User talk:Stephen2nd
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[DIEU ET MON DROIT: TALK]
Holy Bible Quote.
…we may rest secure and supported within the truth and innocency of a good conscience, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavours against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.”Stephen2nd (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008
[ATTRIBUTED ARMS: TALK]
A.C. Fox-Davis: Art of Heraldry references.
You emphasize; the rise of heraldry; pre-dating heraldry; pre-heraldic Kings, as such; pre- C12th attributed arms are imaginary. The correct term for this usage is; “heralds.”
Heraldry is everything within the duties of the rise of heralds from circa C12th; Armory is a science of arms; rules and laws governing use, display, meaning, and knowledge of pictured signs and emblems appertaining to shield, helmet or banner, from circa 4000BC. The pre-C12th science of Armory is not imaginary it is the "Shorthand of History".(AC F-D)
Arms were attributed to many kings pre-dating; “C12th Heralds” including Edward the Confessor. The Anglo-Saxon pennies from the earliest period of issue till the reign of Edward the Confessor have nearly all a cross on them. In the times of Richard II, heralds assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor in reference to the reverse of King Edward’s coins known as the “Sovereign.” It is so called by reason of the King represented on the obverse side seated on his throne, with Sceptre in his right hand and Orb surmounted by a cross in the left. The reverse of King Edward’s coin had the angled cross with four birds.
A five bird’s achievement of arms assigned to Richard II may be in devotion to the Saint. Historically, it seems more relevant this attribution pertained to regnal descriptions of the later Edward’s I and II &c., being a cause of the “Saint” (canonized 1161) and later; “the confessor” descriptions. The College of Arms (R. 22, 67) and (in Latin) the Abby booke of newborough, state Richard II also assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor with two Ostrich feathers and the Royal Crest to Thomas de Mowbray. The comparison between the arms of King Edward (b1004/5: r1024-1066); Thomas de Mowbray (*figs 692, 699, 823, 824) and Arms of England (1195-1340); shows the scientific and historical armorial link between the pre-1066 Anglo-Saxon Kings and post-1066 Norman Kings &c.Stephen2nd (talk) 00:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
What would you suggest to address these concerns? Gimmetrow 04:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
To address these concerns, it is relevant to note that many books are written by those not having complete knowledge of their subject, or for ulterior motives. Some statement may appear in a text book, copied into book after book, and accepted as correct, when it is not. In addressing my own concerns; I used my skills; (Electronic circuitry & US scholarships student: Computer logic, flow-charts & Philosophy logic; 3.5 GPA. ‘79/’80) in 20 years of cross-referencing all of Judge AC.F-D writings and illustrations with the illustrations in ‘Fairburn’s Crests,’ ‘Complete Peerage’s,’ genealogical and York Minster records &c. Unfortunately, for many reasons, these research investigations are not published, per se.
Kudos, as an article provocateur, yours is indeed a good article, especially for discussion. I accept the concept that sceptisism in heraldry, and indeed, histories and sciences exists, morover, that some (but not all) attributed Arms/Coat of Arms/Heraldry, are imaginary. But, good research and investigation, into what were previously classed as fables, myths, legends and falsehoods, constantly goes on, scientifically and historically, determining these previous imaginations into present day facts, and every day adds to our knowledge. PS: Congrats on your 2nd anniversary as a Wikepedian :)Stephen2nd (talk) 16:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess I don't quite see what you're getting at. These arms are called "attributed" (in French, "imaginary") because these arms were, as far as we know, not used by the individual, although they were often based on something associated with the individual. Thus there really was a coin minted during the Edward's reign (and this origin is mentioned in the article). That's actually one historical value of attributed arms - they reveal what people of the time actually knew about the individual they were assigning arms. Gimmetrow 22:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Gimmetrow. What I'm getting at is: Do PC historians use “imaginary” to evade answers to questions of non-PC historic facts? My point being, irrelevant of the semantics of “attributed;” in French as “imaginary”, as meaning in English; existing only in the imagination. Edwards Arms were not imaginary. AoH; p97. Fig 201. (M.S. Harl, 5805, f, 392): Armorial Bearings of Thomas de Holland: “Azure, a cross flory between five martlets or.” Being the arms of Edward the Confessor. This is a difinitive statement of fact by A.C F-D, without the use of the term “attributed.” Having said as much, I would be most pleased if you or anyone could offer any opinions to these non-PC questions on the history of these Edwards arms.
