User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal2

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[edit] DuPertuis?

I've read excerpts of her work, and I don't think wording like this

Dupertuis describes Rawat's role as Master as emerging from both theological and experiential aspects, and as not being the sole focus or generator of charisma.

is not really an accurate appraisal of her work. It sounds as if her conclusions were that he isn't a charismatic authority figure, and I don't think that's the case. Has anyone else read her? Mael-Num (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

That is as close as I could stay to the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You can add a second, alternate wording to the proposals page. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 18:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I will try, though previous attempts on my part to write improvements met with a bit of negative reception from particular editors[1]. Mael-Num (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm having a helluva time even finding the full text on this article (20+ years old and published by the University of Guam...go figure). I have access to JStor and LexisNexis, and still no dice. I'm still looking, but I'm gonna need more time.
Or maybe someone else could help me out with a copy? Someone's gotta have it, as part of that quote (the "charisma was not an impediment for some devotees" bit) doesn't appear anywhere in the online version I found at Rick Ross' place. Mael-Num (talk) 00:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a copy that I can send to anyone who emails me a request. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of what the draft may be summarinz is this paragraph:
    • Charisma in Sant Mat/Radhasoami/DLM tradition can best be understood in terms of darshan for which, according to Bharati, "absolutely no parallel" can be found "in any religious act in the West ..." (1970:161, cited in Eck, 1981:5). Darshan means "sight"—of the deity or the guru who embodies him/her, usually for the purpose of imbibing his/her divine powers or grace (Babb, 1981; Eck: 1981). It implies sight on a rich multiplicity of symbolic and spiritual levels which demonstrate a complex mix of doctrinal and mythic, perceptual and visionary, interactional and experiential dimensions in the relationship between a charismatic spiritual leader and his or her followers.
It goes on to decribe in greater detail, including the DARSHAN OF THE ABSOLUTE (meditation), the DARSHAN OF THE LIVING MASTER (the physical darshans of Prem Rawat), DARSHAN VIA THE COMMUNITY OF DEVOTEES (satsangs). I think anyone who wants to summarize it needs to read it in full. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I have the full article, Will. (any reason of THE ALL CAPS?). The material I added is related specifically to the subject being treated in this paragraph: charismatic authority. So, what is your point? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
(The caps were there because I was copying and pasting from the paper. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC))
Jossi, can you post the text you are summarizing? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
As luck would have it, my sister phoned tonight, and the academic institution she teaches at apparently pays for the JStor tier that includes sociology papers written 20 years ago in Guam (luxury!), unlike my school. So, I have a copy if you're in need, Will. Just tell me where you'd like it.
Wait...that didn't come out right. Mael-Num (talk) 02:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is the text that is summarized in the proposed text: The master in person emerged both theologically and experientially as neither the sole focus nor the unique generator of charisma. Rather he represented a conceptual link which defined and integrated a diffuse set of experiences. Continued adherence to this religion depended on acceptance of this linkage of experiences as well as continued meditational efforts to achieve them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The part I was looking for is here:
Several years of practice and much satsang among followers strengthened their competence in meditation and confidence in its results, leading for many to increasingly confirming darshan experiences and deeper belief in Guru Maharaj Ji as Satguru. But at the same time, this increased competence led many others, who tired of the restrictions and eccentricities of DLM life, to discover that they had learned to "experience God on their own and had little further need of Guru Maharaj Ji as spiritual interpreter or guide. They thus drifted away not in disillusionment but in fulfillment. (21) The very effort involved in learning to recognize charisma, then, often led to a diminishing interest in doing so.
The more I read DuPertuis' work, the sketchier she seems as a source. When an academic spouts quotes like this:
I started hallucinating, everything started moving. I felt like I was on a psychedelic, . . . and then the whole stage just became white light - I just couldn't see anything. I was completely disoriented, but I just felt so much love that it's almost too intense, and I just couldn't take it .
I start to question their objectivity as a scientist. Plus, in the previous quoted section, she clearly has no basis or rationale for saying how she knows people left in fulfillment, or that it was their ability to recognize charisma that spurred their disinterest in Rawat. She indicates no methodology to determine this, so she cannot possibly have any insights there.
I like the earlier parts where she's sythesizing a hypothesis. I'll reread this tomorrow and hopefully we can all discuss it more. I'm just saying, this seems less than ideal as an academic source. Mael-Num (talk) 03:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Are we now engaged in literary criticism? Or are we supposed to simply refer to cited material published in reputable publications? I would argue that it is the latter. What would really help, is to do the work and make proposals in the proposals page. We are at that stage in which long-winded discussions do not yield much usefulness as it relates to content. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, are we? You'd argue that what is the latter?
Oh, and Jossi...you're treading dangerously close to being uncivil. Mael-Num (talk) 04:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
No, I am not. Just tired of the long diatribes and debates that leave not much content on the table. After all, we are supposed to be writing an encyclopedia, not just engaging in endless debate, right? Look forward to your proposals. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm neither required to submit a proposal, nor disengage from debate. You are required to remain civil. Hopefully this clears up your obvious confusion. Furthermore, by your apparent confusion and admission, you must be tired. Why not take a break? You may be surprised by the progress that can be made in your absence! Mael-Num (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
In Wikipedia, we are supposed to discuss the edit and not the editor, right? So, if an editor does not provide useful text for articles, or proposes edits and material for consideration, there is nothing to discuss, is it? So from now on, I will simply ignore comments made that do not move this mediation forward, which has been put in place to make progress in the article, and not just to facilitate endless debates. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
As I have both provided useful text for articles, and proposed edits and material for consideration, I fail to see your point. Of course, you are free to (continue to) ignore any and all of my contributions, now and in the future. Mael-Num (talk) 02:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I would argue strongly for using DuPertuis as a source, unless all Sociological reference is to be abandoned. DuPertuis' clear statement of her own experience and her reports of unjudged first hand testimony is grounded in the established Sociological approach of [Qualitative research], and while Social Science is not "Science", it is certainly a discipline acceptable to most encyclopaedists. The source of difficulty that I see is whether the role of 'darshan' should or should not receive fuller explanation as a develoment of the section on charismatic leadership --Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The section is about charismatic authority and we are describing the opinions of scholars on the subject. That is exactly what we are and should be doing. Discussions about that if Social Sciences are science or not should not be part of these discussions. Discussions about the difference between hard science and soft science, are better held at Social sciences ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Indeed. A ground rule I laid down when I took on this case was civility/NPA. And, if I see fit, I'll let people know about incivility. Let's keep discussion on topic. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 20:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

