Talk:Sturmabteilung

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    Put your text for the new page here. I'm trying to find information on a Dr Oskar Heymann who was an early member of the SA and also on a Dipl.hort. Max Muller of Schweizarei Seehof Bamberg. I recently received documents on both these individuals and am trying to find anything on them. Thanks for any help you may give.

    Gary Nichols----gnic231432@earthlink.net

    Contents

    [edit] Date conflict?

    The list of leaders states that Emil Maurice was the leader of the Sturmabteilung from 1920 to 1921. But the text says that the group was formed by Hitler in 1921. Is this correct? If so, it should be addressed in the text somehow. Tablesaw 19:33, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

    The page on Ernst_R�hm states "At the end of the war, Roehm founded the "Freikorps", a right-wing militia, in Munich. In 1920, he became an Nazi-party member and the Freikorps became Hitler's Brownshirts - the Sturmabteilung (SA)." The information on this page appears to be incorrect. Refer [1]. - porge 06:56, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Stormtroopers not just Sturmabteilung

    There is something wrong with the links. I followed link to stormtroopers from trench warfare, and i don't want to know about SA, but about German tactics to break defenses in WWI ...Szopen 09:59, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

    Hello, I am not sure about the common english translation of "Sturmabteilung" and "Sturmtruppen", since I am not a native speaker. But I know for sure, that in german these two words have distinct meanings. The first is described in the article, the second is a form of infantry (a real military unit, not paramiliary). So I think the redirect from Stormtropper to Sturmabteilung is wrong.

    I've made Stormtrooper a disambiguation page. We now need an article – or a link to an existing article – on Strumtruppen and/or stormtroops in general. –Hajor 22:38, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

    I don't know German, but I do know that the differences between the Storm-troopers of the Germany army (in both World Wars) and the Storm-troopers of the Nazi party are two different organizations/concepts, and so should have two different pages. They could reference each other, but there is reason (that I see) to combine them.

    The real trouble is that the English translation "Storm-trooper" or "Stormtrooper" is a total misnomer. "Sturmabteilung" should never have been translated that way in first place. The word "Abteilung" in military usage is translated as "detachment" or "detail". So, "storm detachment" would have been much nearer the mark. But, I guess, "trooper" sounds so much tougher, and so much closer to what the average German is imagined to be like. "Abteilung" is a much more neutral term than is thought, every private commercial company or firm has various "Abteilungen", or "departments", "sections", or "divisions".
    So, I am afraid, we as English-speakers have got ourselves into a bit of of a
    blind alley, out of which we are unable to escape, unless we totally re-translate the word "Sturmabteilung" radically. Dieter Simon 00:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
    Strumatbielung and Stoormtrooper should not be merged - SA in English is used almost exclusively to refer to the the Nazi organisation, not to Stormtroopers in genreal. Sturmtruppen can be kept for this, at least in English Wikipedia, the German Wikipedia can follow the correct German practice. Phil alias Harry 02:54, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
    WW1 shock troopers were referred to as "Stoßtruppen", not "Sturmtruppen" anyway, which is why I prefer to refer to them as "'Shock' troopers", though "storm", "assault", "blitz" and "shock attack" are all sort of synonymous so naturally these can all be prefixes to "troop(er)". D Boland (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Pronunciation

    Just a minor thing, really. I pronounce it as Stur-mab-tay-lung. I usually can't pronounce new words properly until I've heard them, so its probably incorrect.

    Remembering my German rules of pronunciation, it should be sturm-ab-tie-lung. --oknazevad 04:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    The first one is correct. Andreas 09:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    I agree with Andreas: sturm-ab-tie-lung like "mile" or "tile", not "fail" or "sail", to put it in other words. Dieter Simon 01:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
    Äh, well: the pronunciation of the ogg file sounds strange to me: I can't hear the N in the "ng" sound. Is it just me?--217.227.44.104 14:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
    The above spellings are reasonable, but don't forget that, in German, ST at the beginning of a word is pronounced "SHT". I also corrected the mistranslation of 'abteilung' from 'division' to 'detachment' -- it was used in the German armed forces as 'battalion' during WW2. CsikosLo (talk) 19:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Blackshirts

    So what were blackshirts? The SS or an Italian Fascist militia? This article makes both claims. The blackshirts article claims the latter. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 21:24, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) Never mind. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 21:25, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Following the Night of the Long Knives

    What happened to the SA after the Night of the Long Knives and during World War II ? What did all it's members do, and what was it's organizational role? Who joined it?

