Talk:Stuart Sutcliffe/Archive 1

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[edit] Hofner President?

IMDB trivia cites Sutcliffe's Hofner President as apocryphal(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106339/trivia). Gaberlunzie

What is your point? The article you refer to says "In the film, Stephen Dorff as Sutcliffe played a Hofner President Bass with chrome humbucker pick-ups. In real life, Stuart Sutcliffe played one with wood single coil pick-ups." So he had single coil pick ups, not chrome humbucker ones? Is this important? Paul B 12:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moptop hairstyle

Sutcliffe was not the first member of The Beatles to have this haircut, it was John and Paul. Jurgen Volmer states in The Beatles Off The Record by Keith Badman: "I was combing my hair forward as an act against the bourgeois horrors in Hamburg. The barbers there always cut it too short, so I cut my own hair, but I never did anyone else's. So when John and Paul came to Paris I gave them this haircut. It was their idea to to have it the same as mine". Sutcliffe copied John and Paul. Vera, Chuck & Dave 17:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sometimes refered to as Fifth Beatle"?

He Was the fifth Beatle, no sometimes about it! Vera, Chuck & Dave 20:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Several other people have also been called that. See Fifth Beatle. Paul B 23:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I understand what your'e saying Paul, but this fifth Beatle nonsense is exactly that: media nonsense. There was only one fifth Beatle, and his name was Stu Sutcliffe. Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't alter the fact that he is sometimes referred to by that label, and that other people are also sometimes so-called. We can't just insist that one usage is right and the others wrong. Paul B 15:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes we can, when one usage IS right and the others ARE wrong, as is the case here. Vidor 06:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
They aren't wrong, because the word is not used with the literal meaning of "fifth member of the on-stage performers", they are just uses of the label to imply an extra people who contributed to the group. If it were being used literally, it wouldn't even be true, since Sutcliffe was not the "fifth" person to join the group. He became a member before Pete Best, and obviously before Ringo, yet no one refers to Ringo as the "sixth Beatle" do they? Paul B 13:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Uhh.. listen to this: Sutcliffe was actually the THIRD Beatle, because he created the name with Lennon and Harrison hadn't joined yet. So here it goes: 1st/Lennon, 2nd/McCartney, 3rd/Sutcliffe 4th/Harrison, 5th/Best, 6th/Starr, 7th/Preston. This is based on historical accuracy and my own biased POV. If dissatisfied please feel free to slap me to death with a wet fish... :) andreasegde 03:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If you wanna get reeeally anal about it, what about the guy (can't remember his name) that filled in for Ringo who had to have his tonsils out in Hong Kong and the start of the Australian tour? It was about a week or two I think. TECHNICALLY he would be the 7th Beatle and Billy Preston would be the 8th... although I've often heard Sir George Martin referred to as the 5th Beatle so what's the go there huh?

In any case, I don't think this "often referred to as 'the fifth Beatle' " business adds anything of value to the article, and I'm going to delete it. TheScotch 06:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sexuality

Weren;t ther rumours that he and John had sex together in the early sixties/late fifties? I think the reference is in Goldman's book. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peterkeith99 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

That is the only place these "rumours" seem to appear, and Goldman's book has been denounced time and again by people who knew John Lennon, up to and including Paul McCartney, who would have known if anyone knew. (This despite Goldman's portrayal of McCartney as the only real talent in the Beatles.) Zephyrad 04:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 500/5 or President bass?

Why is the model of the guitar being changed? The reference identifies it as a President and Klaus Voorman signed the authentication statement. surely he of all people, would know which model Sutcliffe had? Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 02:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

hi there. i've got a 1959 500/5 bass so consider myself a bit of an expert/geek on these things. it's true that this model evolved into the similar-looking (and much more popular) president, but the president bass didn't come out until the early 1960s and had different pickups and slightly altered styling.

there are many internet links to verify these facts. http://vintagehofner.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/basses/bas18.html http://www.recmusicbeatles.com/public/files/bbs/bass-player.html (interview with paul mccartney) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/hofner/collect/col9.html

these are just three such links. try doing a google search for "hofner 500/5" if you want more. the link in the article to the auction site merely demonstrates that auctioneers are not guitar experts! if you'd like more info about this please visit http://ccgi.harrisonwass.plus.com/sms/index.php

In 1959 in Europe only, this model was known as the 500/5-President Bass.Hofner's web site I've amended the article accordingly Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Work