DuPertuis has:

The master in person emerged both theologically and experientially as neither the sole focus nor the unique generator of charisma. (section "Discussion" - 2nd sentence of 1st paragraph)

--Francis Schonken (talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dupertuis and Schnabel

Note that DuPertuis clarifies with an example what Schnabel describes as "staging":

Western devotees reorganized the ritual by lining up the devotees beforehand, seating Guru Maharaj Ji higher up so his feet, now at chest level, would be quicker to kiss. They even experimented: once they had two lines, one passing by each foot; and once they set Guru Maharaj Ji ,and j his throne on a jeep which drove slowly by two miles of lined-up devotees. They finally settled on a long, cloth-draped blue tunnel through which devotees could file silently, leaving the world's mentality, stepping into the divine route to their guru's presence. (section "Darshan of the Living Master" - end of 1st paragraph)

--Francis Schonken (talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit protected

As no counter proposals have bee submitted, I will ask this for material to be added to the article via edit-protected template as agreed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should do it Jossi? Also, note that two users are either still blocked, or not yet aware of these precedings. Perhaps a few days should be given first. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. We shall wait for couple of days then. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, just one other thing, I'd prefer to do the editprotected requests myself. That way, I can say, "please insert proposal X into article Y per consensus at page Z.". And then, if there's disagreements, they can take the issue up with me, not a party in the case. Okay with you? Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey, wait a minute - no one agreed to this version. Is specifically asked for us to wait untoil Francis comes back from his block. Is there a hurry? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Did you miss my comment above? I said that we can wait a few days to see if there are counter proposals. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Also note that if an editor gets blocked for probation violation, there is no reason to wait for them. Editing is a privilege, not a right, which they forfeit when they violate page probation. (if a user gets blocked next for a month, will we "wait"? Of course not.) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I see no hurry. Although I bet after this case is eventually over, I will be known on Wikipedia as that guy who mediated Prem Rawat. :P. Anyway, I agree, it's best to wait until there's a clear consensus. I've also requested the users be unblocked so they can enter the discussion. (their block has expired). I think edit warring is impossible on the Prem Rawat article, don't you? Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 16:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