    • The article doesn't really say too much. - Matthew238 23:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    What would you want added, what is missing, Matthew238? Dieter Simon 01:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm also interested in this. Following the night of the long knives did most rank and file SA members leave the organisation? Or did they still maintain a huge membership? I know that the SS became much more important after the night of the long knives but the SA hardly ever get a mention after this event. It would be great if someone could expand on what they did during the war, membership numbers etc. If indeed anyone knows these details. --Wikipediatastic 15:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Me three. I mean, what did these hundreds of thousands of guys do after the Night of the Long Knives? Join the SS or the Army, or were they generally middle-aged by the time the war broke out? I think if nothing else it would shed some light onto the sociology of National Socialism, and discrepancies between stereotyped images of street-brawling thugs and aristocratic SS officers (which often get conflated into a generalized stereotype of "Nazis"). Also I think it would clarify why some people like to defend the socialistic origins of Hitler's movement, and how that argument has a certain amount of validity.Historian932 (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Brownshirts

    I think this article should be moved to brownshirts as that is how they are usually described in English. Also the term stormtrooper should be dropped as that word has a specific meaning in English (see the article on stormtrooper) --Philip Baird Shearer 01:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

    Google:

    • about 31,400 English pages for brownshirts SA -wikipedia
    • about 28,900 English pages for brownshirts SA -Sturmabteilung -wikipedia
    • about 16,000 English pages for Sturmabteilung SA -wikipedia
    • about 13,400 English pages for -brownshirts SA Sturmabteilung -wikipedia

    So there are about 3,000 articles with both words in them and brownshirts is about twice as common as Sturmabteilung --Philip Baird Shearer 01:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

    Brownshirts is a "nickname" for the SA given by English sources. It also can refers to any member of the Nazi Party. I totally oppose such a move. Also, even without checking, I am sure that violates several portions of the Wikipedia naming conventions. -Husnock 03:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
    I would also oppose such a move. The correct name is Sturmabteilung, and the nickname (both in English and German) was brownshirts (Braunhemden). Andreas 09:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    Oppose per Husnock - redirects are all that are needed. Ck lostsword|queta! 16:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
    Oppose, too, "brownshirts" was a nickname. Dieter Simon 01:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Röhm a Homosexual?

    While reading the article, I had stumbled upon this in the History section: :"Röhm was unpopular in the party because others saw his ambition as threatening their own, and because he was a homosexual." Although I was slightly amused by the "and because he was a homosexual" statement, unless there is a verifiable source for this, it should be removed. 68.106.55.187 01:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC) Ahh, I guess I'm wrong. :) -- 68.106.55.187 06:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

    "After Hitler had spoken for some time the meeting erupted into a free-for-all in which a small company of Ordnertruppen distinguished itself by thrashing the opposition" does that mean thrashing as in beating up or thrashing as in throughly out-arguing?

    [edit] difference between this and Stormtroopers

    According to the article, Sturmabteilung gets frequently translated as stormtroopers. Is there a legitimate difference between the two, as the stormtrooper article seems to be about World War I, and does this merit a {{Distinguish}} ("not to be confused with...") tag on each page or maybe even a merge if these are, in fact, similar things? Valley2city 17:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

    See Talk:Sturmabteilung#Stormtroopers_not_just_Sturmabteilung Rchan89 01:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Excusing Hitler

    I've been intently working on the article Night of the Long Knives, and some of its ancillary articles. As I initially found them, these articles seemed to share a common myth: that Hitler was hoodwinked by others in the party, including Göring, Himmler, and Heydrich, into believing that Röhm was planning a putsch against him, and that Hitler only very reluctantly ordered Röhm's arrest and death.

