Talk:Stutthof concentration camp

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Gerdenau: I have no idea what is the real name of this camp and where it is located. It wasn't mentioned here: List of Martyrology Sites in Poland Cautious 12:34, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maybe they confused this: 21) Przebrno (Pröbernau) Cautious 12:37, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Images 2 Jews or Polish activists 3 Soap? 3.1 werner hoppe 4 Deportation of non-nazi Germans 5 Fritz Peters

[edit] Images

I have written a request to the Stutthof Museum, requesting permission for imagesPedant 05:14, 2004 Oct 31 (UTC)

[edit] Jews or Polish activists

According to the Museum, the September 1939 arrestations were oriented against Polish activists in Danzig. What is your source about the Jews? Xx236 11:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soap?

Once again the infomation concerning German production of soap from human fat is introduced into this encyclopedia article with a reference from a magazine article. Virtually all reliable academic sources, and in particular most Jewish Holocaust researchers have debunked this "myth" as being not true. It is necessary to understand the importance of this. It is by no means to "whitewash" the atrocities commitited by the nazis at these camps, but rather to distinguish fact from fiction, so as not to give credence and "ammunition" to deniers of actual atrocities. The external link to the Virtual Jewish Library, following the article about this concentration camp, Stutthof, better explains this position. The claim and its source should be taken out of the article, with the "new Breaking News", staying in tabloids rather than in an encyclopedia. Dr. Dan 16:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, the samples of the soap found have been recently chemically tested, and the tests confirmed that the soap made by Spanner was from human fat. These are scientifically proven facts, not a "tabloid fiction". The investigation concluded in 2006 [1] --Lysy^talk 16:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my assertions, and add that DNA tests excluded human DNA in all presented samples. Believe what you want, but as I stated in my above remarks (as does the Virtual Jewish Library "link"), that presenting this "re-discovered" evidence has more inherent risks than benefits. In this case it doen't help the credibility of the IPN either. Dr. Dan 17:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

And would you have any refs to support your claims? Or is it just an attempt at Holocaust denial?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Funny that the author of Zydokomuna would try to link me with holocaust denial, after a very detailed explanation by me as to what my objection to including this (referenced from a tabloid magazine) information in this article was. The references from the Virtual Jewish Library are available and more respectable than the tygodnik article. Dr. Dan 20:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, please bear with me but I'm not getting your point. The recent 4 year investigation by IPN confirmed that the soap was made of human fat. It has not been officially confirmed until 2006. Why are you doubting it please ? --Lysy^talk 21:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bear with me back. It has been investigated and debunked. Jewish organizations dealing with Holocaust research have backed-off of these claims for the reasons I have stated very succinctly. This Breaking News presented to us from some tabloid doesn't change the reality of the myth and its origins. One should hope that such a revelation should make world-wide news coverage, but it hasn't and isn't about too. Unfortunately the chain of custody would make any claim out of Poland suspect at this point regardless of the evidence compiled by the IPN. Please note that I did not remove the claim, but cautioned those interested in the subject to be careful. People will always believe what they want to anyway. Dr. Dan 21:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You lost me again. Are you calling IPN a "tabloid" ? And what "tygodnik" ? And who and when debunked this ? BTW: I found this press release of October 2006 by Polish Press Agency at the official Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum site. Hope this clarifies it. --Lysy^talk 22:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry you got lost. Seriously, if you re-read my above comments, I stand by them and for now have no intention of changing my opinion based on the information provided. As I have stated, people will believe what they want to regardless of what we say here. I think that pretty much does it for me on the subject. Thanks for the Polish article, it was an interesting read. But it doesn't help anyone who doesn't understand it. And keep in mind these discussions are for the benefit of everyone, not just you and me. Dr. Dan 20:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I had provided two links [2] and [3] (both in Polish, obviously). Hopefully IPN will publish the results of its investigation in English one day. But frankly, that something is not in English does not mean it is less credible. Unlike many other disciplines, history sadly does not use English as its primary language. Most of the historiography of Eastern Europe is not available in English, I'm sure you will agree. --Lysy^talk 20:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but in English Wikipedia, English is the Lingua franca, sadly or not sadly. Dr. Dan 22:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, would you object sources in the Lithuanian language, then ? --Lysy^talk 22:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

By no means, all I want is such references to be translated into English. Does that seem unreasonable? Hmm? Dr. Dan 23:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, the Auschwitz site has an English version of the 'Human Fat Was Used to Produce Soap' page here. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Squiddy, thanks for the translation. It may be of some use to those who are reading this discussion for the first time. I have already read it in Polish, and this Breaking News from October, simply didn't cut it, and make the headlines it should have. The information, the opinions, the new witnesses, et al. are there for the record. Just doesn't cut it though. Thanks anyway. Dr. Dan 01:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Everyone involved here might be interested to know that Wikipedia already has an article devoted to this subject, under Jewish soap legend. That would be a more appropriate place to continue this discussion. An extensive discussion of the IPN report (in English), specifically debating the credibility of IPN, is available here. As for news coverage, the story was reported by AFP ([4]) and DPA ([5]). Balcer 15:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] werner hoppe

The link for Werner Hoppe leads to a different Werner Hoppe than the one from Stutthoff camp. Perhaps someone can look into this.

Thanks, I've changed the link to Werner Hoppe (Stutthof guard), as the Werner Hoppe page is a redirect to members of the Baader-Meinhof gang. The link on this page is now red. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 18:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deportation of non-nazi Germans

Günter Grass seems to say in his latest book that Germans from Danzig that got arrested for anti-nazi behaviours (such as listening to British radio, showing "degenerate art" to students, being a socialist, doubting the successes of the German armies...) were sent to Stutthof. Is this correct? If so, the article should note it. David.Monniaux (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fritz Peters

Fritz Peters (one of the Stutthof officials who is listed as having been executed in the second trial) currently links to a Frederick Thornton Peters who was a Canadian recipient of the Victoria Cross. Perhaps someone could have a look at this? (Wandora (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC))