-152 in production because with SU-122 withdrawal from production, SU-152 left the only assault gun available to Red Army in the second part of 1943. LostArtilleryman 04:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elefant v Ferdinand

When comparing Soviet claims for SU-152 kills on the German Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyer versus German recorded losses at Kursk you need to be consistent on the naming of the German vehicle, calling it an Elefant in one sentence and a Ferdinand in the next is just confusing to readers who do not know they are the same vehicle. At the time of Kursk the vehicle was called a Ferdinand, it was later renamed Elefant, so Ferdinand would be more accurate but the names should at least be consistent.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.67.47 (talk • contribs).


A Beast Killer was it really true that an SU-152 took out a Tiger I at 4000 m? ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.243.66 (talk) 11:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)