I have started to work on this, but it might seem a bit messy at first, as I'm just throwing sentences and references in.andreasegde 03:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I have put it up for GA, but I will work on extra refs today, and tomorrow. andreasegde 08:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm reviewing it for GA, and these are the problems so far:
  1. Sutcliffe was born at the Simpson Memorial Maternity Pavilion Hospital in 1940, in Edinburgh, Scotland, and was brought up in the St Johns area of Huyton, Merseyside in England. He attended the Prescot Grammar School, and was the son of a schoolteacher. Needs to be referenced
  2. ...and was a cold, unwelcoming place, with bare lightbulbs, dirty floorboards and a mattress on the floor in the corner. Seems to be unneccessary/trivial.
  3. Sutcliffe's playing style was elementary, mostly sticking to root notes of chords. Needs to be referenced.
  4. Bill Harry, founder and editor of the Mersey Beat newspaper, has said that Sutcliffe was a competent, although not brilliant, bassist, and that accounts of his musical ineptitude were exaggerated. Needs to be referenced.
  5. George Harrison was later sent back to England for being under-age, and McCartney and Best for attempted arson at the Bambi Kino, which left Lennon and Sutcliffe in Hamburg. Needs to be referenced.
  6. Because of the limitations of medical knowledge at that time, it has never been known for certain what caused the brain haemorrhage that took Sutcliffe's life. It was long believed that the cause was an earlier head injury; likely sustained outside the Litherland Town Hall in Liverpool in an attack by local roughs, after a live performance sometime in 1961. According to accounts by Kirchherr, former manager Allan Williams, the other Beatles and many close associates, Lennon and Pete Best came to Sutcliffe's aid, fighting off his attackers and taking him to safety. Arriving home, Sutcliffe refused medical attention, only seeing a doctor months later in Germany, when he began having severe headaches, and acute sensitivity to light. Kirchherr said later that some of the headaches left Sutcliffe temporarily blind.

Comment: Took out a lot of Pauline's statement, and added a new piece about how Sutcliffe used to get beaten up in Liverpool with a reference.

From subsequent reviews of Sutcliffe's symptoms and advancements in the study of neurovascular afflictions, it has been suggested that the cause of death was arteriovenous malformation, an hereditary condition.

Whole section needs to be referenced.

  1. As an artist, Sutcliffe displayed considerable talent from an early age. Needs to be referenced or deleted.

If this is too big to do, then maybe this should be failed and then nominated at a later date. Hanuab 09:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

To say that something as bland as saying that Sutcliffe displayed considerable talent needs to be referenced is silly. No one disputes it. Paul B 10:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Much of the stuff about Pauline, Goldman etc was referenced at earlier stages but has been deleted over time. You could probably retrieve it. I don't have time now. Paul B 14:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review work

I will get to work on it. I didn't expect it to be reviewed so quickly, though! andreasegde 14:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I have referenced the bits that were needed (and have added some pertinent info) and have taken out/condensed/put in references for a lot of the accusations.andreasegde 15:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The lead contains two one sentence "paragraphs," could you possibly merge the entire lead into two decently sized paragraphs? M3tal H3ad 13:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I have messed about with it a bit. egde 18:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

The GA reviewer who placed the article on hold hasn't come back. Since you've addressed the concerns, I'm passing the article.

There are a few niggles remaining, which would need to be addressed before an FAC (besides a good copyeditor by a skilled editor) -

  • The death section should probably start with Sutcliffe dying, and then mention The Beatles being told about it. At the moment it's as though his death is less important than Astrid telling the boys about it :)

Y Done I changed it. egde 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The sources used are rather narrow. It would be nice to see some other books cited other than just Spitz, Cnythia and Miles. Put "Beatle books" on your Birthday/Christmas list Andrew!

Y Done I have other books, but I was told that too many citations is an overload. Christmas? I can't wait that long! My birthday is in December as well.... Bugger. If I could work out how to use a bank card on Amazon I'd buy a lot more. I'll have to wait until June when I will be in London with Steel class.egde 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  • We have 5 fair use images, which is a touch on the excessive side.

Y Done I have taken one out. egde 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Overall however, this is a very good article and without doubt in my mind worthy of the GA badge. --kingboyk 21:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I thank you, which means I have Y Done it. egde 22:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AFTER SUTCLIFFE LEFT, he lent his bass to Paul until Paul could afford to get his own

"After Sutcliffe left The Beatles, he lent McCartney his President bass until the latter could earn enough money to buy a bass guitar of his own."

The statement cannot be quite accurate.

Here is a photo of Stuart holding his President and Paul playing his 500/1 violin bass. http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd154/gregfeo/3.jpg

And here is one, probably from the same session, where Paul is playing the piano, Stuart is playing his President, and Paul's bass can be seen in it's case, leaning against the piano. http://www.minidrums.com/honey/electric/hofner/president/sutcliffe_band.jpg

Whilst the reference to Miles is probably correct (I don't have the book), these things are often based on memory and are not necessarily factually accurate.

More likely Paul occasionally used Sutcliffe's guitar until Paul's was delivered (it wasn't an off-the-shelf lefthand model, it had to be ordered and made for Paul. A fact that Paul even today remembers incorrectly.). There must have been a changeover period during which Sutcliffe still played whilst the Beatles modified their arrangements to suit the new lineup. 213.173.165.130 (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It is accurate because Sutcliffe would often turn up after leaving and sit in with them, hence them all being together on stage in the piccys. Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)