Richard II, Mowbray’s and Holland’s, use of five martlets, with the original Edward’s achievement of four martlets, suggests an existance of a prior; three, two and one martlet. However, there are no known Saxon kings prior to King Edward, depicting such martlets. Edwards four martlets may suggest 62 year old Edward had four heirs as his descendants, in line with your statement of; attributed arms used as in the arms of their descendants. My own corroborated A.C. F-D research, may even suggest in the magic of heraldry, that these 1st, 2nd and 3rd symbols, may represent the symbolic origin of the Royal “Standard.” { -(1,2,3.)- ST a ND a RD-} Also suggesting that the fourth or (4th) TH, may symbolise the Cipher/Cypher of KING + HT = KNIGHT. Per se ? RegardsStephen2nd (talk) 14:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[CLAN CAMPBELL: TALK]
Celtic and Norman origins.
Hi. Should this important text be included in the Clan Campbell lineage?
The Campbell’s have both Celtic and Norman origins. Anciently named; O’Duibhne or MacDiarmid. [NB: dia = god; armaid = of arms] Accounts state that a Malcolm of the clan went as a widower to Norman France where he married an heiress of the Beauchamp family and adopted that name. A son Archibald accompanied the Conqueror in 1066 and became founder to several English lines. (Campbell. p55: Collins Guide: Scots Kith and King: A Guide to the Clans and Surnames of Scotland. ISBN: 0004356659)Stephen2nd (talk) 15:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the Campbells are considered to be originally O’Duibhnes. I think the speculation is the were originally of Strathclyde British descent. "Tradition holds that the first of the Campbell ancestors (still not yet called Campbell) who came into Argyll married Eva, daughter of Paul an Sporran and the heiress of the O'Duibne tribe on northwestern Lochawe". However, the Campbells first appear in the 13th century, "The first of the name Cambel (the original spelling) who can be found in the surviving records was one who owned lands near Stirling in 1263. The earliest written date for a Cambel in Argyll is that for Duncan Dubh, landowner in Kintyre in 1293," [1]. --Celtus (talk) 07:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Celtus, thanks for the Scottish O’Duibne marriage references. When cataloging Clans, family tribes &/or other group collectives, in genealogical, time line and armorial terms. My database record is quoted surviving records; sourced, researched and verified as fact. Article Clan Campbell stated the O.Duibne origin. As corroborated by my Collins Guide corroborating the genealogical records of O’Duibne &/or Ui Duibne were Mac Diarmaid: Rockingham: Patent 12 James I.; illuminated patent by indented Deed Dated 1640, family patrimony of Mac Dermot lineage, including 389 quarters, extending over eight centuries. [NB: Within and without parameters of: “Arms of the Realm and Ancient Local Princip-alities of Scotland, Kingdom of Scots: Angus; Atholl; Buchan; Caithness; Carrick; Fife; Galloway; The Lennox; Mar; March; Menteith; Province of Moray; Ross and Strathern.“] Last record: per se as “Driven from his ancient patrimony during the Cromwellian Wars.” NB: McDermott – Beauchamp: Or, three Cross-Crosslets: Arms of William Walpole PM.
PS. If anyone has any Dermot; Donald; Moubray; genealogy; heraldic; patent; references, I have a few Campbell and other clan files, including speculative and tradition categories. In the lists things you must do before you die, mine own, is to see this illuminated patent. Regards.Stephen2nd (talk) 19:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
