Talk:Sturmgeschütz III

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[edit] Continuous modifications & usage as 'tank destroyer'

We've been changing one of the leading sentences back and forth.

"It was built on the chassis of the Panzer III tank. Initially intended as a mobile, armoured light gun for infantry support, the StuG was continually modified and was widely employed as a tank destroyer"

The previous edit implied that it was modified until 1942 at which point it became widely used as a tank destroyer. Neither the previous version nor the current one is perfect.... and this can still be improved. My objections to the previous version are:

a) Stugs were used in the antiarmor role before 1942.

b) Stugs continued to be modified with different features long after 1942. For example, the late 1944/early 45 Stugs are very different from those produced in 1943.

c) We might want to avoid the term 'tank destroyer' altogether since it is a US term that might imply US doctrine for these types of vehicles.

So maybe we can work together to come up with a sentence that captures all the meanings we intend. Certainly the fitting of the longer 75mm in 1942 made it more effective in the antiarmor role, but that's not really what the lead paragraph says (yet)....DMorpheus 20:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 75 l43/l48 weren't especially high velocity

So I changed the line "After the Germans encountered the Soviet T-34, the StuG III were armed with the high-velocity 75 mm StuK 40 L/43 (Spring 1942) or 75 mm L/48 (Autumn 1942) anti-tank gun." to "higher-velocity", since the L/43s and L/48s were pretty average in terms of antitank guns. Compare to the 75 L/70 which was a truly high-velocity gun. SenorBeef 13:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

They may have had average muzzle velocity but were far above average in performance for their caliber. Compared to US or Soviet guns of the same or similar caliber they performed better. The current text sort of mixes two distinct things together; I suspect the original author meant that the longer guns were more effective, which they certainly were. DMorpheus 17:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
"...average muzzle velocity?" What does that mean? Average as opposed to what? Please explain. "...far above average in performance for their caliber?" Your statement clearly indicates that the gun in question demonstrated a performance that violates the laws of physics. Did this weapon fire a magic bullet? Please explain. Thank you. 14thArmored 2000 Hours 11 December 2006
In comparison to the old /L24 gun the L/43 and L/48 were high velocity guns. That's all that statement intended to say. --Denniss 01:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
You need to read DMorpheus' statement more carefully. His point is quite clear, and it is that the weapon "had an average muzzle velocity," and was "far above average in performance for their caliber." If you know anything about ballistics, you will understand that these two things are mutually exclusive in a weapon of this type unless there is some other scientific explanation, which in this case, there is not. Let's just wait and see if DMorpheus manages a cogent and convincing reply to my questions. 14thArmored 2000 Hours 12 December 2006
The muzzle velocity on the KwK 40 for standard ABCBC-HE was 770 M/S. Certainly faster than infantry guns, but not "high speed" relative to the higher-end tank guns. The KwK 42 has a MV of 920-950 M/S, a significant difference. The KwK 40 is closer to the F-34 gun of the T-34 tank than the KwK 40. So, really, it's medium-high velocity, relative to other guns. To revert what I wrote was pretty anal - the point of the the language was to indicate that the new gun had a higher velocity on its shells, which "higher-velocity" certainly conveys. SenorBeef 08:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Could I suggest that mundane editorial disagreements are most likely to resolve quickly and productively when editors observe the following:

  • Remain polite per WP:Civility.
  • Solicit feedback and ask questions.
  • Keep the discussion focused. Concentrate on a small set of related matters and resolve them to the satisfaction of all parties.
  • Focus on the subject rather than on the personalities of the editors.

Thanks! DMorpheus 20:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Asking you to justify your statements is not uncivil. However, it is uncivil and intellectually dishonest when you avoid answering honest, straight-forward questions about your statements. Please answer my questions, and stop crying wolf about being attacked or treated without civility. 14thArmored 2006 Hours 11 December 2006

[edit] Finnish StuGs

Thirty Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung G assault guns (Ps 531-1 to 30) arrived in late spring 1943. This was according to contract #1189 with Germany (that stipulated a delivery of 45 tanks). They arrived in Pori in three shipments: 6 July (10), 13 August (8) and 3 September 1943 (12). The purchase was not presented to the Ministry Committee until 8 October 1943. The Stu 40 assault guns were new production vehicles with standard German equipment. They were produced at Alkett (Altmärkische Kettenwek GmbH) in Berlin (10) and at MIAG (Mühlenbau und Industrie AG) in Braunschweig (19). The hull of one assault gun was manufactured by MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg) to the PzKpfw III Ausf. M specification. The assault guns delivered in 1944 (Ps 531-31 to 59) were Sturmgeschütz III Ausf. G models. The reason for the new designation was that a new assault gun based on the PzKpfw IV entered production at the beginning of the year. So to tell the two assault guns apart, the hull designation (III or IV) was added. A total of 29 StuG III Asuf. G assault guns were delivered to Finland before the German arms aid finally was canceled. These last guns arrived in five batches on 29 June (5), 2 July (7), 6 July (3), 3 August (6) and 6 August (8). More assault guns were on their way but returned when the armistice begun. --MoRsE 23:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It started as StuG III and ended as StuG III, Sturmgeschütz 40 was just something like a nickname because of the longer Sturmkanone 40 it used from Ausf. F onwards but it was rarely used in official documents. The StuG IV was never called StuG 40. What is a Stu 40K ? --Denniss 23:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The names changed during production and it was not until after the introduction of the StuG IV, when the "III" part was introduced for earlier models:
Sturmgeschütz Ausführung A
Known as StuG III Ausf. A after January 1944.
Sturmgeschütz Ausführung B
Sturmgeschütz Ausführung C
Sturmgeschütz Ausführung D
Sturmgeschütz Ausführung E
Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung F
Armed with a 7.5 cm StuK 40 L/43 or L/48. The "40" part started to appear when the new long barrel gun was introduced.
Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung F/8
Armed with a 7.5 cm StuK L/48
Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung G
Sturmgeschütz III Ausführung G
"Stu 40" was changed into "StuG III" when the new StuG IV (based on the PzKpfw IV chassis was introduced in January 1944. Subsequently the different models were known as StuG IIIs and IVs
Sturmhaubitze 42 Ausführung G
Abbrevated as "10.5 cm StuH 42 Ausf. G"
Sturmgeschütz IV
Abbrevated as "StuG IV", please observe that no "Ausführung" was used for this model

--MoRsE 06:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remote-control MG mount

Hello from Germany here! I've heard about remote controlled machine guns on different SPGs by now, including at least the Hetzer and I was wondering if that's one of those in the picture. 84.134.244.141 (talk) 04:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)MrCuda

Yes, the mounting was the same as the one on the jagdpanzer 38(t). DMorpheus (talk) 15:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. May I ask why there's no mention of it in the article then? I think it's rather interesting to know that they had remote controlled MGs for their SPGs back then. 84.134.220.135 (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)MrCuda
Why not add it yourself? FYI, not *all* Stugs had the remote-control MG, only very late models of the Stug-III and Stug-IV. Even today remote-control machinegun mounts are rare. There's one on the US Stryker - the RWS or 'Remote weapons station' includes a bunch of capabilities including the remote-control firing of the weapon. DMorpheus (talk) 17:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess I could but I don't want to interfere with the work of the article's author. :> Plus I don't have any proper information about it right now. Anyway, I didn't mean it like that. I was just surprised to see a version with the RC on the page and couldn't find anything in the article itself and thus asked about it. FYI, I'm well aware that it wasn't the usual equipment for every StuG out there ;) 84.134.220.135 (talk) 18:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)MrCuda