Talk:Stuart Sutcliffe

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	Stuart Sutcliffe has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
May 13, 2007 Good article nominee Listed

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[edit] Sexual relationship and Alleged Kicking By Lennon

This is a very good article and appears extranordinarily well researched so I am not adding anything to it at the moment but there is an interview in the Nov. 27, 2007 East Hampton Star with his sister Pauline Sutcliffe. It includes some quotes and other stuff that would be useful in the article. Of particular note are these two paragraphs which discuss a possible sexual relationship between Lennon and Sutcliffe and the possibility of that Lennon may have kicked Sutcliffe in head. It also quotes a letter from Sutcliffe discussing that he homosexuals were attracted to him. Both of those issues should probably be incorporated in the article (if only to debunk them).

Around the time of her move, her second book, “Stuart Sutcliffe & His Lonely Hearts Club,” came out in England. It revived rumors of a homosexual relationship between Lennon and Sutcliffe, and it put the blame for her brother’s death on a beating Lennon supposedly gave Sutcliffe 11 months before his death in 1962. “Stuart said John kicked him in the head, and I’m convinced that kick was what eventually led to Stuart’s death,” Ms. Sutcliffe wrote.

The media frenzy that ensued after the book’s publication dismayed Ms. Sutcliffe, who said that both allegations — homosexuality and Lennon’s having a murderous temper — were unfair. “I didn’t throw out these two themes,” she said. “They were extrapolated out by the media. I think I’m quite sophisticated, but, boy, was I naive.”

Americasroof 15:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The woman wanted to sell a book, and her publishers thought it would be good to add some new material; they make more money that way. If you want to add it you should but put it under a section called "Pauline Sutcliffe" (near the end) and not in the main article. Good on you that you saw that and brought it up, BTW. Good stuff.--andreasegde (talk) 02:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: "It also quotes a letter from Sutcliffe discussing that he homosexuals were attracted to him.":

Being the object of homosexual attraction is very different from being the subject of homosexual attraction. The article as it currently reads strongly suggests that Pauline thinks the passage in the letter quoted is clear evidence that Sutcliffe had homosexual tendencies, when in fact it is not at all evidence of this nor does it logically imply it in anyway. I charge this section of the article as it currently stands with malicious rumor-mongering. TheScotch (talk) 08:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole Pauline section needs to be formatted properly (book in references and correct page references). At the moment it is far too long, and the quotes need to be formatted and cut down. It is sensationalist, and could be construed as partly POV by a reader. At best it is a short paragraph. If nobody else does it, I will.--andreasegde (talk) 12:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If his sister who has control of his property and papers makes those claims, they are significant. I was only following the suggestion made in talk. I personally feel that they should be incorporated into the main body of the article. The way it is structured now, it would seem that the article is being driven by attempts to sanitize his biography and make it p.c. Americasroof (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

His music and Art (probably not in that order) were when he was living, and then came his death; sadly. Pauline Sutcliffe's book was published in 2001, so should be at the end. See Mal Evans for the claims that someone had found his suitcase. Pauline's claims (at the moment) don't look good, as she herself said: "They were extrapolated [to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture] out by the media. I think I’m quite sophisticated, but, boy, was I naive". The whole section is shaky because of this statement. She can believe what she wants, but saying Lennon stood over Sutcliffe before running away (while Sutcliffe was presumably half-concious) is a fantasy, as no other witnesses were there and Sutcliffe could never have written/told her about it; nor does she claim he ever did. She even said, "In my heart I know", which is POV of the highest order. As Richard Nixon once said, "It's always the lie that gets you".--andreasegde (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, I have already deleted the standing over Sutcliffe and then running away sentence.--andreasegde (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PPS, I think the section should be cleaned and fully verified before it is put into the body of the article, otherwise all of Heather Mills's claims about Paul McCartney and broken wine glasses, shouting, letting her crawl to the bathroom, etc.. (ad nauseum) would also be put in McCartney's article.--andreasegde (talk) 13:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

McCartney comes under WP:BLP guidelines. Sutcliffe does not. There are also notability issues. Like it or not Sutcliffe's notability is depends on his relationship to Lennon at least as much as his own achievements, so material about that link is relevant. Paul B (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the whole thing depends on it being verified, and not on Pauline Sutcliffe's "feelings".--andreasegde (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm o.k. with the changes and I do understand the logic for keeping it separate. I thought from your earlier posting you were going to make bigger cuts. Americasroof (talk) 14:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Wot, me with a pair of scissors? No, I like to put stuff in with all those lovely references, yum, yum. :)) Anyway (serious mode) It has to be in the article because she published a book about it, and I think where it is now leaves the reader to decide, which is always the best. I'm glad we agree, BTW. :)--andreasegde (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, The long quote by Sutcliffe is interesting, as the things he said about how he felt have been overlooked before.--andreasegde (talk) 17:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sutcliffe and Lennon - again

As has been well reported, the whole group 'lived in each others pockets' during their time in Hamburg with Sutcliffe; living in squalid rooms that had no privacy. As there were also so many girls (call them what you will) who were willing to have sex with the group, where did Sutcliffe and Lennon find the place, or the time? Not one of the others has ever said anything about it (not even Pete Best who surely has an axe to grind). McCartney was jealous of Lennon's friendship with Sutcliffe, but that's about it.--andreasegde (talk) 14:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, "Among the papers she presented was a a letter from Sutcliffe to his mother saying that both men and women were attracted to him". Good grief, who would write that to their mother? --andreasegde (talk) 09:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

Any edit made without a verifiable reference will be deleted, including edits that are slipped into referenced sentences, BTW. --andreasegde (talk) 02:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)