Talk:Stone Tape

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[edit] Terrible

This page contains no real information; is there anything more to this, can more sources be given, can WHO makes these claims be cited, and should this even be a seperate page from whatever article talks about proposed explanations for ghost sitings, if such a page exists? Titanium Dragon 10:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prod?

This article has no references, and looks like a prime deletion candidate. Antelan ^talk 17:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The hypothesis didn't just originate in the 1970s, it was taken from the 1972 British play The Stone Tape by Nigel Kneale. It's the explanation for the haunted house in the play. Don't you guys ever watch X-Files? : ) This is the same idea used in the episode about "The Lazarus Bowl". [1] Supposedly a potter was making a clay bowl nearby when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, and the words were embedded in grooves on the bowl similar to a record. The bowl subsequently had the power to raise the dead and create zombies.

Here's some background information that talks about the overall "Stone Tape" theory, and the idea that ancient pottery contained sound recordings, from a science perspective. It's very comprehensive -- and should in my opinion be considered reliable -- but unfortunately is a blog entry and thus a self-published source.

Per ScienceApologist's request, I'm drumming up some sources that aren't self-published. I'll fix up the article soon, I'm just a little busy at the moment. --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 20:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, after reading that it looks like this may be more of a notable hoax than non-notable nonsense. How did I miss that episode of the X-files??? Antelan ^talk 20:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, not a hoax really, but an idea to explain ghost stories, borrowed from a play which may have gotten the idea off a discussion in science journals during the late 60s. The hoax is a modern-day Internet hoax concerning a specific bogus piece of pottery, while the idea that "psychic impressions" may be recorded in the environment (not necessarily in stone itself) dates back much further.

To understand the idea you'd have to understand the need for the idea. Most ghost stories envision a ghost as the soul of a departed person. This doesn't really make sense though when you think of what people say they actually saw. For example, "I was walking along a back alley in London one night when from around the corner came an 18th century carriage drawn by a team of horses. The passengers on the carriage were dressed in 18th century apparrel, and they each had blank expressions on their face. They seemed not to notice my presence as they continued down the alley and disappeared. I later heard that people have been seeing the ghostly carriage as far back as the early 1900s, and the stories are typically the same." The problem with viewing ghosts as the soul of a departed human is that one would have to assume in the above example (a typical ghost story) that not only does the passenger have a soul, but so would the horses, the carriage, and even their clothes, not to mention all of those lost souls that became ghosts decided to all hang out together in the afterlife doing the same thing over and over again.

The idea that what's being viewed in the ghost story isn't "ghosts" but rather an echo of some past event, sort of like a 3-D movie being played, evolved from that need to explain not ghosts as souls, but rather ghost stories as scenes taking into account all the elements involved in a typical ghost story. The mechanism that would cause an event to be recorded in the environment is never fully explained by the idea, and the media recorded on is never fully identified (which is why it's simply and ambiguously called a "Stone Tape"). But what happens is that paranormal researchers just point to the idea as making sense on the surface. Ghost stories sound like 3-D "movies" being played over and over when they're described, so paranormal researchers ask "what if that's actually what it is?"

There's no real notable explanations on the mechanism that might be involved, because everyone has their pet theories and the idea is continuously evolving. First it was magnetic stuff, like actual analog tapes, but that never really caught on. It's probably the most popular idea, but it makes the least sense, what hard-surfaced item in the environment could record grooves like on a record, and what would cause it to be played back? In modern times, especially after the 1990s, savvy paranormal researchers have latched onto David Bohm's Holographic paradigm as an explanation (again, because it sounds like a hologram). That's an obscure hypothesis though, because most paranormal researchers (majority denotes notability) aren't even aware of it.

Too much info? Sorry about that, it's the beer talking. In any case, it's an idea to explain ghost stories, pseudoscientific to say the least, but not really a hoax because the idea exists along side of actual specific hoaxes and mythologies (like the Lazarus Bowl). Too bad WP doesn't allow original research. Now I have to produce sources for the above. : ( --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 08:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You know, I was sitting up reading that with great interest (story very well told, sir), then all of a sudden I got to the beer comment. Thank heavens you wrote that - it reminded me that I'm due for some beer. Be back in a minute with a response. Antelan ^talk 08:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, much better. Well I think the story is fantastic, but when we get to the part about people having real theories about this, it makes me concerned. You know, just too many steps away from verifiable reality. But I love the historical and popular aspects of this as you've explained them. Antelan ^talk 08:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Bohm meant for his idea that the universe is a hologram to be verified (I don't even think he proposed a way of doing so). He seemed to believe it was though. Pop culture-wise: Of course it's fantastic! It's The Matrix and X-Files married in a Vegas wedding. More original research: No respectable paranormal researcher actually wants anything explained. Sure, they all say they want answers and the truth is out there, but when it comes right down to it, they prefer a good mystery over answers any day. I assume you guys showed up because of the homeopathy reference in the article. Is this really a priority on anyone's list? The basic ideas that are in there can be sourced quickly, the OR self-published synthesis can be removed, and it can be stubbed until some other time. I can source all of my OR above, but I don't really have time for that. --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 08:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I showed up thinking it was going to be good music for a Saturday night (stoned tape) but alas. I mean, I felt like I was preserving homeopathy's honor by suggesting a prod of this. But the story's too good, so if someone else wants to remove stuff, I'll let them do it. I don't have the heart to do it now. Antelan ^talk 08:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea did arrive in the 70s after all : ) To the homeopathy reference, I'd remove it based on it being a "musing", thus not-notable. Whether or not the source is reliable, if it's just the musings of the author it's not notable to the topic of the "Stone Tape" idea. --Nealparr ^{(talk to me)} 10:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)