  • There's always an opportunity for edit warring. With Prem Rawat protected the dispute may move to another article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I have a much more positive outlook. My experience is that if there is active participation in mediation, these issues are very easily dealt with, in particular when we have article probation (which is working BTW). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oh, indeed. I feel this can be mediated well as well. I'm just saying there are other options if necessary. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 20:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I would appreciate a comment from Steve about this idea of "waiting for users to come back from blocks". My argument is above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Hmm. Well, indeed. Editing is a privelige, not a right. Now, please, read both of this and this. It's basically my full explanation of why I had the page protected. I feel that protection of the article would reduce the activity on Arbitration Enforcment. Basically, it would delay the mediation. Also, I've said before that I'm in this one for the long run, so if I become known as "that Prem Rawat mediator guy", then so be it. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 20:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • This material is highly technical. Summarizing obtuse sociologicial papers is not like deciding on whether to report a bond amount. Pushing through contentious, complicated material while an experienced, interested editor is briefly blocked doesn't seem like the best way of proceeding. If we want the best article possible then let's make sure we're making use of all resources, including editors. Unless we can get more viewpoints on this material I oppose making the edit. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I do not know what you keep pushing this point, as we have all agreed to wait for few days. BTW, you may find this material obtuse, but for me and maybe for others it is not the case. Opposing an edit on the basis of "I don't know enough about the subject" is simply antithetical to this project's aims, and we cannot force editors to make comments or propose alternative proposals, can we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • You are seeking to make an edit to a protected page which you have said you would not edit. If your proposal meets with approval from involved editors then there's no harm done. But if doesn't then the edit shouldn't be made. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry? I understand that the agreement is that any edits will be made only if there is consensus. We gauge consensus by talk page debates and discussions. And that is exaclty what these pages are for. I, or anyone else by that matter, can offer proposals for discussion, so I do not know what are you implying. Also check the arbCom case decision which does not preclude my participation in talk, or actually even editing these articles directly. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, and I'm just saying that I don't see a consensus here. The lack of an alternate proposal doesn't equal consensus for your proposal. The status quo is the alternate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Not really... See [2]], which will make things much easier. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • If Steve thinks there's a consensus favoring this version then he's welcome to say so. As for myself, I'd like to see input from more editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Sure, but if other editors decide not to contribute, there is no reason to ignore well researched material as per the proposal I offered. It includes material from three six additional sources on the subject, published in highly reputable books. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Great, give it some time and we will see how they respond, or if they respond at all. Steve Crossin (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal 2

Section is good, I tidied it up a bit. Jayen466 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I will withdraw my proposal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I find the first reference to Weberian aspects of charismatic authority in the first sentence to be too esoteric for the typical reader, and thus decrease the Readability of the article. Though we are referring to scholarly, academic material, we are not attempting to write at the same level, but to provide an article that a broad section of the public can comprehend.
Secondly, I don't think there should be a direct comparison to 'Osho', without at least prior context in the article. Would you expect someone reading about Prem Rawat for the first time on Wikipedia to know who Osho is, and why he is being compared with Rawat? 82.44.221.140 (talk) 17:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Esoteric? This is an encyclopedia, with articles such as Textual criticism (which I am currently working on to reach featured article status), as well as others such as Linnaean taxonomy that you may also call "esoteric" and hard to comprehend by the "general public". In Wikipedia articles, readers can use the wikilinks to find more information about related subject, in this case, Max Weber, Charismatic authority, and Osho. Having said that, I am sure that a better wording for the first sentence can be found to introduce readers to the subject. Any proposals? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate that relevant links to references have been provided, but IMO it is still a question whether they are of practical use to a typical reader. Let's say someone looks up this article after having a vague recollection of a young 1970s 'Guru' and wonders whatever became of him. The lead will give a nice summary, but when they get to this section, many will never have heard of the term 'Weberian', and 'turn off' at this point. Other will click on the link and then behold an entire detailed article which they must then comprehend to gain context of the paragraph in the Rawat article. Surely, it would be better if we wrote the article as 'self contained' biography, with optional links to further detail for those wishing to study the subject deeper. This is the case for most of this article, but this section is written in such a way that a reader has no choice but to understand terminology such as 'Weberian', in order to understand the section. Surely this section could be re-written to be self-explanatory, but with optional links to the academic material that do not have to be followed in order to get the 'jist' of this section? I will also await further opinions before discussing further 82.44.221.140 (talk) 18:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said, the leading sentence can be re-written for clarity and readability, so that it explanins what the section is about. I will try and re-write that sentence, or maybe others would like to stab at it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
See User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal2#Proposal 3. Would the leading sentence I added address your concern? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes - that's great. The leading sentence gives enough context to enable the reader to understand the section without having to research Weber. Thanks!. If I was to be picky I would suggest re-arranging the order of sentences so that you are first referring to the subject (Rawat) then adding the bit explaining Weber for context.82.44.221.140 (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I used Proposal #4's leading sentence to start the paragraph, continuing with the rest: User:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat/Proposal2 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The sentences "...describes Rawat's role as a Master as emerging from both theological and experiential aspects, and as not being the sole focus or generator of charisma; she also observed that charisma did not prevent some devotees from discovering that they had learned the "experience of God" on their own, and to drift away, not in disillusionment but in fulfillment.[14] ...David G. Bromley describes the difficulty of a charismatic leader in proving to be above normal human failings such as not to suffer ill health or indulge in worldly pursuits. He presents Rawat's marriage as such a situation, which is then exploited by the media to discredit charismatic claimants in the eyes of the general public" frankly do not make much sense as written. They need a lot of work by someone who has English as a first language and who understands what the hell the original authors were trying to say. Is there such a person here? Rumiton (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton, that is what Bromley states, and we are attributing that opinion to him. That is all we do in WP articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geaves 2006