    This is most emphatically not the case. Hitler was an shrewd political operator. He gained control of the movement, kept control of it during his time in prison, and used it to seize absolute power in Germany by remorselessly calculating the usefulness of his subordinates, and had no compunction about eliminating them if they had become a hindrance to him.

    This is precisely what he did in ordering the purge that became known as the Night of the Long Knives. Röhm and the SA were very useful to Hitler during the years of his ascent because they could be counted on to terrorize political opponents. Because of that, Hitler tolerated the notorious reputation of the SA and its leadership for drinking and brawling. He also therefore tolerated Röhm's homosexuality.

    One Hitler had seized power, however, there was no longer a need for a private militia that could smash up political meetings. He now had the full apparatus of the modern state, including the police forces, jails, and concentration camps to take care of that.

    Röhm and the SA had outlived their usefulness to Hitler. That alone might not have resulted in a purge. However, Röhm's politics and especially his insistence that the SA supplant the Reichswehr was direct threat to the traditional army, including Hindenburg. By 1934, Blomberg, Hindenburg, and the rest of the army leadership made it clear to Hitler that if Röhm and the SA were not immediately brought to heel, they would declare martial law.

    Once Hitler knew he had to act, he did so relentlessly. Hitler ordered Himmler and the rest to fabricate evidence implicating that Röhm was involved in a plot, so that he could later show this "evidence" to a grateful nation. It is very similar to Hitler's modus operandi when he fabricated evidence of a Polish raid on Germany, in order to create a pretext for the invasion of Poland.

    Every serious history of the era, by reputable historians, agree on this: Hitler wanted Röhm eliminated because he was a threat to the army and, to a lesser extent, the Nazi's principle supporters among the wealthy and the middle classes. Hitler did not reluctantly order the purge because other Nazis had fooled him. Let's get our facts straight. --Mcattell 17:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


    [edit] No mention of homosexuality?

    Perhaps there should be mention of the large role homosexuality played in the SA, especially as it pertained to the leaders and the Night of the Long Knives?

    I agree, I think this is an important point as it very much changed the course of the SAMantion 22:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

    WE can't do that "every one knows" gays are only progressive lefty liberals they can't be hardened criminal psychopathic thugs, it would ruin their nails, after all this is 2007 and we are so clever, 3. that would at once ruin the dogma of stereotypes presented by the left and right, gay and anti-gay, tolerant and intolerant factions of western politics (G8 nations) in their delusional crock of dung.--Xaoskeller (talk) 11:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Power Shift

    In the section of the article devoted to Conflicts with other Organizations, the tone suggests that Hitler achieved his early positions in government through less than democratic means. In one case the wording is that Hitler "took power," and another has him "seizing" power. This is somewhat misleading, since unlike many dictators, Hitler was elected, and was in fact the head of a political party. The elections in question would hardly have met the criteria for fairness or legitimacy, but one of the noteworthy (and frightening) aspects of Nazism is that the German voters were all too willing to elect Hitler. He didn't have to park tanks in front of the government offices and announce that he was in charge (and he didn't have tanks or a military that could have staged such a coup anyway). Again, there's no question that many if not most Germans quickly realized that the election was dubious and that Hitler had no intention of maintaining any semblance of representative democracy. But in the beginning at least, it's not entirely correct to suggest that there was a seizure of power. C d h 12:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Not clear about what the SA did

    Im was hoping to use this article to help me with some school work, but whilst reading it, it hardly helped me with what the SA actually did. I ended up going to my libary for the first time ever! Just thought people might want to know, seeing as mine is a first hand opinion with only a little information about the SA.--82.9.116.89 17:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Grp181t.jpg

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    BetacommandBot 22:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Conflicts with other organizations

    "The SA were more radical than the SS, with its leaders arguing the Nazi revolution had not ended when Hitler achieved power, but rather needed to implement socialism in Germany. Despite its sympathy for its own brand of socialism, the SA would often pick street fights with Communists and Social Democrats."

    Incoherent. National socialism is a form of socialism. The SA might have had a different practical application of socialism than the rest of the NSDAP, this point isn't touched upon, but to insinuate that the SA was targeted due to it being socialist is nonsensical.