As you might have remarked on your watchlists I've been trying to work with Geaves' material this morning, that is: Geaves, Ron. "Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji)" in Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies - Volume 2, 2006, ISBN 978-1-4196-2696-5, pp. 44-62. Web copy at asanas.org.uk

Now, there's something I'm not very clear about how to place it. As it pertains to the charismatic leadership and routinization topics relevant to the "Proposal2" page, I'd appreciate any help offered:

(p. 56) This brings the paper to the issue of authority. Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques.

  • I cannot help but see the following as placing some sort of a requirement: "Before I give you Knowledge, I will ask you for three promises. [...]"; including a prohibition: "The third promise I will ask for is not to reveal these techniques to anyone. [...]" [3]
  • Then, Geaves also has been active to demonstrate the continuity of tradition that leads to what Rawat is today, e.g. Geaves, Ron (2002), "From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (Parampara)", paper delivered to the 27th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, Regents Park College, Oxford, 22–24 March 2002.

Far from wanting to override the assertions of an established professor with OR, I'm just asking a question: how do we tackle this when writing an encyclopedia? Obviously, one of the possible answers to that question could be: "NOT", let's leave that fishy business aside. But wouldn't that be a bit of an unsatisfactory answer? --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

We can introduce that material as needed, and I see no contradiction where you see one, or anything "fishy" as you assert. Asking for promise is not a prohibition, IMO. In fact, and as you probably know by now, there are those that chose not to abide by their earlier promise. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Also note the use of outer requirements or prohibitions, that in my understanding, refers to external changes such as changes in way of living, adopting certain external practices such as vegetarianism, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I remarked the "outer" specification, and that is one of the details I'd still be inclined to call fishy (sorry, maybe I should find another word), anyway: bureaucratic and traditional leadership (the other two leadership types in Weberian sociology) are about "outer" requirements and rules (e.g. "Die bureaukratische Herrschaft ist spezifisch rational im Sinn der Bindung an diskursiv analysierbare Regeln, die charismatische spezifisch irrational im Sinn der Regelfremdheit. [...]" - my bolding) [4]; nonetheless a charismatic leader can ask things from his followers too, according to Weber with only one central characteristic: the requirements induced by the charismatic leader are "new" ("Material aber gilt für alle genuin charismatische Herrschaft der Satz: »es steht geschrieben, – ich aber sage euch«; der genuine Prophet sowohl wie der genuine Kriegsfürst wie jeder genuine Führer überhaupt verkündet, schafft, fordert neue Gebote [...]" - Weber's emphasis). Weber does not indicate that requirements or prohibitions by a charismatic leader are characteristically "outer".
Geaves is messing things up. Sorry about that. I'd agree to quote him in Wikipedia as far as his RS status goes, but that's it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Francis, sharply spotted, it’s an inconsistency in Geaves’ writing I hadn’t noted previously. There is however a bigger problem and that is that the proposed text commences with a contextualisation within Weberian terms – but the Geaves quote comes from a paper in which Geaves challenges the applicability of Weberian analysis to the article subject. For clarity the text needs to specify that Geaves is disagreeing with those scholars who reference Weber with approval – which then raises the question - if Geaves is a lone voice is it appropriate to even use him ? Previously it had been agreed that Geaves would only be used for non controversial references. As Geaves is a subject to be mediated perhaps it would simply be best to omit him from all controversial contexts until there is consensus on his use in all the Rawat related articles ? --Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Re. "the Geaves quote comes from a paper in which Geaves challenges the applicability of Weberian analysis to the article subject" - I fail to see where Geaves would be doing that in that article. Please clarify.
Geaves is confused on how to apply the analysis, but that's different from challenging the validity of such analysis.
On a side note, note that your analysis here is also partly confused on how to apply the sociological analysis, in that you seem to attach too much importance to Rawat having a board seat or an executive function in his organisations in order to be classified as a charismatic leader... A charismatic leader would typically not need such bureaucratic entanglements to exert his or her leadership: such arguments miss the point.
Imho, Rawat is still, to a certain degree, a charismatic leader. Maybe less than he was before: routinization (and I see Geaves as someone heavily contributing to the routinization efforts) can not be upheld ad infinitum without ultimately leading to a more bureaucratic type of leadership. But that analysis of mine is of no relevance to the appreciation of Geaves, a professor, as a reliable source in Wikipedia. Maybe we could limit his use as a source to strictly "religion" topics, as that is his speciality, while, for instance, sociology clearly isn't. Even if he has such other topics on his resume, see 2nd paragraph of Ron Geaves. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Surely Geaves is arguing that Weber’s theory of charisma does not apply to Rawat, except in the very limited sense that (according to Geaves) Rawat is antagonistic to tradition:

Prem Rawat’s teachings make no reference to any traditional authority, neither person nor text. The shift in language, directly appealing to human understandings of their own existential dilemma, removed the earlier and more Indian- orientated style of a traditional Sant idiom that could be grounded in reference to previous sacred figures and texts, providing authenticity by comparison and asserting that the message conformed to the ‘real’ meaning of sacred text. This brings the paper to the issue of authority. Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques. The simple axiom, “If you like it, practice it, if you don’t, try something else,” is applied on frequent occasions in his public discourses. Neither does Prem Rawat regard himself as an exemplary leader, a role often ascribed to religious founders. I don’t see how this does not stand in direct contradiction to what the other sources are saying.

In respect of my criticism of Geaves, it is quite possible that I’m confused about the application of Weberian theory – but I don’t think in that particular case that I am; however others have also questioned the implications of authoritarian versus charismatic leadership aspects of that article so some form of amendment would be desirable if only for the sake of clarity. I fully accept that Rawat is in Weberian terms (and in commonly understood usage) a charismatic leader. Regarding Geaves academic standing as relevant as a WP:reference, Geaves is not as such a ‘religious scholar’ in that WP redirects Religious Scholar to Theology, Geaves being neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but more closely a ‘sociologist of Religion’, – this is from a personal webpage published by Geaves some years ago. “ I do have a personal position. I am an 'experiential essentialist' in the line of Professor Ninian Smart, Professsor Geoffrey Parrinder and other eminent pioneers of my discipline. I am very proud and honoured to follow in their footsteps, especially after being awarded my Chair in Religious Studies this year. My ethics are simple - the study of religion is a critical valuation that is combined with a sensitive grasp of world views. There is nothing in the article that contradicts this position.” And from Ninian Smart “Religious Studies as a non-confessional, methodologically agnostic discipline takes its place in the secular academy, where it draw heavily on anthropology, sociology, psychology, history, archeology, and other disciplines. At bottom, it has a place in the public or state sector because, as an aspect of human experience, it is also the study of people--of what they believe, why they believe and act as they do, both individually and within society.” Geaves’ degree was in Humanities and his Phd clearly followed a ‘social sciences’ approach, so it is difficult to argue that sociology is not his ‘specialty’, albeit that he has specialised in the study of religion.

I think your identification of Geaves as “someone heavily contributing to the routinization efforts” is relevant to the question of using Geaves as source for the Rawat articles because it sets very clearly Geaves own role as an interested party in the Rawat history. The same area of problem would arise if Joseph Goebbels was to be quoted as if he were a disinterested source in a biography of Hitler. In any event your Proposal 4. avoids all the major problems and although I think the Pilarscyk quote was useful perhaps it is simply safer to go with what you have.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to pass opinions about scholars, why are we putting Geaves under a microscope while avoiding scrutinity of other scholars? This discussion is better had off-wiki. Here we attribute significant opinions to those that hold them, and nothing more. 16:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jossi (talk • contribs)


Please sign your comments. The answer to your question is that Geaves is a recognised area requiring mediation and therefore inevitably part of the ongoing discussion regarding the Prem Rawat articles see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-04-20_Divine_Light_Mission#Issues_to_be_Mediated. If you believe other quoted sources require examination then you are free to place your arguments for that on the relevant talk page. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)